[PS2] Ace Combat Thread (a.k.a. We Do Not Have Air Superiority)

Originally Posted by Karasu

free shipping at yesasia only applies to items that are over 40$ I think...

I'm not complaining, it's only two bucks and it comes within a week, so it's all good.


EDIT: I stand corrected...I dont think i'm paying for any shipping. Just looked at the order online, and it says 0.00 at the shipping fee. Nice.

Yea, currently it's for any orders over $25 USD, it's apart of their 8th anniversary promotion (hell of a deal, gotta import that FF7AC Reunion files book).

http://us.yesasia.com/en/specials/an...ary/index.aspx

Anyway, what's bonus for the first press edition? Cause I didn't even know there was one for AC0.

FELIPE NO

The problem is how slow free shipping is. I dunno if it's that big a problem in the US but up her ein Canackland it can be a complete and utter bitch. Sometimes taking 2 or more weeks.

EMS all the way.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by RayPrower

The Yukes didn't play an active role, but more of a behind-the-scenes role, supplying the allies with weapons and other assorted supplies. The Axe & Hammer briefing infrastucture you see before each mission? Guess who made it.

That's right, Yuktobania. It's a play on Sickle and Hammer (since Yuktobania is the AC0 world equivalent of Russia). It's also ironic since the Axe & Hammer aren't really precision instruments in any sense of the word.

I did notice the Yuke colors in the interface, both in-game and outside it...it's a nice touch, but with AC5 on record as telling us that "Osea and Yuktobania were allies in the war," I was really expecting to see them come in and save the Oseans during a botched op like Cannibal, or at the very least contribute a few units in one of the later missions. As the story stands now, we're apparently supposed to believe that Belkan vengeance entails nuking not only you, but the guys who sold you a pirated copy of Powerpoint.

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Most of the Grey Men were disgruntled ex-Belkans who worked their way into other countries over the years. Shoot down Ashley (GRABACR) in Mission 10M and read his Assault Record. It plainly states he joined the Osean Air Force shortly after the Belkan War ended. Also recall that Ashley was the one Pops talked to over the radio in Final Option from AC5 about the Belkan War. Ashley shot down Pops and Bartlett, got shot down by the GALM team, then joined the Osean Air Force after the war to get into the country.

It's obvious that there's a heavy Belkan influence to the Grey Men, but the head of North Osea Grunder's involvement suggested a broader scope of members in the military-industrial complex, what Valeris so eloquently describes in Star Trek VI when she identifies the leaders of that film's conspiracy as "everyone who stands to lose from peace." The Grey Men were a golden narrative opportunity, easily the most fascinating plot hook to come out of AC5, and Namco simply ignored them as completely as Yuktobania.

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Hamilton's story was explained in AC5. The other GRABACR/OFNIR guys just followed their flight leads into it. So how did the Grey Men come about eh? I wonder, maybe it has something to do with the whole "infiltration and revenge" thing Genette mentioned in AC5? Proof you don't pay attention to the story.

Now that was uncalled for. If I didn't pay attention to the story, I wouldn't give a damn about the various plot holes, omissions and non sequiturs that it reveals on closer examination; I'd be over on ACskies, surrounded by people whose deepest discussions of the plot are complaints about how they can't see the mushroom cloud in Stage of Apocalypse.

That said, I do give ACZ credit for hinting at many of the answers, what you and I both suspect happened behind the scenes. It's just frustrating to know that so many good questions will likely go unanswered, their screen time given to Hell Bound and PJ and the Hresvelgr. ACZ raises far more questions than it answers, and unless it's the middle chapter of a trilogy we've been left with a plateful of loose ends.

Originally Posted by Karasu

Just because I say "Bullshit" doesn't mean in anyway that i'm overreacting.

No, that'd just be the way you've been ad hominem on me from the moment you first posted a reply. Check your tone, Karasu: it started at derogatory and it's gone downhill from there, although I don't believe I've ever insulted you.

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But you're telling me though it's an embarrasment to love AC5 over 4 because of the whole 'peace' thing.

No, I'm telling you that it's an embarrassment to love AC5 over AC04 because the whole 'peace' thing was much more maturely handled in AC04 than AC5. I consider both to be honorable narratives that make powerful statements against war, but AC04 achieves that objective without draining my suspension of disbelief like an inconvenient wetlands area, filling the void with verbal diarrhea from my wingmen and building a peace park atop that shaky foundation FTW.

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I'm sorry...but we do live in a world where there is a fake, vain war going on. I bet the writers of AC5 kinda played off of that, and brought their message in. I heard it, and I find it to be a positive message that should take heed.

You don't say. I guess it's a good thing that Namco incorporates these barely concealed parables about current events into the series, because how else would the pathetically stupid and deliberately ignorant members of its target audience even know about, let alone frame and discuss issues like Iraq? Now, if only ACZ had more closely resembled Sudan...

