[General Discussion] What the heck has happened with the Mana/Seiken Densetsu franchise? Where's the magic

Well, as stated in the title, what the heck has happened to this series of great games that were released in the past? Ok, I don't know if I'm the only one who has this opinion, but after Seiken Densetsu 3 (which is one of my all time favorites in games) all the Secret of Mana games have turned into pure crap in comparison to the two released on the SNES. I've played Legend of Mana, Sword of Mana, and taken some quick plays at Children of Mana and Heroes of Mana, but I've gotten disappointed at every one of them. I haven't played Dawn of Mana, but I have heard that it's not very good and I really don't feel like trying it neither. The magic that was all there in the early games have just disappeared and they have turned the great fighting systems that were in the SNES games into shit. Why do they keep massacring the name of this once great game series? I'd rather have them not release any more of these games than getting more of these horrible games.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I only really liked SoM out of the whole series.

The more games that come out the more it seems like the game was a complete fluke (and how sad it is Secret of Evermore came the closest to recreating the SoM experience).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I actually only liked Secret of Mana and Legend of Mana. SD3 never did it for me and the rest of the series has been considerable suckage.

Also, maybe I'm a minority but Legend of Mana was the pinnacle of the series for me. Played the shit out of that game making some great weapons and I loved the way the game had so many scattered subplots everywhere. Made it easy to pick up and put down while still enjoying the storyline.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Same thing that's happened with the FF series...Too many games, too much whorage, too little substance. Both Children of Mana and SD4 look absolutely terrible and I'm only slightly optimistic about Heroes of Mana because it sounds like Growlanser's battle system. Was never a fan of Legend of Mana...The battles just put me to sleep and felt like a beat-em up that wasn't fully complete, but I liked the scenario structure for awhile.

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Out of all the Seiken games, I've only liked the first three (SoM being the best). After that, it was pretty much all downhill...

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by nanaman

Why do they keep massacring the name of this once great game series? I'd rather have them not release any more of these games than getting more of these horrible games.

They don't care. People will buy them and they want money.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I think the "series" really lacks any consistency. I have a soft spot for Secret of Mana and even Seiken Densetsu 3... but, that's about it. If Legend of Mana had a bit more structure... not sure how I want to put this, if it felt a little less fragmented (which each of the subplot scenarios are), I'd probably loved it. It was a guilty pleasure, especially with co-op mode.

I wouldn't get too disheartened, especially given how sometimes great things are truly stand alone experiences.

FELIPE NO

Secret of Mana was pretty good, but I didn't like it anywhere near as much as SD3. If they had games more along the lines of the compromise of those two, then I'd be overjoyed - Dungeon crawl / half-assed RTS games? Not so much.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Secret of Mana was the tops for me, Seiken Densetsu 3 was really cool too, and even Final Fantasy Adventure was one of the best handheld RPGs around when it came out. I really think Square's big problem with the whole World of Mana promotion was making too many games at once; all the top brass were just spread too thin (even if Masato Kato came back from Monolith to work on it). Granted, Children of Mana got pretty good reviews in Japan, where gamers are less hateful of dungeon crawls overall (36/40 in Famitsu, sold 100k units in, like, a week), but I don't really see it as a classic-in-the-making or anything. The new Mana games just don't feel like the older titles, either. Secret of Mana and SD3 were great because they were good single player games that happened to have a working multi-player component. CoM is a decent multi-player title with no story to cater to single-players, and Dawn of Mana is a very basic single-player game that has no multi-player at all. It feels like you're only getting half the experience with either title.

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You're talking about the people who created Frost Mission 5, and then decide not to release it outside Japan. WHY? you fucking bastards. They don't make sense anymore.

As much as they'll try, Secret of Mana will never be equalled again, along with other SNES games from that era, like Chrono Trigger.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Don't be forgetting Heroes... which is utter BS. Damn it SE, just remake the originals already. You're already doing it for FF and DQ.

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Originally Posted by Torte

Damn it SE, just remake the originals already. You're already doing it for FF and DQ.

If they screw the remakes of SoM and SD3 up as much as they did for the original Seiken Densetsu (re: Sword of Mana), then we're not really going to be better off for it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Well, when you think about it, Secret of Mana was at the top of its game with co-titles like Chrono Trigger and EarthBound for the SNES. It had a great plot and great music. Not only could play co-op w/ two people, but it was just plain fun. At the time, the graphics were outstanding, and it truly was a great RPG for the SNES era.

Unfortunately, it seems that today many developers (with the exception of a few) aren't interested in getting the player entranced in a solid storyline. Instead, they churn out these games quickly just because they're franchise sequels. They fail to do the one thing that seemed to keep games entertaining in the past....develop some originality, but don't mess with the thing that made it great in the first place.

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

Same thing that's happened with the FF series...Too many games, too much whorage, too little substance.

I completely agree with that statement. Especially the question of what happened to the SUBSTANCE? That's probably the biggest problem of most new titles out there today. The bottom line in most cases... that quick development leads to a disappointing game.

I was speaking idiomatically.

