Batman: Burton vs. Nolan

Originally Posted by sprouticus

I can. He needs to fight crime by instilling fear on those who pray on the fearful. What better way than a scary, badass tank! The original batmobile is too slick and somewhat campy. The tumbler is cool AND practical.

It certainly does instill fear in his opponents.

But to me, Batman isn't about brute force. The tumber is just that: Brute force. Batman methods of instilling fear into badguys is by appearing out of the shadows. There's an element of surprise, subtlety and silent finesse.

While I do like the tank because it could do all sorts of things ... it just isn't subtle.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Christian Bale sucked. All Bale ever brings to a film is a sense of evil and arrogance.

Keaton was a better Bruce Wayne, of course. It was harder to fathom the possibility that he was Batman, both in and out of the film's context. Back when Batman came out, you'd see Keaton as a comic, since he just came out of Beetlejuice. And he always acted like an oddball in the film during public scenes, like the party at Wayne Manor in the beginning. You got the sense that he didn't belong, but you couldn't really picture the guy as Batman since he wasn't particularly dark and moody and attended to business in the real world.

Keaton is such an incredible actor. The scene in Batman Returns where the Bat Signal turns on and his face just lights up, says it all.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Keaton was a decent Bruce Wayne in the first Batman film, but in Returns he was just a by-the-numbers character, showing none of the characteristics you'd expect from Wayne.

Bale nailed him.

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Originally Posted by Megalith

Keaton is such an incredible actor. The scene in Batman Returns where the Bat Signal turns on and his face just lights up, says it all.

I've always liked that scene. It was almost like his whole purpose in life was to wait for that signal. That's all he lived for. Sitting in a darkened room, all by himself, waiting for the signal to go up.

Originally Posted by Motsy

Keaton was a decent Bruce Wayne in the first Batman film, but in Returns he was just a by-the-numbers character, showing none of the characteristics you'd expect from Wayne.

Bale nailed him.

Keaton showing none of the characterics you'd expect from Wayne in Batman Returns?

What do you expect from Bruce Wayne? Brunce Wayne IS just a by-the-numbers character.

Batman is the true self. And Keaton's Batman is dope.

I was speaking idiomatically.

There's nothing to suggest that Wayne's a radically different person from Batman in Returns. Of course that's just one of many failings Returns has as a Batman movie.

And Keaton just looked good in the suit; he didn't bring Batman to life like Bale did.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Too bad Keaton's "I'm Batman." from the beginning of the first film destroys anything Bale did in Batman Begins.

FELIPE NO

Bale counters with "I'm Batman."!

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I can't even say how much more I liked Batman Begins than any other Batman. I wouldn't trade Batman Begins not even for a hundred Keaton's Batman's.

Bayle is a much darker Batman, more stylish.
In my opinion there's no better Bruce Wayne and Batman than Christian Bayle, Michael Keaton wasn't bad but not half as good.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Batman Begins is not a good movie. I've seen it a couple of times, and I really cannot understand why there is so much praise heaped at it. The Burton Batman films easily surpass Nolan's effort.

Nolan is better suited for thrillers and gimmick movies, not action films.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Batman Begins is the obvious choice mainly because it follows his origin as depicted in the comics for the most part, some slight alterations but just about as good as it'll ever get in a Batman film. Burton's vision was stylized to a point where it got me sick, I couldn't ever figure out the use of those huge statues that appeared in Returns and so on. Also about that image of Keaton in Returns, you would think the Gotham police would've figured out where the Bat signal was being relayed to.
The only upside to Burton's Batman films is probably just the score, it's difficult to replace the Batman theme with the one presented by Zimmer & Newton Howard being that I grew up on Danny Elfman's Batman theme and it doesn't help that it's in the animated series as well. The new theme will take some time getting used to. :singalong:

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

I agree. For me, the definitive Batman -- in terms of how he carries himself and how he speaks -- is the Animated Series' take. And Kevin Conroy just made the character true. He got it just right. When I think about how Batman and Bruce Wayne would talk, Kevin Conroy is the voice I hear.

I wholeheartedly agree with this (and what Tappy said). IMO, the animated version of Batman (BTAS, TNBA, Batman Beyond, Justice League, etc) far surpasses anything in the live-action movies. Kevin Conroy (and Bruce Timm & co.) really deserve so much more credit. As far as Batman goes, that version is it for me.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by T1249NTSCJ

I grew up on Danny Elfman's Batman theme and it doesn't help that it's in the animated series as well. The new theme will take some time getting used to. :singalong:

For those who might not know:
The Animated Series only used Danny Elfman's theme for the opening and end end credits.
(and it was briefly used in the episode's "The Last Laugh" and "Nothing To Fear"...if I can remember correctly)
In the series itself Batman had another rousing heroic theme, written by Shirley Walker.
(which was later also used for the opening and end credits, when it became the Batman & Robin Adventures.....or something like that, plus The Mask Of Phantasm movie opens with this theme).

How ever good Elfman's Batman theme may be, I think this theme was even better!

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by T1249NTSCJ

I couldn't ever figure out the use of those huge statues that appeared in Returns and so on.

I believe those massive statues were meant to give a sense of oppression, and of power.

Originally Posted by T1249NTSCJ

Also about that image of Keaton in Returns, you would think the Gotham police would've figured out where the Bat signal was being relayed to.

Haha, I've always wondered about that too.


-----


Tappy brought up Shirley Walker, whose work is just awesome, and who deserves a lot of recognition. She scored the Animated Series incredibly well, and she punctuated every scene perfectly.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I choose Nolan's Batman.

Batman Begins proved to be my favorite Batman movie yet. Christian Bale's performance is exactly how I imagined Bruce Wayne. Yes, Bale still needs work on his Batman 'interrogation' voice, but I believe he won't disappoint in the near future.

