[PS3] PlayStation 3 Discussion Thread

It actually is required, because to make it fit on a DVD would mean removing current things in the game. Which could lead to gameplay changes. Which could totally change the game's experiance. Also if a launch game is just using 20GB, imagine what better looking and more interactive & feature filled games like MGS4 will be.

But hey if you can stick with a Wii for 2 - 3 years and then get a PS3 later on when it's cheaper then go for it. I myself can't stand sports games for if I wanted to play sports I'd just go play them with my friends. And platformers are the least changed genre of ALL game genres, and I find then pointless, repetative, and boring. I'm not saying that they ARE these things. This is just how they are to ME.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Slayer X

It actually is required, because to make it fit on a DVD would mean removing current things in the game. Which could lead to gameplay changes. Which could totally change the game's experiance. Also if a launch game is just using 20GB, imagine what better looking and more interactive & feature filled games like MGS4 will be.

You wouldnt have to remove anything, you could tone down the graphics. A less pretty game should not make the game less fun.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by avanent

I care about having fun first and foremost.

If I can just as much fun at 250, why pay 500-600 usd for it?

Who said this was anything but fun? I'm just pointing out, that approaching this just looking at what you get with each machine, one is the better value.

Your opinion is valid, regardless of the conclusion of that approach.

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Dual Double Layered Capactiy DVDs can hold upto 17gig according to wiki.

Much of that is redundant space, but why are we talking about DVD capacity?

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Yes, that would still require two discs though, as it is currently. Also, coding is small in comparison to the graphic aspects. The game is so big because of the graphics. Blu-ray is not required for making Resistance a great game (if it is turns out to be a great game).

Resistance, to be honest, is only 22GB because of the uncompressed 7.1 channel audio they have stored there. Its not high resolution textures because that would accomplish nothing, since the bandwidth would remain the same. The game, proper, is probably just a few gigs.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Okay avanent, that's enough. Come back to Mario's Warp Room for that stuff. Your argument against the PS3 has no chance in hell working here.

As for the PS3, I find it funny that public attention has turned the opposite direction from the beginning. It seems as if public opinion just keeps getting thrown back and forth. It seems that everytime a huge announcement is made for one system, everybody rushes to the other one. Before PS3 and Wii were announced officially, the opinion originally sided with the PS3 because of it's brand name. The Revolution gets announced and everybody flocks to the Revolution, PS3's announcement of Blu-Ray and other stuff is announced, everybody runs back. Public opinion will always change depending on announcements. I personally had no interest in the PS3 whatsoever. But now, it's looking more and more enticing by the minute. Ironically, the opposite seems to be true for Nintendo, who, as long as they don't make any official announcements, they get tremendous support. With each successive announcement, PS3 is going up and Wii's dropping.

The $500 pricetag now becomes justifiable with all these extra features.....

I was speaking idiomatically.

Wanting better graphics is also a valid want. Its just not one I can see myself spending much money on... I focus more on value generally, and it can be hard for me to really rationalize spending so much for graphical improvements. Of course, then again, I don't play that many games, I'm just looking to have some fun between other things. If I was more serious about it, I could have a different outlook.

Originally Posted by Metal Sphere

Resistance, to be honest, is only 22GB because of the uncompressed 7.1 channel audio they have stored there. Its not high resolution textures because that would accomplish nothing, since the bandwidth would remain the same. The game, proper, is probably just a few gigs.

Wow, I didnt realize sound was that big... I know graphics are huge compared to coding, btu I had no idea where sound fit into that.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

May I ask a question?

What do you get with the Wii that couldn't have just been a new accessori and better online support for the NGC? So what if you lose the Wii channels, thoes arn't worth $300 either.

P.S.
For the record I play about 5 - 6 hours a day, so perhaps that's why I have, play and have come to liking more games on the PS1/2 then any other system. Also though, I want to note that I have every system from the NES to the 360 as well as some earlier machienes at my grandparents, I'm not bragging I'm just trying to convey that there are things that I like on EVERY console, I'm not just viewing this from a single viewpoint.

FELIPE NO

Jesus Christ man, just stop already, This is definitely not the place to talk about Wii vs PS3. We all know the PS3 looks amazing and the Wii boils down to a Juiced up Gamecube with innovative controls and Wifi capabilities and what not. They're not even in direct competition, so exactly why are we arguing here?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Slayer X

May I ask a question?

What do you get with the Wii that couldn't have just been a new accessori and better online support for the NGC? So what if you lose the Wii channels, thoes arn't worth $300 either.