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And if you forget....the Oseans have the Osean Air DEFENSE Force. Meaning, they attack when attacked upon. They are not agressors, and I found that to be rather noble. A superpower country such as Osea, plays diplomacy and defense before a battle and war.

An Air Defense Force that not only maintains a legitimately albeit supremely expensive network of air bases and aircraft capable of unaided intercepts, but has also wasted billions more taxpayer dollars to make its nation's borders bristle with redundant surface-to-air missiles capable of bringing down an SR-71? An Air Defense Force that encourages mercenary aggression by paying frontline fighter pilots up to $60,000 per sortie on a commission basis for each enemy kill, presumably with the money it saves by not employing humans to make shoot/no-shoot decisions on potential targets acquired by its SAM grid? Interesting definition of nobility.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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No, that'd just be the way you've been ad hominem on me from the moment you first posted a reply. Check your tone, Karasu: it started at derogatory and it's gone downhill from there, although I don't believe I've ever insulted you.

You can tell my tone on the internet? That's very perceptive of you. However, my 'tone' and attitude are not dergatory at all. I have in no way insulted you, or whatever you think I did. Don't make this something that it isn't, and don't make e-drama ok?

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No, I'm telling you that it's an embarrassment to love AC5 over AC04 because the whole 'peace' thing was much more maturely handled in AC04 than AC5. I consider both to be honorable narratives that make powerful statements against war, but AC04 achieves that objective without draining my suspension of disbelief like an inconvenient wetlands area, filling the void with verbal diarrhea from my wingmen and building a peace park atop that shaky foundation FTW.

Peace was not a strong point in that game. Like I said before...it was a narration in the hands of a boy who was in the war. The story in general didn't have a 'This land needs to be at peace' feel at all. It was all about the occupation and the legendary pilot who fights Yellow 13, in the eyes of a child.

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You don't say. I guess it's a good thing that Namco incorporates these barely concealed parables about current events into the series, because how else would the pathetically stupid and deliberately ignorant members of its target audience even know about, let alone frame and discuss issues like Iraq? Now, if only ACZ had more closely resembled Sudan...

Now who's getting an attitude... Christ dude.

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An Air Defense Force that not only maintains a legitimately albeit supremely expensive network of air bases and aircraft capable of unaided intercepts, but has also wasted billions more taxpayer dollars to make its nation's borders bristle with redundant surface-to-air missiles capable of bringing down an SR-71? An Air Defense Force that encourages mercenary aggression by paying frontline fighter pilots up to $60,000 per sortie on a commission basis for each enemy kill, presumably with the money it saves by not employing humans to make shoot/no-shoot decisions on potential targets acquired by its SAM grid? Interesting definition of nobility.

This country is a super power country, I would think they have the money to have such technology for their defense, I would think. President Harling BTW cut their defense budget for the Mass Driver, so don't think they just wasting money with offensive weapons non-stop. And that mission is an escort mission dude, try not to look too hard in it. It's a game mission. Where did you get mercenaries from? Osea has no mercenaries at all, it's Ustio who had them.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Karasu

You can tell my tone on the internet? That's very perceptive of you. However, my 'tone' and attitude are not dergatory at all. I have in no way insulted you, or whatever you think I did. Don't make this something that it isn't, and don't make e-drama ok?

I'm trying not to. It's just that I keep raising arguments in support of my points, and instead of rebutting them you've responded by suggesting that I'm a fanboy, a warmonger, and ignorant of what "OADF" stands for. Eventually it gets frustrating.

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Peace was not a strong point in that game. Like I said before...it was a narration in the hands of a boy who was in the war.

Exactly! Peace was one of several points, but framing the story from the perspective of a child who effectively lost his father to you above Farbanti leads to the same places AC5 does...how many other fathers do you take away in that war to become a hero?

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The story in general didn't have a 'This land needs to be at peace' feel at all.

And here we come to perhaps the primary difference I've seen between us: you prefer the pacifist component of the story obvious and paramount, don't you? For me, AC5 is a relentless tearjerker of a plot, the kind of story that makes me cry the first time I see it unfold, but becomes annoying in hindsight as I realize just how calculated that effect was.

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Now who's getting an attitude... Christ dude.

What, you don't think educating gamers about current events through the medium of Ace Combat would be a good thing? If it's a positive message in AC5, then why not all subsequent entries in the series?

Unless, of course, you dare to presume that the people who play these games are intelligent enough to read the news, perhaps even intelligent enough to recognize the Iraq parable and find it not only condescending but redundant alongside the game's already overwhelmingly pacifist theme?

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This country is a super power country, I would think they have the money to have such technology for their defense, I would think.

So just because the USA-sorry, Osea-can afford to make its borders resemble those of the Soviet Union means it should?

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President Harling BTW cut their defense budget for the Mass Driver, so don't think they just wasting money with offensive weapons non-stop.

