[Multiplatform] Fallout 3 - Guns with Oblivion

Depends on how much you like first person mecha combat mixed with completely forgettable normal first person shooter combat. It's also pretty anime-ey.

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By having a top-down viewpoint and not seeing things exactly as the character would see them, isn't it then less of an in-character decision?

Only insofar as the amount of information presented to the character. Fallout is not the perfect example of this since you can see rats scurrying in tunnels on the other side of the map, but nobody is saying this can't be improved.

I thought Silent Storm's system regarding the conveyance of information is pretty classy, but it's also a squad game so if one member sees, everybody sees.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Why not do some sort of randomized damage system for a FPS as well? Put in bullet randomization as well as little numbers that pop up each time you shoot an enemy that aren't necessarily the same every time. What's so hard about adding random critical hits to a FPS game?

Y'know this works in the modern Castlevania games pretty well. Mind you, side-scrolling platformers and FPS's are two different gameplay mediums, but it's not impossible to implement this well.

Yeah, you'd have the FPS purists howling angrily, because That's Not The Way Things Are Done, but different doesn't always mean bad. If you don't market the game towards the FPS crowd in the first place, as they're doing with Fallout 3's VATS system, it's more palatable that way.

It's all in the presentation, though. I'm sure we could spend all day going back and forth naming examples of good ideas that were implemented badly. I'm sure it's possible to make it work better than it did in Vampire.

How ya doing, buddy?

Vampire was also sorta being developed by a company whose previous experience involved Fallout, Arcanum, and ToEE. Entirely different styles of games. Plus getting a mid-production Source build didn't help the bug issue.

FELIPE NO

Hot damn, a new preview over at Destructoid!

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Sure, there's plenty here that reeks of Oblivion. Parallels can be made in areas like how you interact with NPCs, or the physical character creation system, which is a modified version of what was used in Oblivion. You can play it from a first-person perspective, much like your traditional shooter. Or, like Oblivion, you can switch between first-person and third-person with the click of a button; only this time, the camera is mounted over your character's shoulder, not unlike Resident Evil 4.



But unlike Oblivion's combat system (which was entirely real-time, and involved a lot of button mashing) or your average FPS (kill everything that moves as quickly as possible, OMG!), Fallout 3 offers you choices. Want to run and gun your way through a room full of Super Mutants in first person? Go right ahead, but it's certainly not encouraged. In fact, Bethesda has implemented an in-game turn-based mechanic known as V.A.T.S. -- the Vault-Tec Assisted Targeting System.

This slower, more methodical approach to combat is actually encouraged in the world of Fallout 3, as it's more accurate and certainly more rewarding for the player. When V.A.T.S. is utilized, time stops and a zoomed-in view of your enemy appears. Different areas are displayed -- a head, individual legs, arms, a weapons, and more -- and each are given its own health meter and a percentage which represents your chance to hit (which varies depending on your stats and weapon of choice). The action can be paused at any time -- assuming you have enough in-game action points -- and actions queued up, thus opening up a world of strategic-style gameplay.

It sounds like they're trying their best. The article notes that the Bethesda crew are all HUGE fans of the games and that they really really really don't want to screw this up.


Oh, and check this out...

Spoiler:

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Perhaps they're eliminating sub-hitboxes for when you're not in this slowed down time so that you can't just go BOOM HEADSHOT on every guy just because you're good at FPS games.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

Nobody is disputing this. What they are disputing is making a franchise game that doesn't play like its predecessors and billing it as a sequel. If this was Fallout: DC there wouldn't be much problem, but with Todd Howard saying he wants to "reinvent" Fallout, and calling what is basically a shooter with pause Fallout 3, it sort of means that there's no hope in there ever being another game like the first two.

See, I think that whether or not Bethesda got the license or not, we'd still never get to see another Fallout that played just like the first one. It was great then and still is now, but I think if, say, Troika picked it up Fallout fans would still be unsatisfied. We'll never really be satisfied, we just have to look at the good part of this: that we're getting a game that might be good, will have a lot of Fallout flavoring, and will hopefully present a similar role playing experience if not combat.