P.S.
For the record I play about 5 - 6 hours a day, so perhaps that's why I have, play and have come to liking more games on the PS1/2 then any other system. Also though, I want to note that I have every system from the NES to the 360 as well as some earlier machienes at my grandparents, I'm not bragging I'm just trying to convey that there are things that I like on EVERY console, I'm not just viewing this from a single viewpoint.

A new way to play games and hopefully a system with a large ammount of third party support that is actually willing to experiment a little and focus more on gameplay. I don't care at all about the Wii channels. I'll probably look at them the moment I take it out of the box, and never again.

I play consoles maybe only around 5-6 hours total a week. I think thats the fundamental difference in our perspectives. It makes it hard fo rme to consider that much money with my more limited usage.

Originally Posted by Omnislash124

Okay avanent, that's enough. Come back to Mario's Warp Room for that stuff. Your argument against the PS3 has no chance in hell working here.

As for the PS3, I find it funny that public attention has turned the opposite direction from the beginning. It seems as if public opinion just keeps getting thrown back and forth. It seems that everytime a huge announcement is made for one system, everybody rushes to the other one. Before PS3 and Wii were announced officially, the opinion originally sided with the PS3 because of it's brand name. The Revolution gets announced and everybody flocks to the Revolution, PS3's announcement of Blu-Ray and other stuff is announced, everybody runs back. Public opinion will always change depending on announcements. I personally had no interest in the PS3 whatsoever. But now, it's looking more and more enticing by the minute. Ironically, the opposite seems to be true for Nintendo, who, as long as they don't make any official announcements, they get tremendous support. With each successive announcement, PS3 is going up and Wii's dropping.

The $500 pricetag now becomes justifiable with all these extra features.....

Just because I support nintendo's new system doesn't mean I'm not interested in the PS3. I just happen to vehemently dislike Sony's current marketing strategy and the high price. I remember when 360 first came out, I laguhed and laughed. In a few months, sony will announce their more powerful system at a lower price the the 360. 360 is doomed, haha. Instead, Sony announced their system will actually cost more. All I could think is... Sony, where's your head? Instead, Sony has actually given the 360 a fighting chance. Instead of Sony dominating the market, they are allowing everyone to take large ammount of ground against them. I've actually considered buying a 360, something I never did with the original xbox.

I love my ps2. Because its an everybody system. Everyone owns the damn thing, and as such, it has tons of games because the potential market is huge. This was done by Sony providing a decent price and relatively low production costs. Which is not at all what I see them doing with the PS3. Instead they are following the PSP model, which makes me concerned for the PS3's future; not in whether it will do ok, but whether or not it will do great.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Yeah... I was typing that post before you made your last one there and things generally boiled down. I noticed it after the page updated that everyone left and I was the only one swinging my sword at nothing but the wind.

Therefore my apologies to all and don't respond to my last post unless you really want to.

Avanent: Don't take this personally for I have ALWAYS thought like this. I don't care about marketing, what's hot & what's not, money can be made & spent but experiances last forever (a bit cheesy, but true non the less). Therefore if I'm going to get a better experiance by spending a mere $200 more then I will, I don't like to settle. (No I'm not rich, I work part time and make $8 an hour)

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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Resistance, to be honest, is only 22GB because of the uncompressed 7.1 channel audio they have stored there. Its not high resolution textures because that would accomplish nothing, since the bandwidth would remain the same. The game, proper, is probably just a few gigs.

I really don't believe this to be the case. The developers of Lair are also claiming around 25GB for their game as well as stating that each level runs at about 4GB each.

The uncompressed argument is stupid because developers are well aware uncompressed textures will take a long time to load, plus we aren't dealing with large backbuffers or texture memory on the PS3. Simply put textures aren't uncompressed. The PS3 simply does not have the Blu-Ray-to-memory bandwidth or the memory capacity to deal with uncompressed 1500x1500+ textures.

Same deal with uncompressed sound. I'm willing to bet they don't have the optical disc bandwidth leftover to be streaming 3Mpbs for 7.1 uncompressed audio, and they sure as hell don't have the system memory to be loading that kind of audio in memory.

What is most likely is eating up the space is texture variety. Normally we are used to seeing developers re-use textures. For example the rock texture in level 1, 3 and 10 are really just the same texture being reused. With these larger games I imagine the rock textures for level 1, 3, and 10 will all be different. Another example is enemy textures. Games have a tendency to just reuse the same models for the same enemies in each level. I'm willing to bet the enemy soldiers in level 1 of Lair will be using a completely different texture set from the enemy soldiers in level 2 of lair.

