Batman: Burton vs. Nolan

I liked both Nolan's film and Burton's films. They each brought something to the table. I still like Burton's films more, though.

I appreciate Burton's vision because of his style and his effective use of pathos. I've always liked how virtually all of his movies have protagonists who are social outcasts -- dark, brooding, tortured, lonely, and extremely vulnerable. Just look at Edward in Edward Scissorhands, or Victor in The Corpse Bride. His Batman is no different.

In his two Batman films, he gave a lot of screen time to the villains. For instance, in Batman Returns, The Penguin's story took precedence over Batman's. And Burton himself acknowledged this in the special edition DVD, where he mentioned how Batman was already established and he wanted to explore The Penguin and The Catwoman.

Even his villains were vulnerable characters and outcasts. Just look at The Penguin, whose predicament wasn't entirely his fault. Had his rich parents raised him with love -- like Bruce Wayne's had -- instead of dumping him into the river, perhaps he would have turned out differently. The only difference between the infant Oswald and infant Bruce was that the former was born physically abnormal. You could argue that even if his parents had raised him properly, Oswald would still have had to endure ridicule and disdain throughout his life.

Similar pathos with Selina Kyle. You feel for Burton's villains.

Burton also uses a lot of humor, a lot of it subtle and dark. I've always loved the line from Batman Returns, where Batman and Alfred foil The Penguin's speech by turning the crowd against him, and the first thing out of The Penguin's mouth as he made haste for his exit was: "Why is there always someone who bring eggs and tomatoes to a speech."

Nolan's Batman film is just straigh-up Batman. Like orion_mk3 said, Nolan's focus (at least in Batman Begins) was clearly on presenting Batman and telling his backstory. He explored the character very well, and I enjoyed the movie thoroughly.

Nolan's Batman Begins stands on its own as a great film. It isn't as twisted, as dark, or as lonely as Burton's, but it's terrific in its own right. But maybe it's because I'm somewhat partial to Burton's work -- since I grew up watching his two Batman films countless of times. So even though I loved Batman Begins, I still would never place it above Burton's work.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by sprouticus

as blasphemous as this may be to say, but I didn't even think Keaton was a good Bruce Wayne. He was an OK Batman, but as Bruce, Christian Bale destroys him.

I would agree with that, actually.

Christian Bale was a better Brunce Wayne than Michael Keaton was.
But Michael Keaton was a better Batman than Christian Bale was.



But -- and I'm sure this will spark some discussion:

I've always believed that Batman is the true self, while Bruce Wayne is the secret identity.

Contrast that with the Superman mythos, where Clark Kent is the true self, and Superman is the secret identity.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by sprouticus

I disagree with that, and here's why. The main reason I loved Bale's Batman over Keaton's is because he truly disguises himself. Allow me to explain.

Superheroes are supposed to mask their identity right? Keaton's Batman and Tobey Maguire's Spider Man both do one thing that throws everything off for me - They mask their appearance, but they don't mask their voice. Is your voice not a part of your identity? You can't tell me that if you knew Peter Parker and then met Spider Man, you wouldn't say "gee, he sounds alot like that Peter Parker guy."

Alot of people thought that Bale's Bat-voice was cheesy, but I thought it was downright brilliant. Even when he does the whole "SWEAR TO ME!" thing. It's corny, yeah, but that all comes full circle back to the whole fear thing. Batman's whole motif is predicated on instilling fear on those who pray on the fearful. If Batman spoke like Bruce Wayne, he wouldn't be as scary. Bale understood both Batman and Bruce Wayne. He truly masks EVERY part of his Bruce Wayne identity, right down to his voice.

That's why Bale's better

I see what you mean, and I can't say I disagree. Bale distinguished the dichotomy between Batman and Bruce Wayne a lot better than Keaton. And yes, Bale's Bruce Wayne was a better disguise than Keaton's. Keaton's Bruce Wayne was very, very moody and dark ... not really that much different from his Batman.

[But Keaton had his moments too. I recall in particular moment in Batman Returns, when Batman was cruising in the Batmobile late at night, keeping an eye on The Penguin. He said to Alfred, in an extremely deep and low voice, "I think he knows who his parents are. There's something else." His Bruce Wayne never spoke like that.]