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Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Perhaps they're eliminating sub-hitboxes for when you're not in this slowed down time so that you can't just go BOOM HEADSHOT on every guy just because you're good at FPS games.

Shooting enemies while in normal time is counted like a standard shot to the chest no matter what? I guess I could go for that - it'd be quite the equalizer. The best way to enforce this would be to have more and more enemies with heavy chest armor, though, which will promote some odd aiming tactics.

Not that I have any business complaining, since I was forever going around in Fallout using rifles as melee weapons and scoring mad critical hits by popping everyone in the eyes.

I'd still rather have a fully turn-based game than some hybrid, though. It doesn't have to be exactly like the first two games, but I've been upset about this trend towards real time everything for years.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Darn Square and their ATB!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Darn Square and their ATB!

Let's be fair, some of the blame lays on Bioware's shoulders too, even if I did like the Baldur's Gate games.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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I think if, say, Troika picked it up Fallout fans would still be unsatisfied.

That's just dumb.

With all of the info that's coming out now I don't see the point in arguing this much any more. Fallout 3 is going to be one of the most unoriginal hack pieces of shit in 2008. I mean, they've even got a gravity gun (Suck-o-Tron).

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Not everyone bases their feelings about this release on a sense of dread and pessimism and BRING OUT YE DEAD, NIGGAS. Compared to a lot of what comes out lately, I'm not sure "not so mainstream RPG" can be called on being unoriginal and hack piece of shit compared to most everything else that gets released these days.

(of course by sense of dread and pessimism, I meant educated opinion/factual knowledge)

FELIPE NO

If you're saying that almost every game released nowadays is a piece of shit, I guess we're not really disagreeing?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Something like that. I really just keep asking myself "Why do I give a shit?" As soon as Bioshock gets released, I'll be pacified and be able to keep fooling myself about games for another 10 years.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I mean, they've even got a gravity gun (Suck-o-Tron).

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Seriously though, I'm staying optimistic about Fallout 3 simply because it could be good. And that's good enough for me until I start reading terrible reviews and play a terrible demo.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Matt

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Seriously though, I'm staying optimistic about Fallout 3 simply because it could be good. And that's good enough for me until I start reading terrible reviews and play a terrible demo.

I find life is a lot more tolerable if you're pessimistic by default. That way you never get your high hopes crushed, and when things actually turn out good, it's a pleasant surprise.

I mean, you're going to be very very sad if you're expecting Fallout 3 to be awesome and then it turns out to be a piece of suck, but if you expect it to suck and it does indeed suck, you're not nearly as upset. You even get the gratification of knowing you were right all along. Pessimism is win/win.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Not really. You could stand to establish some apathy toward the situation maybe, but there isn't really an advantage nor is it necessary to be spiteful and pessimistic towards something before you've even played it.

Look at it this way -- it could go one way or the other. There's a fine line between accepting this and lamenting it.

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Seriously though, I'm staying optimistic about Fallout 3 simply because it could be good. And that's good enough for me until I start reading terrible reviews and play a terrible demo.

There won't be a demo.

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but there isn't really an advantage nor is it necessary to be spiteful and pessimistic towards something before you've even played it.

The real advantage gained is for those being spiteful. The same reason Something Awful can't stop talking about NMA is the same reason I made this thread, it's fun to hate on things.

There's also the issue of the Lemons Market. The argument that you can't really judge something until you've actually played it defaults in favor of the developer, because you're paying them anyways regardless. The best stance to take in a lemons market is to identify the aspect of a lemon and call developers out on it, in the hopes that the final product will not be a lemon.

In most industries there are journalistic entities which identify the lemons for the benefit of consumers, but when information is controlled by the creators of the product, and journalistic opinion can be affected with perks then consumers have to trust their own judgment based on past experience.

Case in point:

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19573617/
A little validation from Masson, a writer for the French game magazine PC Jeux, and others like him can help tip the scales in the competitive game industry, where a cutting-edge title takes many years and millions of dollars to develop. That's why game designers, like movie studios, have learned to lavishly court such tastemakers, the guys who write for the major blogs and magazines and play a key role in today's big-bucks video game industry.