Give them the space and developers will use it. No doubt we will see a nice variety of different looking areas in most PS3 games since developers can afford to create a completely new texture set for each area with the capacity Blu-Ray offers.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by avanent

Wow, I didnt realize sound was that big... I know graphics are huge compared to coding, btu I had no idea where sound fit into that.

Yeah, it's been mentioned often. Uncompressed sound is a capacity whore, especially with that many channels. To top it off, Insomniac's partnering the game's extensive environmental damage feature with textured sound (ie: different sounds when objects hit the ground, depending on what type of floor it is, how it hit) and then positioning this on the soundstage.

Edit: Damn, Cetra responded after I posted:

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I really don't believe this to be the case. The developers of Lair are also claiming around 25GB for their game as well as stating that each level runs at about 4GB each.

Could it be because of the water simulations the cell has to be running on some stages? 4GB a stage? SL BR are 25GB, it's a bit much for them to be topping it off so soon.

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The uncompressed argument is stupid because developers are well aware uncompressed textures will take a long time to load, plus we aren't dealing with large backbuffers or texture memory on the PS3. Simply put textures aren't compressed.

But they're not so huge as to take up that much space. The texture work on the dragons is impressive, but overall there seems to be a lack of either good ones or decent AF.

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Same deal with uncompressed sound. I'm willing to bet they don't have the optical disc bandwidth leftover to be streaming 3Mpbs for 7.1 uncompressed audio, and they sure as hell don't have the system memory to be loading that kind of audio in memory.

IIRC, both the CELL and RSX handle audio to some degree, so it wouldn't be a problem there. As for the BR streaming, I'd have to find out what the bandwidth is for a 2x BR drive.

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What is most likely is eating up the space is texture variety. Normally we are used to seeing developers re-use textures. For example the rock texture in level 1, 3 and 10 are really just the same texture being reused. With these larger games I imagine the rock textures for level 1, 3, and 10 will all be different. Another example is enemy textures. Games have a tendency to just reuse the same models for the same enemies in each level. I'm willing to bet the enemy soldiers in level 1 of Lair will be using a completely different texture set from the enemy soldiers in level 2 of lair.

I'll give you this much, considering the Menials (mutilated humanoid enemies in Resistance) have some of the best skin texture work around even in the close shots. Throw in the massive stages claimed by both the media and Insomniac themselves and you've got a lot of models to cover.

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Give them the space and developers will use it. No doubt we will see a nice variety of different looking areas in most PS3 games since developers can afford to create a completely new texture set for each area with the capacity Blu-Ray offers.

Well, I won't say it quite like that. The developers have the space, and the tools in front of them to present us with varied environments. Whether they're willing and/or talented enough is the question. It's what seperates the White Knight Stories and Ridge Racer 7 from Sega's pathetic golf game.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Cetra: Good point. If I can get more variety in my game that is always welcome ^^

MetalSphere: Good points, all of which seem quite plausible too.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Metal Sphere

Could it be because of the water simulations the cell has to be running on some stages? 4GB a stage? SL BR are 25GB, it's a bit much for them to be topping it off so soon.

Na those are mostly procedural in nature so they don't take much space. I bet most textures just have a few layers of damage textures. So figure the entire map is actually textured four times.

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But they're not so huge as to take up that much space. The texture work on the dragons is impressive, but overall there seems to be a lack of either good ones or decent AF.

Again it depends on a lot of things. What if the dragons have 15 levels of damage textures? This honestly isn't an unreasonable number for a main model. So you just multiplied your required texture space of one model by 15. Apply the same idea to enemy models but say with 4-5 layers. Oh and you need your normal maps and lighting maps and such for each texture layer as well. Starting to get the picture? Now because of the nature of this type of thing you won't be loading all 15 layers at once. Rather when a texture 'gets damaged' you will swap the texture out with another texture. This is commonly what is done when developers mention the streaming abilities of the Blu-Ray drive. Your entire level can be 4Gb, but you won't be loading it all into memory at once.

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IIRC, both the CELL and RSX handle audio to some degree, so it wouldn't be a problem there. As for the BR streaming, I'd have to find out what the bandwidth is for a 2x BR drive.

It isn't an issue of processing. Actually uncompressed sound has no processing requirements because...you don't need to uncompress the stream. Also 2x BR-Drive = 72Mbps. Now you might be thinking "3Mbps isn't a big deal compared to that." Well that again isn't the whole story. If you are directly streaming audio without a buffer then you can't interrupt the stream at any point to load something else or the sound will obviously skip.