Never said they were. SAMs are defensive weapons, after all, but the indiscriminate way they're deployed in Handful of Hope suggests that the OADF is at best dangerously incompetent and at worst merely a check-signing agency for the defense contractors.

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And that mission is an escort mission dude, try not to look too hard in it. It's a game mission.

Ah, but you're the one inexplicably holding up the OADF as a force somehow more noble than ISAF or the UAF, when all three begin their respective games on the defensive and the OADF is the only one not fighting for its very existence. So when the facts become inconvenient to that theory, I'm at fault for pointing them out?

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Where did you get mercenaries from? Osea has no mercenaries at all, it's Ustio who had them.

Look the word up; it also has an adjective form.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by tajisdurmin

I did notice the Yuke colors in the interface, both in-game and outside it...it's a nice touch, but with AC5 on record as telling us that "Osea and Yuktobania were allies in the war," I was really expecting to see them come in and save the Oseans during a botched op like Cannibal, or a t the very least contribute a few units in one of the later missions. As the story stands now, we're apparently supposed to believe that Belkan vengeance entails nuking not only you, but the guys who sold you a pirated copy of Powerpoint.

Well we can assume the Yukes gave the allies enough military resources and support to help the allies drive back the Belkans first sweeping offense that caught everyone off gaurd. That alone would be reason enough to seek revenge. And besides, Belka has always been for gaining as much land, power, and influence (along with starting as many wars) as possible. Why not take the opportunity if it lies in front of them?

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It's obvious that there's a heavy Belkan influence to the Grey Men, but the head of North Osea Grunder's involvement suggested a broader scope of members in the military-industrial complex, what Valeris so eloquently describes in Star Trek VI when she identifies the leaders of that film's conspiracy as "everyone who stands to lose from peace." The Grey Men were a golden narrative opportunity, easily the most fascinating plot hook to come out of AC5, and Namco simply ignored them as completely as Yuktobania.

I think the Grey Men weren't as interesting a storypiece as the main war itself. The underlying tones of why each individual joined I guess, but then you'd be trying to stretch the game across too many storylines and make Ace Combat something it isn't.

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Now that was uncalled for. If I didn't pay attention to the story, I wouldn't give a damn about the various plot holes, omissions and non sequiturs that it reveals on closer examination; I'd be over on ACskies, surrounded by people whose deepest discussions of the plot are complaints about how they can't see the mushroom cloud in Stage of Apocalypse.

My apologies.

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That said, I do give ACZ credit for hinting at many of the answers, what you and I both suspect happened behind the scenes. It's just frustrating to know that so many good questions will likely go unanswered, their screen time given to Hell Bound and PJ and the Hresvelgr. ACZ raises far more questions than it answers, and unless it's the middle chapter of a trilogy we've been left with a plateful of loose ends.

I would love to take this as an opportunity to give the Aces team a third and final chance to wrap up the story. If that's the direction they take then I'm all for it.

What Zero did portray well enough was an overall picture of Belkas past aggressions, showed us the role several players from AC5 played during their pasts, and in general attempted to show us the truth behind what pissed the Belkans off so bad that they'd seek revenge fifteen years later, and if you look at it that way than Zero accomplished everything it set out to do.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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I'm trying not to. It's just that I keep raising arguments in support of my points, and instead of rebutting them you've responded by suggesting that I'm a fanboy, a warmonger, and ignorant of what "OADF" stands for. Eventually it gets frustrating.

No, no and no. All I said was I don't get why people fanboy over that game when clearly in terms of story...AC5 was leaps beyond it. Never did I call you a warwonger, and never did I call you ignorant. All I did was bring up how the Osean air force is more of a defense force, than offensive. Seriously...cut it out, it's pissing me off.

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Exactly! Peace was one of several points, but framing the story from the perspective of a child who effectively lost his father to you above Farbanti leads to the same places AC5 does...how many other fathers do you take away in that war to become a hero?

In my opinion, I dont think the boy saw Yellow 13 as a father to him. And to be honest...if I knew that Yellow 13 caused my parents to die by him shooting down an enemy of his, I wouldn't 'bide my time' and then just accept him just because he played the same song his Dad did on guitar. But oh well...it's a video game story, not a big deal. It's all good.

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And here we come to perhaps the primary difference I've seen between us: you prefer the pacifist component of the story obvious and paramount, don't you? For me, AC5 is a relentless tearjerker of a plot, the kind of story that makes me cry the first time I see it unfold, but becomes annoying in hindsight as I realize just how calculated that effect was.

I prefer all of it...the pacifism, the battle, the action, the twists, the epic-ness. Everything. To me, it was one of the more epic games with a posititve message, both visually and through the script.

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What, you don't think educating gamers about current events through the medium of Ace Combat would be a good thing? If it's a positive message in AC5, then why not all subsequent entries in the series?