Masson added Washington to his list of world travels last month, to check out an upcoming title from the Rockville-based game studio Bethesda Softworks. The company flew Masson and about 60 other writers in from as far away as Australia and Japan to give them an early look at the company's Fallout 3, scheduled for release late next year.

In addition to an hour-long demo and chats with the game's designers, the trip included a two-night stay in downtown's swank Helix Hotel, dinner at Logan Tavern and a private party at a nightclub in Adams Morgan. Airfare, hotel, food, drinks and shuttle bus were provided, courtesy of Bethesda Softworks. Although a few attendees paid their own way, most did not.

"What we're trying to accomplish with an event like this is to have the undivided attention of the important people in our industry, that cover the industry," said Pete Hines, vice president of marketing at Bethesda Softworks, whose Fallout 3 will be set in a version of Washington that's been scorched by war. "There are a lot of titles out there competing for attention."

It looks like Bethesda Softworks is getting that attention: Fallout 3 is scheduled to soon grace the covers of 20 gamer magazines, largely as a result of the event.

Bethesda Softworks' parent company, ZeniMax, is privately held and won't disclose the game's budget, but it's not uncommon for the budgets of cutting-edge titles like Fallout 3 to exceed $20 million, including marketing costs.

With this type of investment to recoup, Hines said, his job is to whet the appetites of gamers, and that process starts with getting the press salivating. To build interest in the upcoming Navy SEAL game Rogue Warrior, for example, the company flew writers to Las Vegas, where they visited a firing range and tried sniper rifles and AK-47s.

In most industries, as with gaming, these kind of events aren't uncommon. However, as with all other industries access to these kind of perks can usually be denied because the publisher controls the nature of information. If a journalist does not allow himself to be bought, then he and his magazine is blacklisted by the publisher, and they stand to lose exclusives.

So if we can't trust journalists to be critical, then we have to be critical. It's not just about hating on something for me, it's also because I don't want people to buy a lemon, and especially don't want them thinking that a franchise should be defined by lemons.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Yes, save the ignorant masses... from themselves?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

How dramatic. I love it.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Yes, save the ignorant masses... from themselves?

I like to think of it as a public service, but really it's just a hobby.

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I imagine several people feel that way, it's just that I have a hard time believing that one community is going to band together and not go the fuck away once Fallout 3 is released, re-official redundantly deemed shitty for redundancy, leaving us right back where we started:

With journalism that's still functioning with more PR and less whatever the hell journalism is supposed to do... inform impartially, I don't know. I think any one person who truly cares about games knows better than to take these sort of media blitzes seriously. At that, I would rather people begin to fix the problem, rather than have this non-effective witch hunt that isn't going to do anything but let them pat themselves collectively on the back.

"Yeah, we showed those guys, now they only sold 1/100000000 less copies of Fallout 3 because of us! YEAH!"

I realize every bit helps, but sound and fury is still sound and fury. Get in the industry, make games, talk about games where it isn't a vacuous void of stupid. Make a fucking difference or shut the fuck up.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

They already have. The reason I stopped posting at NMA and became a Codex member is because the Codex actually has the potential to affect game development with indies or other devs. There's a thread right here where half the Codex explains to a Gamespy editor why he isn't doing his job. It's easier than actually creating our own games because some of us actually have lives outside of gaming.

Then again, what the fuck do you care what people do with their free time? Or did "this is a hobby" not get through to you?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Then again, what the fuck do you care what people do with their free time? Or did "this is a hobby" not get through to you?

Did I strike a nerve, Brady? No, really. You haven't convinced me I've said anything, well, stupid. Not yet, anyway. I'm sure it's not beyond your scope and whatever.

But, answer to the question: "What do I care?" Well, I'd say common decency. That and, actually making a difference. Which is sad considering in the end "It's just a game, faggots." Oops, stepped on someone's childhood there.

Nerds getting all hurt up about how their "hobby" isn't being made the way they like it is laughable if they don't do anything about it. SOMETHING. And no, yelling out in mass isn't doing anything. Present a solution, get it so saturated that the target audience can't fucking see straight because Turn Based RPG is falling from their eye-sockets and erupting from their mouths.