Well the obvious solution is you can make a sound buffer, then if you need to interrupt your sound stream then you can start reading from the buffer. But let's consider that. I just mentioned uncompressed sound runs at about 3 Mbps. A reasonable length buffer you would need when considering the need to stream in and out textures on almost constant basis would be a 60ish MB sound buffer. You are going to use 60 MB of 256MB of main memory just to buffer your sound stream? Uh no.... And of course this is all assuming you'd even be able to do something like this. You also need to account for seek times and such when reading stuff off the disc. I just really don't see it being a reasonable option to stream uncompressed sound off the disc if you are doing any type of texture streaming which most PS3 games will be doing.

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Well, I won't say it quite like that. The developers have the space, and the tools in front of them to present us with varied environments. Whether they're willing and/or talented enough is the question. It's what separates the White Knight Stories and Ridge Racer 7 from Sega's pathetic golf game.

This is true. Developers still need to be willing to make use of such space and tools. Fortunately texturing these days don't really require a lot of manpower or time.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

PS3 Startup and Motorstorm from same magazine that broke the ZOE3/SH5 confirmation.

Source

Key points:

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1) It's quiet like a sleeping baby. A barely audible hum. With the TV on you simply can't hear it at all.
2) It's heavy like a planet. No, really. It's impossible to pick up with one hand.
3) It's shiny like a mirror. In fact, it's impossible to take a photograph of it without the flash spanging every picture into a starburst mess. And therefore it's massively prone to fingerprintage too, with the tiny amount of dust in the office magically attaching itself to its surface in seconds.
4) The PS3 joypad is very light and the tilt system is very responsive. We like.
5) The start up is amazingly fast. And game load times were faster than expected. In fact, PS3 does both at about the same speed of PSP. ie, Long load times due to the massive Blu-ray disc? Nope. Simply not an issue.
6) Andy's fingers kept sliding off the shoulder buttons. But that's because his fingers are slippery.

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1) The speed the machine sucks the disc in. Wow!
2) The PS3 start up sound - it's like an orchestra tuning up. Cool.
3) The similarity between the PS3 interface and the PSP interface.
4) Watch out for the first recorded lifting of the PS3's flaps.
5) Listen out for the fact that Sony don't officially have a name for the 'PS' button in the middle yet.
6) And check out those flashing blue and green lights. Groovy.

Originally Posted by Dan G, PSM3

Hi there. Just to clarify - we were shown a finished final PS3 in our office on Friday 29th October. And then Sony took it away again later that same day. This was a test machine that played 'gold' discs - ie, preproduction versions of Resistance and MotorStorm, which appeared complete and finished. This proves that as of the 29th October Sony have real, working, finished PS3s - although they're in short supply and they couldn't leave it with us. As for having one to keep f'rever and ever - we've been told we'll have our very own machine "in a fortnight". Hope that clears a few things up. Cheers. Dan G

Pics:

Originally Posted by Cetra

Na those are mostly procedural in nature so they don't take much space. I bet most textures just have a few layers of damage textures. So figure the entire map is actually textured four times.

Again it depends on a lot of things. What if the dragons have 15 levels of damage textures? This honestly isn't an unreasonable number for a main model. So you just multiplied your required texture space of one model by 15. Apply the same idea to enemy models but say with 4-5 layers. Oh and you need your normal maps and lighting maps and such for each texture layer as well. Starting to get the picture? Now because of the nature of this type of thing you won't be loading all 15 layers at once. Rather when a texture 'gets damaged' you will swap the texture out with another texture. This is commonly what is done when developers mention the streaming abilities of the Blu-Ray drive. Your entire level can be 4Gb, but you won't be loading it all into memory at once.

And the level itself probably has light and normal maps for the various damage textures underneath. I see where you're going. The size of the stage, the various models (cars, shelves, desks) will all have this to a lesser degree.

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It isn't an issue of processing. Actually uncompressed sound has no processing requirements because...you don't need to uncompress the stream. Also 2x BR-Drive = 72Mbps. Now you might be thinking "3Mbps isn't a big deal compared to that." Well that again isn't the whole story. If you are directly streaming audio without a buffer then you can't interrupt the stream at any point to load something else or the sound will obviously skip.

Well the obvious solution is you can make a sound buffer, then if you need to interrupt your sound stream then you can start reading from the buffer. But let's consider that. I just mentioned uncompressed sound runs at about 3 Mbps. A reasonable length buffer you would need when considering the need to stream in and out textures on almost constant basis would be a 60ish MB sound buffer. You are going to use 60 MB of 256MB of main memory just to buffer your sound stream? Uh no.... And of course this is all assuming you'd even be able to do something like this. You also need to account for seek times and such when reading stuff off the disc. I just really don't see it being a reasonable option to stream uncompressed sound off the disc if you are doing any type of texture streaming which most PS3 games will be doing.