Unless, of course, you dare to presume that the people who play these games are intelligent enough to read the news, perhaps even intelligent enough to recognize the Iraq parable and find it not only condescending but redundant alongside the game's already overwhelmingly pacifist theme?

Actually, I find most of the people who play this game [besides majority of people here], are flat-out, right wing, pro-war, kill kill kill type of people [aka, most of ACSkies]. So they for the most part...don't see the connection.

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So just because the USA-sorry, Osea-can afford to make its borders resemble those of the Soviet Union means it should?

Well who fucking knows what kind of neighbors they have in that world. We don't know a thing about it, only it's wars and semi-politics of the wars. Don't look so much into one mission, damnit man....*rolleyes and sighs*

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Ah, but you're the one inexplicably holding up the OADF as a force somehow more noble than ISAF or the UAF, when all three begin their respective games on the defensive and the OADF is the only one not fighting for its very existence. So when the facts become inconvenient to that theory, I'm at fault for pointing them out?

When the fuck did I say they were more noble than the other air forces we've seen so far? And I don't even know what your question is about it man, be more elaborative.

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Look the word up; it also has an adjective form.

Don't get frickin' cocky with me, got it? In no way does the term or adjective have ANYTHING do with Osea's Air Defense force.


I think in all honesty, you are looking way too hard into this game, especially with the info we have, that isn't very expanding in their universe. It's a pity we don't have the info from the Japanese sites, because it seems they put a lot of work into it, and I bet those would shed a lot of light onto our un-answered questions.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Karasu

No, no and no. All I said was I don't get why people fanboy over that game when clearly in terms of story...AC5 was leaps beyond it. Never did I call you a warwonger, and never did I call you ignorant. All I did was bring up how the Osean air force is more of a defense force, than offensive. Seriously...cut it out, it's pissing me off.

"People" fanboying off AC04 presumably includes me, in no small part because that happens to be accurate, albeit for reasons beyond the plot which I've enumerated. You didn't say those other things outright, no, but you've implied them:

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How sick is that? Would you want a war based on such superficial things? Lives wasted because of old war vendettas from years ago?

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And if you forget....the Oseans have the Osean Air DEFENSE Force.

I suppose I owe you an apology on that last one for implying I'm forgetful, not ignorant.

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In my opinion, I dont think the boy saw Yellow 13 as a father to him. And to be honest...if I knew that Yellow 13 caused my parents to die by him shooting down an enemy of his, I wouldn't 'bide my time' and then just accept him just because he played the same song his Dad did on guitar. But oh well...it's a video game story, not a big deal. It's all good.

I'd like to think I wouldn't do that either, but the kid was damn young and thrust into a series of events that would be traumatic even for an adult. If anything, Yellow 13 became a father figure to him through sheer default, but the attachment was certainly there: why else would he choose to follow 13 west from San Salvacion?

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I prefer all of it...the pacifism, the battle, the action, the twists, the epic-ness. Everything. To me, it was one of the more epic games with a posititve message, both visually and through the script.

As do I, although one of my issues with AC5 is that it's a sick joke to constantly discuss pacifism with your wingmen while you're killing people. I asked you that question because the main thing I've heard you say against AC04 is that its plot is insufficiently pacifist, which strikes me as strange in that all three PS2 games' plots revolve around you building a heroic reputation by becoming phenomenally efficient at killing people. There's an inherent conflict within the series between the themes of pacifism and heroism, a conflict which each game addresses differently: AC04 compartmentalizes the pacifist and heroic parts of its story, AC5 makes you a war hero who comes to fight for peace, and ACZ tries to remove morality from the equation by casting you as a mercenary. In my opinion AC04 takes the least confusing route, as AC5 suggests that the ends justify the means and ACZ not only removes your theoretical ability to choose sides, it assumes that you choose the side that's worst for business...why would a mercenary want a quick peace?

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Actually, I find most of the people who play this game [besides majority of people here], are flat-out, right wing, pro-war, kill kill kill type of people [aka, most of ACSkies]. So they for the most part...don't see the connection.

Stop me if I'm wrong, Karasu, but you seem to be saying one of two very unpleasant things here: either

1) Exactly what I said about preaching within the game's plot, only without the sarcastic jest: blatant parables about current events within the plot are in fact necessary to correct the presumed intellectual and/or moral failings of the game's target audience.

or

2) That the presence or absence of said parables is a moot point, because the game's target audience is unable to comprehend them anyway.

Either way, that's an extremely dim view of the typical Ace Combat player, one which I have to vehemently refute because I've seen so many of them behave otherwise. I don't think I ever saw the words "Democrat" or "Republican" used on AC04's GameFAQs board; all we ever talked about were the ever-faster times and ever-higher scores we logged on the game's missions, the techniques we used to do so and the black magic our Japanese counterparts must have used to get scores 500 points higher than anything we'd ever done. To this day AC.net/ACskies is the only heavily politicized community I've seen this game spawn...as vocal as it's become, I have to consider it the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps it's idealistic of me, but I prefer to think there's a great silent majority of people out there who play Ace Combat and understand its underlying message without such measures.