The downfall of the Mana series isn't the World of Mana bs or any of that. It's that Square feels it has to innovate with every title, so they tack on useless system after useless system and makes the game too complicated for its own good. All you need is to level up your weapon skill (to 9, not 99), and your magic skill (same), and ocassionally get better weapons and armor than you currently have. No smithing shit with extra trinkets to give bonus points for random shit; no gathering extra elemental sprites that do you not a bit of good unless you're the right job; and really, no jobs. Give that shit up.

Just fighting and levelling, that's all you need, Square. You got the music and art down perfectly, so just go back to old school for the game mechanics.

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Originally Posted by boltzman84

Unfortunately, it seems that today many developers (with the exception of a few) aren't interested in getting the player entranced in a solid storyline.

Secret of Mana was never known for its plot. Sorry, it's the truth. It was so fun that I didn't care that the plot was specious at best and hackneyed at worst, though.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Secret of Mana had a story? Doesn't matter. The environments, soundtrack and explorative spirit of the game more than made up for an uninspired story. In fact, I believe Seiken Densetsu 2 to be nothing short of magic.

Recent efforts in the Seiken Densetsu franchise should be more prone to trying to figure out what made the original so great.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by GRUN-3

Secret of Mana was never known for its plot. Sorry, it's the truth. It was so fun that I didn't care that the plot was specious at best and hackneyed at worst, though.

Yeah, I suppose that's probably true. I'm going from what I remember about the game as a kid...I probably hyped it up to be better in my mind, but I do know for a fact that it was one of my favorite memorable RPG's, and the fun factor was very high.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Yeah, that's fair enough. I rented the game constantly, and would play other people's save games*, so the plot was all over the place for me. Didn't matter, though, since the game was spot on for everything else.

* It wasn't until later that I realized that may have been a rude gesture.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

You guys can rag on the story all you want, but I still think the ending of SoM was really sad.

Damnit, now I want to play the game again. ;_;

There's nowhere I can't reach.

C'mon guys, we all know it was pretty much downhill after Final Fantasy Adventure.

Why lie.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I don't know why everyone refuses to tell me what was wrong with Heroes of Mana.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Secret of Mana was never known for its plot. Sorry, it's the truth. It was so fun that I didn't care that the plot was specious at best and hackneyed at worst, though.

I'll concede that there really wasn't much of a plot, but the game does have a lot of heart. What other RPG allows you to visit Santa himself, AND go on a quest for him? The game's just so fanciful and out-there it's impossible not to like! The newer Manas, pretty much from Legend of Mana onward, have all gotten so... odd. Every other NPC in LoM speaks in riddles or cryptic phrases, the music has become more serious and low-key, the art style has become more detailed and fantasy-like and less jovial and bright. It's not all bad, but it's drifting away from what made the series really something special instead of just another RPG. Hiroki Kikuta needs to come back, that's for sure.

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I don't know why everyone refuses to tell me what was wrong with Heroes of Mana.

If you want my opinion, nothing is *really* wrong with it, but the AI (both your team's and the enemies) are kinda wonky. Everything just sorta wanders around like it's trying to be random and not sticking to any sort of strategy. I think the big issue people had with it was it was an RTS with little strategy; you just sort of run in and attack anything that moves. Koichi Ishii said it was never supposed to be more than a "casual" game anyway, so some people judge it for more than it was trying to be: an entry-level RTS. It *does* have cameos from SD3, though, and that alone is worth something.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I think the most telling sign this series is on the decline is there hasn't been one clear-cut "OMFG, this thread is bullshit" post to defend the series so far. Just "SD1-3 were awesome, some love for LoM which has always been love-hate, then...Uh yeah".

I have to say though...it IS nice SE is spreading the whoring out to include the Mana series, so it's not just FF and KH. So hopefully, all these shitty games will pay off and eventually lead to a domestic DS SD3 release...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Seriously it was never that good to begin with. I don't know why people expect something from each sequel. It's like you like having your hopes and dreams disintergrate on a bi-annual basis.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Xellos

You're talking about the people who created Frost Mission 5, and then decide not to release it outside Japan. WHY? you fucking bastards. They don't make sense anymore.

I can tell you exactly why: Front Mission 4 sold exactly six copies. Game stores couldn't give the game away. It's not unreasonable for Squeenix to not want to flush away money on a game that they cannot sell.

Actually, this is related to why the SD series has sucked so badly lately: it doesn't have to be any good. The teeming masses don't care if a game is any good, as long as it's pretty and has name recognition, and the Seiken games have both in spades. That one Matrix game crashed on the Xbox, and it still sold like hotcakes.

It's sad, but that's business. The only reason anybody makes good games at all, I'd wager, is professional work ethics. Because if all you care about is money, then all you need is a ton of graphic artists and someone who knows how to pump the teen angst market.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Seriously it was never that good to begin with. I don't know why people expect something from each sequel. It's like you like having your hopes and dreams disintergrate on a bi-annual basis.

I read somewhere that Mana fans are the new Sonic fans, and it's very true. Every new game that comes out has thousands of hangers-on hoping against all odds that *this* will be the game to bring the series back. Regardless of how good of a game SoM was back in '92, from a technical or story-telling perspective, it has aged well in the minds of fans. Trying to recapitulate the memories of first playing the game are what keep people coming back to the series, no matter how lackluster the new games may be.

Jam it back in, in the dark.