Well, the drive alone won't be enough, it'll be caching quite a bit on the HDD itself to help it along (we'd need a 6x BR drive to equal a 12x DVD drive's streaming rate).

While what we get coming off the disc may not be uncompressed in the end, in part due to the concerns you raised, it'll likely make up a far larger part of the disc's capacity than nearly any game to date.

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This is true. Developers still need to be willing to make use of such space and tools. Fortunately texturing these days don't really require a lot of manpower or time.

Skill and art direction are, though. These two will take care of themselves though, one good group to watch is Japanese developers as they get fiddling with textures and shaders.

FELIPE NO

Bad news for Sony.

Originally Posted by The INQ

RETAILERS HAVE

given the thumbs down to the PS3 and are expecting the Sony console to be soundly beaten up by Nintendo's Wii.

A survey of retailers conducted by the Japanese media outfit Enterbrain shows that 88 percent think that the Wii will sell better over the Christmas break, only 11 percent believe the PS3 will be tops. Since this is a Japanese survey they didn’t even bother asking if they thought the Xbox 360 would go anywhere.

Out of all hardware sales, 60.7 percent Nintendo DS would be the best seller, followed by the the Nintendo Wii at 32.8 percent. The PS3 would be outclassed by the PS2 at 3.3 percent. The PS3 and the Xbox360 will have 1.6 percent each, which shows how bad it is going to get for Sony in Japan.

Sony's grand scheme seems to be quickly falling apart.

The source

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Hint: Of course retailers are going to favor a cheap console over an expensive one, they can stock more of them and get more $$$ per batch.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Of course that's true in Japan. Considering how PS3 releases with 100,000 over there. PS3 in the US should fare much better.

Besides, Japan loves the quirky stuff.

I like the quirky stuff too, but that's beside the point.

EDIT: On a second note.....The PS3 can't be lifted with one hand? Wow...is it really that heavy? Didn't see that coming....

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Omnislash124

Of course that's true in Japan. Considering how PS3 releases with 100,000 over there. PS3 in the US should fare much better.

Besides, Japan loves the quirky stuff.

I like the quirky stuff too, but that's beside the point.

EDIT: On a second note.....The PS3 can't be lifted with one hand? Wow...is it really that heavy? Didn't see that coming....

It weighs eleven pounds and is slightly wider and taller than the original Xbox, so the weight and the way it's spread make that a bad idea.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Metal Sphere

It weighs eleven pounds and is slightly wider and taller than the original Xbox, so the weight and the way it's spread make that a bad idea.

Oh wow, I really always thought it was closer to the weight of the PS2, because it never looked that big in the shots. Maybe because it was always in front of a large HDTV....

I'd be scared to move mine around if I had one....just because it looks so fragile. And if you drop it.......:aargh:

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Meh. At least the PS3 weighs a pound lighter then my 360, so that'll be a plus for me.

How ya doing, buddy?

Of course Wii will sell more this winter, there will be way more available. Don't need a survey to figure that out. Next year is the big question in who will sell the most.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Agreed. They're taking a survey right in the middle of Nintendo country -- Japan. Obviously retailers over there will put their money on the Wii selling better than the limited-supply PS3. Not only that, but the Wii will definitely be launching with likely ten times the amount of units the PS3 will be launching with.

I wonder, though, what a similar survey would result in if done in the States.

FELIPE NO

I found an interesting tidbit of info on Assasin's Creed about AI. According to Ubisoft the crowd AI of the 360 version will be slightly better then the PS3 version apparently due to it's improved threading. Not that this matters, it's just the crowd, and if I push them I want them to stay out of my way and not pursue me anyway, lol.

But really though. Is this do to improved threading of the 360? Or just that because Ubidoft has been spending so much time making 360 games lately that they're knowledge of how the PS3 works is really what's limitting them? Not that they would admitt to that one if it were true.

Link here: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3154110

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Ubisoft is very much in Microsoft's coffers after the Splinter Cell 5 exclusivity announcement. They've already got SCA in the pipes for the PS3, but to cut off the console even though by the time SC5 rolls around it'll be moving full tilt?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

That's the problem with Ubisoft. The Montreal branch always wants to go Sony only, the California branch always wants to go M$, and Japan always wants to go multiplatform. The only problem with cutting this SC after all the others being on all systems is that they've slit their throat in being able to continue the series on any other system. So if the 360 tanks, Splinter Cell will go along with it. Then again after doing what they did, perhaps they deserve it.

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