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Well who fucking knows what kind of neighbors they have in that world. We don't know a thing about it, only it's wars and semi-politics of the wars. Don't look so much into one mission, damnit man....*rolleyes and sighs*

Oh, there's a dozen ways we could retcon or dismiss even a project like the Osea AA system whose scope is matched only by its idiocy...but it's a glaring counterexample to the point at hand. Besides, I'd actually like to hear your argument about the OADF's nobility, if and when you care to make it.

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When the fuck did I say they were more noble than the other air forces we've seen so far? And I don't even know what your question is about it man, be more elaborative.

That was an inference of mine, taken from the fact that we were discussing the relative merits of AC04 and AC5 when you said you found the OADF noble. I still question that statement, though: do you really think lining a border with thousands of SAM launchers that automatically fire on anything except craft with Osean IFF signals is noble? For my part, the only specifically noble thing I see about the OADF is its name; if names alone conferred nobility, the moral center of the globe would be the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

And I can't help but point out that for a noble force, the OADF has some serious retention issues with active-duty personnel...

Recent Ace Combat air forces, ranked by number of known pilot defectors:
ISAF: 0 squadrons, 0 pilots
UAF: 0 squadrons, 1 pilot (Pixy)
OADF: 3 squadrons, 21 pilots (Wizard 1-8, Sorceror 1-8, Ashley and company in 8492, Hamilton)

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Don't get frickin' cocky with me, got it? In no way does the term or adjective have ANYTHING do with Osea's Air Defense force.

But if you knew "mercenary" could be used as an adjective, then why did you pretend to be dense and ask where I got mercenaries from? And again, how is it noble and not mercenary that the OADF pays you a bounty for every single enemy you eliminate, regardless of its threat level to you or the mission? Just about the only way Iraq could look worse than it does today would be if if we paid soldiers that way.

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I think in all honesty, you are looking way too hard into this game, especially with the info we have, that isn't very expanding in their universe. It's a pity we don't have the info from the Japanese sites, because it seems they put a lot of work into it, and I bet those would shed a lot of light onto our un-answered questions.

I do take a hard look at things; it's called critical thinking, and it's a gift I'm glad I have. My only objective when I mentioned my old Osean-nuke theory was to point out missed opportunities in ACZ...since then I've gone into detail about my problems with that game's plot, but I've said pretty much everything I have to say on those topics. If I'm offending you by questioning your positions, I'll stop.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Perhaps the Grey men were manipulating both Osea and the Yukes into a cold war standoff (and not just the simple instigation of the war between them). Perhaps their influence was greater than it seems and they controlled a few components of each government to allow for "defense" spending. They seem to go to great measures to exact their revenge on the world.

Theory: I predict that in AC06 the Grey men will be alluded to again, and that perhaps they even had a hand in Grunder Industries growing in power (which eventually leads to the AC3 world of Corperate rule). A nightmarish distopian world where the arms industry orchestrates wars in order to grow richer is perhaps the best kind of revenge there could be.


Here's what I understand about the Grey men: They weren't formed until after AC Zero (or maybe even near the end of the Belkan war as several Belkan loyalists saw the writing on the wall) and are comprised of former Belkan loyalists that wanted revenge against the world/Osea for the loss of the great Belkan nation during the war. They proceeded to secretly orchestrate events over the decade and instigate a war with their various spies and agressor squadrons. They apparently also control Grunder Industries (seeing as how both the Yukes and the Oseans were using Grunder built aircraft) which makes them rich. Grunder Industries eventually becomes General Resource LTD. by AC3. Am i right about this so far?

FELIPE NO

Taji, you are intelligently looking into the smallest details of this game...but in the end it's turning out stupid. Lemme back up my point:

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I suppose I owe you an apology on that last one for implying I'm forgetful, not ignorant.

Don't take what I said as personal. I said 'if'.

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I'd like to think I wouldn't do that either, but the kid was damn young and thrust into a series of events that would be traumatic even for an adult. If anything, Yellow 13 became a father figure to him through sheer default, but the attachment was certainly there: why else would he choose to follow 13 west from San Salvacion?

Where else could he have gone? He has no family in San Salvacion anymore. His only 'family' was the Yellow Squadron as you said. His uncle was taken and prolly killed, and his mom and dad died due to the plane crash. He had no choice. Now, don't ask me "Well after Yellow 13 died, what did the boy do?" Again...I don't have a clue. Maybe since he was with the Barkeep's Daughter, he went back to San Salvacion and lived with that family, and from there on...their relationship grew. Who knows. All of the AC games have had their own story within the world, with the exception to AC Zero being a prequel to AC5.