Nolan's Batman had more heart and I felt it respected the roots of the character more. Burton's Batman was excellent and I enjoy 'Batman' and 'Batman Returns', I just feel Nolan did a better job.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by T1249NTSCJ

Also about that image of Keaton in Returns, you would think the Gotham police would've figured out where the Bat signal was being relayed to.

The scene pretty clearly shows extra mirrors on Wayne Manor reflecting the signal to Bruce's room; the actual signal isn't directly aimed at Wayne Manor.

How ya doing, buddy?

Nolan's Batman Begins. Why Bale? They (fanboys) wanted a Playboy Bruce Wayne so the got Patrick Bateman (American Psycho) and they (fanboys) Batman in action so they Cleric John Preston (Equilibrium). So that is why the fanboys wants Bale

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sing

The scene pretty clearly shows extra mirrors on Wayne Manor reflecting the signal to Bruce's room; the actual signal isn't directly aimed at Wayne Manor.

But what if he has guests over. And the signal from the city goes up.

Uh oh.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I prefer Nolan's Batman over any other film version, with the exception of Mask of the Phantasm (as I'm such a whore for the 90's Animated series...). I did quite like Burton's 'Batman Returns' though, much more than the first one he did in fact.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

The new Batman movie seems too dark or something. I just doesn't go well with the rest of the Batman movies that have come out so far. Besides, Batman in Burton's movies seemed cooler than Nolan's Batman.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

Tappy brought up Shirley Walker, whose work is just awesome, and who deserves a lot of recognition. She scored the Animated Series incredibly well, and she punctuated every scene perfectly.

To this day whenever I think of the Joker, his animated theme almost always follows suit.



Whenever I think of Burton's movies I remember two things: Batman strapping a bomb to a dude and pushing him down a manhole, and penguins with rockets strapped to their backs. The only bad thing I can remember about Nolan's is that stupid heat weapon.

Although Nicholson's performance as Joker will probably trump whoever Nolan gets...

I was speaking idiomatically.

Personally, I never enjoyed Burton's Bat-flicks. The first film is decent, but even when it came out I remember asking my father why Batman was mowing people down with machine guns. The second film remains unwatchable to me. At least I can laugh at Batman and Robin. I can't say the same for Returns.

Nolan's film on the other hand hit every nail squarely on the head for me. Not just in terms of the characterization, but as a cinematic experience. It's a great movie as far as I'm concerned, and I pray Superman Returns is on its level.

I have to agree though with those citing the animated series. It's so ingrained in me, Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamil are the voices I hear when I read dialogue between Batman and Joker. Mask of the Phantasm is the definitive Batman picture for me. Shirley Walker's theme from that movie also tops any other theme I've heard for the Caped Crusader.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Preacher33

Whenever I think of Burton's movies I remember two things: Batman strapping a bomb to a dude and pushing him down a manhole, and penguins with rockets strapped to their backs.

Oooh, Burton took some flak for that one -- having Batman strapping a bomb to the tattooed strongman, and shoving into a hole. He had to explain that one on the special edition DVD of Batman Returns.

Originally Posted by Van

I have to agree though with those citing the animated series. It's so ingrained in me, Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamil are the voices I hear when I read dialogue between Batman and Joker. Mask of the Phantasm is the definitive Batman picture for me. Shirley Walker's theme from that movie also tops any other theme I've heard for the Caped Crusader.

Mask of the Phantasm -- that movie is just awesome. Shirley Walker's score for it is also brilliant.

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Originally Posted by Timberwolf

Tappy brought up Shirley Walker, whose work is just awesome, and who deserves a lot of recognition. She scored the Animated Series incredibly well, and she punctuated every scene perfectly.

Off topic, on topic, I guess. But does anyone know if there was ever a soundtrack released with Shirley Walker's work from the regular series (i.e. not the Phantasm score)? I would personally kill for something like that which collected the Penguin, Poison Ivy, and countless other classic themes from the show.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

[nolife fanboy]The tank was actually a nod to Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns.[/nolife fanboy]

Being an avid fan of the Burton movies, TAS and comic book storylines by Miller and Loeb, Nolan's take felt a little weak on the villains side and maybe the fight scenes as well. Apart from the showdown we really never get to see how mean the Bale Batman gets when roughing up thugs and I think this has some relevance for the overall characterization (and well choreographed and filmed fights are more fun anyway). The casting was very effective nonetheless so was the gradual development of all the little aspects of the mythos.

Still, Burton did those most amazing things with his villains. The madness of the Joker, the chemistry between Catwoman and Batman, along with the overall style and poetry - those things made the old movies exeptional for me. And it's not quite Burton's likeable-misfits-routine as in Beetlejuice, Edward Scissorhands or Corpse Bride. The Penguin was disgusting and creepy, despite all the tragedy involved.

Anyway, at the moment I'm having pretty much a hard time comparing or judging Batman Begins. It's going to be part of a series, so give me the sequels and I'll take another look at the finished product. As an exposition to a more down to earth and still serious movie version of Batman it did very good. It didn't try to emulate Burton, nor should it.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Arbok

Off topic, on topic, I guess. But does anyone know if there was ever a soundtrack released with Shirley Walker's work from the regular series (i.e. not the Phantasm score)? I would personally kill for something like that which collected the Penguin, Poison Ivy, and countless other classic themes from the show.

Unfortunately, there wasn't.

But Tappy ripped some himself from the show. You can find them on his FTP. Look for the following:

Tappy's Unreleased TV Music Collection Volume 1

and

Tappy's Unreleased TV Music Collection Volume 2

There's nowhere I can't reach.