Because, really, you're not the target fucking audience, you're being fucked by the system. I understand this, I don't agree with it. Yet... "This is a hobby" "In my opinion", got anymore copouts?

I'm somehow supposed to believe that there can be a legion of Spider-Jerusalem's and this shit is serious business. It's not. It's why I take offense to the people who generally just flap their jaws and influence like, maybe one or two people (well, not really, those people agreed with them anyway). It's why I view your Fallout event as commendable. The idea you can expose someone to a game is a positive thing.

A guy I used to talk games with wouldn't just talk about games with me. He'd send me games that he'd talk so often with me about. I'd become exposed and formulate my own opinions about them, find my own reasons about liking them. These days, polarizing and dividing people from a vacuous cave and sending high level annoyance to someone who isn't going to listen to you anyway. It's why I view NMA's shit as laughable nerd garbage.

Wait, that's most anyone who's a gamer.

Three comprehensive links doesn't account for every faggot in-between the lines that comprises any gaming collective... They stick to their avenue of interest and I'm supposed to care when they point out that "All of gaming is fucked up." Or, narrowing it down, "You're fucking up Fallout." The game will be released, life will go on and their childhood will be ruined. Last I checked, Loonatics is still being animated.

Yes, it is their hobby, but I think common decency accounts for something. Memes, victim complexes... yeah, I think I draw a line there.

"Make the fucking games."

Good on those guys who did their own thing, my problem wasn't with them. I mean, independent comic labels don't really change things like the racial issues and portrayals of women in mainstream comics... but that's why people infiltrate the system, right? Or not, I guess.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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You haven't convinced me I've said anything, well, stupid. Not yet, anyway. I'm sure it's not beyond your scope and whatever.

I'm pretty sure we've already come to the conclusion that you haven't really said anything stupid and that we disagree fundamentally in opinion. Don't think I'm attacking you, because I'm not.

I also think you're confusing what I'm talking about in regards to my hobby. It isn't just gaming or Fallout, talking about games and exposing lemons is my hobby. I've already written quite a bit of material concerning my own reviews of several games, and a series of (unfinished) papers on how to go about designing a CRPG. If you want to read some of them, I can send them to you, and really the one I'm most proud of was my review for Just Cause. I posted most of them in my chocojournal because I don't actually think it's serious business, it's just a hobby.

This line obviously becomes blurred in regards to Fallout because it's my favorite gaming franchise. Granted I'm acting pretty crazy over Fallout, but then it's also something that's important to me. Nobody said that you had to care, because the message is out there for anybody that does.

People react this way because they feel that the general public has lost all sense of taste. Granted it's all a meaningless struggle into oblivion until "good taste" is redefined by the fad of the era, but I'm at least trying to have fun getting there. (oblivion)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I'm pretty sure we've already come to the conclusion that you haven't really said anything stupid and that we disagree fundamentally in opinion. Don't think I'm attacking you, because I'm not.

I also think you're confusing what I'm talking about in regards to my hobby. It isn't just gaming or Fallout, talking about games and exposing lemons is my hobby. I've already written quite a bit of material concerning my own reviews of several games, and a series of (unfinished) papers on how to go about designing a CRPG. If you want to read some of them, I can send them to you, and really the one I'm most proud of was my review for Just Cause. I posted most of them in my chocojournal because I don't actually think it's serious business, it's just a hobby.

This line obviously becomes blurred in regards to Fallout because it's my favorite gaming franchise. Granted I'm acting pretty crazy over Fallout, but then it's also something that's important to me. Nobody said that you had to care, because the message is out there for anybody that does.

People react this way because they feel that the general public has lost all sense of taste. Granted it's all a meaningless struggle into oblivion until "good taste" is redefined by the fad of the era, but I'm at least trying to have fun getting there. (oblivion)

I took it as a jab was all. Everything else is my sound and fury. I do wish there was more involvement past being critical, not that I didn't drive that into the ground already. I know where you stand, but I would hope that a difference is made past just keeping with the status quo. Frankly, i would like to believe it isn't all meaningless, but I'd be lying.

I was speaking idiomatically.