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As do I, although one of my issues with AC5 is that it's a sick joke to constantly discuss pacifism with your wingmen while you're killing people.

We don't know that. Yes, the PLANES of the enemy were destoryed, but the pilots possibly ejected. No one knows exactly. The theme of death in that game is more along the lines of MANY people rather than the few, with the exceptions to the pivotal aces of the wars, and the main characters.

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Stop me if I'm wrong, Karasu, but you seem to be saying one of two very unpleasant things here

No, i'm just saying that since i've been a fan of this game....i've encoutered MANY of the people I just pointed out, with the exception to the people here. Hell, I even know a kid where I work and he plays this game...wanna know what his political stance is? Republican, and PRO-WAR all the way. He likes the killing aspect of the game, rather than the story and message of it. I have yet to meet people like here at GFF in real life.

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Oh, there's a dozen ways we could retcon or dismiss even a project like the Osea AA system whose scope is matched only by its idiocy...but it's a glaring counterexample to the point at hand. Besides, I'd actually like to hear your argument about the OADF's nobility, if and when you care to make it.

It's a game mission that the makers wanted to try out. End of story. Stop going overboard on one stupid mission. It's a stupid idea to have a AA missle system, but it's part of the game, get over it dude.

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That was an inference of mine, taken from the fact that we were discussing the relative merits of AC04 and AC5 when you said you found the OADF noble. I still question that statement, though: do you really think lining a border with thousands of SAM launchers that automatically fire on anything except craft with Osean IFF signals is noble? For my part, the only specifically noble thing I see about the OADF is its name; if names alone conferred nobility, the moral center of the globe would be the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

And I can't help but point out that for a noble force, the OADF has some serious retention issues with active-duty personnel...

Recent Ace Combat air forces, ranked by number of known pilot defectors:
ISAF: 0 squadrons, 0 pilots
UAF: 0 squadrons, 1 pilot (Pixy)
OADF: 3 squadrons, 21 pilots (Wizard 1-8, Sorceror 1-8, Ashley and company in 8492, Hamilton)

Oh man...

Again, finding a country that would rather spend it's defense budget to build something to prospect on, and using diplomacy before war...was something I found noble. However, if you wanna keep over-ranting on the whole stupid AA missile net...feel free.

And seriously, your whole pilot defectors point fails so bad, because AC5's story was so long and rich with detail that it actually spawned a prequel, where as AC4's was linear, and didn't focus on the military of ISAF...just one pilot: Mobius One. Sorry, but your whole point is negated on that aspect.

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But if you knew "mercenary" could be used as an adjective, then why did you pretend to be dense and ask where I got mercenaries from? And again, how is it noble and not mercenary that the OADF pays you a bounty for every single enemy you eliminate, regardless of its threat level to you or the mission? Just about the only way Iraq could look worse than it does today would be if if we paid soldiers that way.

Ok wow...

You do realize this is a game? Since the BEGINNING of this series, it has had that money system. It has and will always be apart of the GAME. It was in no way..connected to the freakin' story. I don't know how in the hell you put something from a game into being part of the story. That's unbelievable. You still haven't answered my questions as to what mercenaries have to do with Osea, since they still have their own pilots and military?

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I do take a hard look at things; it's called critical thinking, and it's a gift I'm glad I have. My only objective when I mentioned my old Osean-nuke theory was to point out missed opportunities in ACZ...since then I've gone into detail about my problems with that game's plot, but I've said pretty much everything I have to say on those topics. If I'm offending you by questioning your positions, I'll stop.

Your critical thinking is on haywire then, because you're even confusing a game's currency with part of the story, which blows my mind. You are not offending me at all..but you are becoming like Chopper: Obnoxious.

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Don't take what I said as personal. I said 'if'.

All right.

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Where else could he have gone? He has no family in San Salvacion anymore. His only 'family' was the Yellow Squadron as you said. His uncle was taken and prolly killed, and his mom and dad died due to the plane crash. He had no choice. Now, don't ask me "Well after Yellow 13 died, what did the boy do?" Again...I don't have a clue. Maybe since he was with the Barkeep's Daughter, he went back to San Salvacion and lived with that family, and from there on...their relationship grew. Who knows. All of the AC games have had their own story within the world, with the exception to AC Zero being a prequel to AC5.

I didn't have any questions beyond that one, really; it seemed obvious that there was a bond between 13 and the kid that was powerful, although probably not very mutual.

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We don't know that. Yes, the PLANES of the enemy were destoryed, but the pilots possibly ejected. No one knows exactly. The theme of death in that game is more along the lines of MANY people rather than the few, with the exceptions to the pivotal aces of the wars, and the main characters.