So yes, on the whole, Bale distinguished the dual identities better than Keaton did. But without that dichotomy, if I looked simply at Batman on its own, I liked Keaton's take more.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Tappy

Kevin Conroy might not have portrayed Batman in the live-action movies, but if you're talking about the distinction between the two voices of Batman (Bruce and Bats), then he is by far the best of any of the Batman actors!

I agree. For me, the definitive Batman -- in terms of how he carries himself and how he speaks -- is the Animated Series' take. And Kevin Conroy just made the character true. He got it just right. When I think about how Batman and Bruce Wayne would talk, Kevin Conroy is the voice I hear.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I didn't think anyone was going to go there.

Nolan's Batmobile ... it was cool. But it wasn't subtle.

I can't picture The Dark Knight driving around in that thing, all sleek, brooding, and mysterious.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by sprouticus

I can. He needs to fight crime by instilling fear on those who pray on the fearful. What better way than a scary, badass tank! The original batmobile is too slick and somewhat campy. The tumbler is cool AND practical.

It certainly does instill fear in his opponents.

But to me, Batman isn't about brute force. The tumber is just that: Brute force. Batman methods of instilling fear into badguys is by appearing out of the shadows. There's an element of surprise, subtlety and silent finesse.

While I do like the tank because it could do all sorts of things ... it just isn't subtle.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Megalith

Keaton is such an incredible actor. The scene in Batman Returns where the Bat Signal turns on and his face just lights up, says it all.

I've always liked that scene. It was almost like his whole purpose in life was to wait for that signal. That's all he lived for. Sitting in a darkened room, all by himself, waiting for the signal to go up.

Originally Posted by Motsy

Keaton was a decent Bruce Wayne in the first Batman film, but in Returns he was just a by-the-numbers character, showing none of the characteristics you'd expect from Wayne.

Bale nailed him.

Keaton showing none of the characterics you'd expect from Wayne in Batman Returns?

What do you expect from Bruce Wayne? Brunce Wayne IS just a by-the-numbers character.

Batman is the true self. And Keaton's Batman is dope.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by T1249NTSCJ

I couldn't ever figure out the use of those huge statues that appeared in Returns and so on.

I believe those massive statues were meant to give a sense of oppression, and of power.

Originally Posted by T1249NTSCJ

Also about that image of Keaton in Returns, you would think the Gotham police would've figured out where the Bat signal was being relayed to.

Haha, I've always wondered about that too.


-----


Tappy brought up Shirley Walker, whose work is just awesome, and who deserves a lot of recognition. She scored the Animated Series incredibly well, and she punctuated every scene perfectly.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sing

The scene pretty clearly shows extra mirrors on Wayne Manor reflecting the signal to Bruce's room; the actual signal isn't directly aimed at Wayne Manor.

But what if he has guests over. And the signal from the city goes up.

Uh oh.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Preacher33

Whenever I think of Burton's movies I remember two things: Batman strapping a bomb to a dude and pushing him down a manhole, and penguins with rockets strapped to their backs.

Oooh, Burton took some flak for that one -- having Batman strapping a bomb to the tattooed strongman, and shoving into a hole. He had to explain that one on the special edition DVD of Batman Returns.

Originally Posted by Van

I have to agree though with those citing the animated series. It's so ingrained in me, Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamil are the voices I hear when I read dialogue between Batman and Joker. Mask of the Phantasm is the definitive Batman picture for me. Shirley Walker's theme from that movie also tops any other theme I've heard for the Caped Crusader.

Mask of the Phantasm -- that movie is just awesome. Shirley Walker's score for it is also brilliant.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Arbok

Off topic, on topic, I guess. But does anyone know if there was ever a soundtrack released with Shirley Walker's work from the regular series (i.e. not the Phantasm score)? I would personally kill for something like that which collected the Penguin, Poison Ivy, and countless other classic themes from the show.

Unfortunately, there wasn't.

But Tappy ripped some himself from the show. You can find them on his FTP. Look for the following:

Tappy's Unreleased TV Music Collection Volume 1

and

Tappy's Unreleased TV Music Collection Volume 2

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.