Surely you're not suggesting that Blaze's position as a hero at the end of AC5 isn't achieved atop a massive pile of corpses. Even assuming every pilot save Hamilton ejects, even assuming you kill the bare minimum of red targets in every mission, you're talking at least a hundred kills to beat the game. Does that preclude Blaze becoming a hero in AC5, particularly in light of the lives ultimately saved by doing so? No. Does that raise serious questions about the sanity of killing repeatedly to implement pacifism? Yes.

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No, i'm just saying that since i've been a fan of this game....i've encoutered MANY of the people I just pointed out, with the exception to the people here. Hell, I even know a kid where I work and he plays this game...wanna know what his political stance is? Republican, and PRO-WAR all the way. He likes the killing aspect of the game, rather than the story and message of it. I have yet to meet people like here at GFF in real life.

I'm not one myself, fortunately, although I do confess that the game's excellent at relieving stress. I haven't ever met anyone who's played the series in person, but I really can't believe that Mitoro and the Japanese folks we briefly spoke with on GameFAQs back in the day sit around and wish they could use nukes...then again, who needs nukes when there's the Morgan?

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It's a game mission that the makers wanted to try out. End of story. Stop going overboard on one stupid mission. It's a stupid idea to have a AA missle system, but it's part of the game, get over it dude.

I won't, then. It's a little pointless since I've asked you twice now how that's noble and you're obviously not planning to answer that one.

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Oh man...

Again, finding a country that would rather spend it's defense budget to build something to prospect on, and using diplomacy before war...was something I found noble. However, if you wanna keep over-ranting on the whole stupid AA missile net...feel free.

And those are noble actions...by Osea, but I took you to mean you found the OADF noble and you never corrected me on that point. I still have issues with the OADF, but the nation itself is like a sane version of the States. Hell, Harling even looks a lot like Gore.

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And seriously, your whole pilot defectors point fails so bad, because AC5's story was so long and rich with detail that it actually spawned a prequel, where as AC4's was linear, and didn't focus on the military of ISAF...just one pilot: Mobius One. Sorry, but your whole point is negated on that aspect.

They've all been linear, Karasu; that "Face of the Coin" cheese is just a bullet point for the back of the box that doesn't affect the game's ending one bit. Anyhow, it's a fairly comical point I won't try to seriously defend given how the vast majority of the OADF tally comes from ACZ, but you have to admit it's a little difficult to explain the AC world's greatest superpower losing almost two dozen fighter pilots and their aircraft to pretty much anybody in a trenchcoat who talks a good game.

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Ok wow...

You do realize this is a game? Since the BEGINNING of this series, it has had that money system. It has and will always be apart of the GAME. It was in no way..connected to the freakin' story. I don't know how in the hell you put something from a game into being part of the story. That's unbelievable.

I think I said something similar when I was told Meryl's Codec frequency was on the back of the CD case.

Seriously, though, I know it's a game convention, but if Namco had wanted to establish the OADF as such a noble force, they could have established a new payroll system that rewards you for achieving your mission without scoring kills, without resorting to force beyond what's necessary. For that matter, they could have done something better with the only use of ROE I've seen in the series than make the first missions' non-cleared targets non-lockable and/or invincible. The mission failure you get for sinking the surveillance ship in Open War is the closest they ever got to that.

As things stand, there is no reason to do anything as an OADF pilot except obliterate every possible target on the map each and every time. If you take the strict red-target path I mentioned, you'll probably be lucky to buy two good aircraft in the course of a start-from-scratch game, while your Republican friend is telling you about how he's got every F-15 variant...and you'll still get the very same ending that pays tribute to your "ferocity" in combat.

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You still haven't answered my questions as to what mercenaries have to do with Osea, since they still have their own pilots and military?

You created that question by assuming I was using "mercenary" as a noun, which I wasn't. I still maintain that the payroll scheme for AC5 encourages a mercenary play style that contradicts the theme of its story, one which undermines the game's plausibility enough to make payroll a valid factor for discussion in relation to that story. It may not be part of the plot, but it affects how you play every mission as surely as the presence or absence of a return line.

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Your critical thinking is on haywire then, because you're even confusing a game's currency with part of the story, which blows my mind.

I've given my reasoning; it's your call whether you respond with a rational argument or more insults.

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You are not offending me at all..but you are becoming like Chopper: Obnoxious.

Then I'll stop, right here. It's not like your positions have to be defensible for you to hold them.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Mobius One

Perhaps the Grey men were manipulating both Osea and the Yukes into a cold war standoff (and not just the simple instigation of the war between them). Perhaps their influence was greater than it seems and they controlled a few components of each government to allow for "defense" spending. They seem to go to great measures to exact their revenge on the world.

That's pretty much what I thought the Grey Men were up to, although the only hard evidence for that is North Osea Grunder Industries. It's just as possible, although markedly less sexy, that the Grey Men's only objective was to nurture and support the resurrection of Belka in AC5 and that we will never hear of them again.

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Theory: I predict that in AC06 the Grey men will be alluded to again, and that perhaps they even had a hand in Grunder Industries growing in power (which eventually leads to the AC3 world of Corperate rule). A nightmarish distopian world where the arms industry orchestrates wars in order to grow richer is perhaps the best kind of revenge there could be.

Sadly, I really don't know enough about AC3 to have an opinion one way or another on that one. I rented the lobotomized NA version, beat the game once and decided it was too horrible to ever buy...all I remember about it now are whole missions set underground and superplanes that all resembled minor modifications to a paper clip. The Wikipedia article about the game doesn't even mention whether it was set on the same world map as the PS2 games.

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Here's what I understand about the Grey men: They weren't formed until after AC Zero (or maybe even near the end of the Belkan war as several Belkan loyalists saw the writing on the wall) and are comprised of former Belkan loyalists that wanted revenge against the world/Osea for the loss of the great Belkan nation during the war. They proceeded to secretly orchestrate events over the decade and instigate a war with their various spies and agressor squadrons. They apparently also control Grunder Industries (seeing as how both the Yukes and the Oseans were using Grunder built aircraft) which makes them rich. Grunder Industries eventually becomes General Resource LTD. by AC3. Am i right about this so far?

Well...see above, but pretty much all we can do about the Grey Men at present is speculate. They're one of those annoying loose ends that scream "trilogy" louder and louder the more you think about it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Finally~~

http://www.gamemp3s.net/2006/06/03/the-belkan-war/

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Horrible naming scheme, bah.

Megalith, I do hope you have the ACZ OST, and you are ripping it now.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Some people are ignorant and can't tell the difference, lith. ;_____; But #gamemp3s does some of the best quality MP3s possible. So you can't diss them for that.

Speaking of quality though, would you rip and distribute a lossless version?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I bet Tails would be willing to distribute a lossless rip of the soundtrack, considering we all know he had that ordered and it's either at his place or soon to be there.

I'll wait on downloading the #gamemp3s rip, because a lossless rip is sure to be on it's way.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'll have my soundtrack the moment the post office opens in the morning (they tried to deliver Saturday but I was at work, fucking work). Someone point me in the direction of a FLAC codec or something so I can rip in it lossless and it's all yours.

Double Post:
OK guys, torrent is up on the GF Tracker. Download Link?

For those of you not registered on the GFTracker, there's an APE RIP up on Tokyo Toshokan.

That is all.

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Originally Posted by RayPrower

For those of you not registered on the GFTracker, there's an APE RIP up on Tokyo Toshokan.

I totally do not recommend you people download that rip at all. It's the worst shit ever.

First of all, it's a single APE file per disc with a CUE sheet for each disc, which is the first indicator that it fucking sucks.

Second, it does not accomodate for the varying composers. Instead, it just shows up as "Unknown Artist," (with the composers labeled for what tracks they did in the nfo file,) which is another clear indicator that they fail.

Deal with the sagery that is having to register for the gftracker and wait for Eleo or Cile to authorize you. Besides, Tails' torrent is going about as fast for me as the other one was.

FELIPE NO

Besides, Tails's rip is in FLAC, which is an infinitely superior format to APE. To use Monkey's Audio in this day and age is nothing short of stupidity.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

And I also tagged mine correctly.

I give only the best for Ace Combat.

As for the Soundtrack itself, I like how they diteched the Arcade tracks (which are already on the AC5 OST for crying out loud) in favor of adding a few more tracks from the actual game. The Prologue is definetly one of my favorite Post-Rocks Gamerip tracks.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Anybody else notice the tempo on all of Nakanishi's tracks are faster on the OST than the game rip? I actually preferred the slower tempo for a good number of those. :-/

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Aside from Gladisant and Merlon, that's the speed I remember them all being. Especially Contact. I like it this way.

How ya doing, buddy?

Welcome to 25 posts ago.

The slower version of Excalibur sounds kind of cool, though.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Well as long as that's the way it is in the game, I have nothing to complain about. I haven't played it, so all I have to go by is Rock's rip. Don't know why only Nakanishi's tracks got the speed hit though. I wonder if it's different between the JP and NA versions... Has anyone checked this specifically?

And also, Prologue owns.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Almost all of the tracks on the rip are slower.

Briefing 1 is pretty much retarded sounding after listening to the original track.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Sorry if this is a bit late, but I had a theory about AC5 that someone had mentioned. Basically they had asked why the Gray Men had Osea and Yuktobania fight, when it seems all the Yukes did was some aid in the form of technology and supplies. Well if you wanted to get back at Osea, a superpower, by having them fight a war that would wipe them out then you'd want them to fight a country of equal power. If they just had them fight, say Ustio, it most likely wouldn't have lasted long.

*shrugs* Just an idea.

FELIPE NO