[PS2] Xenosaga III: Also Sprach Zarathustra

You got to see plenty of Ziggy's past in Pied Piper.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Wasn't that only a Japanese text based cell phone game?

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by B.K.

You got to see plenty of Ziggy's past in Pied Piper.

Yes, just go and read the transcripts and summaries of Pied Piper. Just that little bit of backstory goes a long way in Episode III ( the same goes for Xenosaga: The Missing Year transcripts ).

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Cobalt Katze

Fair enough, Mr. Skills It's just fun trying to put pieces together, even if they don't fit.

Oh, it would be absolutely mindblowing and and completely badass if they linked together like that. One of the greatest (if the the greatest RPG stories ever told, in that case. It's too bad that it doesn't though, and that people wish it did so badly that they either ignore or just forget about the specifics that make it impossible.

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Yeah, lots of re-writing would have to occur, but you do have to wonder what exactly they were going to go for in a 6-episode Xenosaga rather than what we got in 3.

Alas, we'll probably never a know. And that makes me sad.

Originally Posted by Lunar Seal

I feel like I spent a majority of this game taking on bullshit quests that did nothing to further develop the story.

Were you even paying attention?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by B.K.

You got to see plenty of Ziggy's past in Pied Piper.

haven't played it, because i don't own the system ;-;

There's nowhere I can't reach.

If you can't play it, read it! ... And let me know how it turns out, because I haven't yet.. I'm not a big fan of Ziggy.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

It's actually a pretty cool story Deals with much more than just Jan.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Cobalt Katze

It's actually a pretty cool story Deals with much more than just Jan.

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Oh, Wilhelm. You are so funny.

And hey, Melisse/Melis started up Scientia, and she's in Pied Piper, so yeah.

How ya doing, buddy?

Did anyone else laugh at the appearance of

Spoiler:

Weltall as a boss? Not only does he use the same moves as before, but once you beat him, he attempts to activate System-Id, only to run out of juice and fly away. Awesome.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I didn't laugh, but I went "OH HELL YEAH THIS IS GONNA BE A KICK-ASS BOSS FIGHT". I was real hyped with it's appearence. Fucking nostalgically ingenious. I wish I saved at the part so I can replay it over and over again.

FELIPE NO

This is off topic but... Anyone know the name of the regular battle music in Xenosaga Episode II? Too lazy to rip it myself... haha

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Don't think it has a name, since the battle music was never part of a released/named OST.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

ya, i just put it as "Battle" lol

There's nowhere I can't reach.

anyone got it?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I have almost everything related to Xenogears and Xenosaga. Only thing I'm missing are the cutscenes from Episode 1. I wish there was a torrent with them or something, Blue Laguna's download method sucks..

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Speaking of music, does anyone know the trackname of the ominous cello/violin song playing during chaos and Nephilim's first conversation?

If that song isn't included in the Best Collection, are there plans to release a complete soundtrack?

Just finished Disc 1 today, which ended in a very epic bang. I love it when things come full circle, finally bringing meaning to the cutscenes from Episode I. Although I'm most concerned with Shion's lack of common sense, and I'm told she's going to get far, far stupider.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Did anyone else laugh at the appearance of

Spoiler:

Weltall as a boss? Not only does he use the same moves as before, but once you beat him, he attempts to activate System-Id, only to run out of juice and fly away. Awesome.

Wait'll you get further into Disc 2.

On my way to the final area -- after stopping to get a few characters' ultimate weapons. Might try and take on Omega-Id and Erde Kaiser Sigma, too. I hope to beat it tonight since Okami arrives tomorrow. Can't wait to see how it all ends.

Edit: Just fought both battles. EKS was a joke, but Id was INTENSE -- best fight in the game. Onto the end.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I just finished the game and I wanted to throw my two sense in about the Xenogears-Xenosaga connections because I think the connections are obvious and more coherent than most seem to think. This could get long to bear with me:

Spoiler:

First off, as pointed out already I understand some specifics don't match, but it doesn't matter much when you consider the idea is still basically the same. Abel being U-DO in Xenosaga and Abel only being a contact of the Wave-Existence in Xenogears for example have different specifics, but the concept is still exactly the same. He has a relation to an upper dimensional being which gives him certain abilities which are virtually identical in both cases. With that said here are some things I've noticed.


First off, I agree that KOS-MOS and chaos have no direct connection to Xenogears. I don't even believe they are meant to be referenced in any way because both of them have returned to Earth during the Xenogears timeline. They simply are not part of the Xenogears story because of this. If I had to guess, they would show up in Episode VI which was to be when humankind returns to Earth and these two would be waiting there.

U-DO is the wave existence, not chaos. By his very nature chaos cannot be a higher dimensional wave existence as he is basically the anti-existence to such beings.

Abel and Nephilim ARE the Abel and 'Elly' from Xenogears. There are so many clues to this which far outweigh some of the specifics which don't match. First off, some of the obvious things are they share the same appearances. Secondly, the database specifically states that Abel is the anti-existence to Nephilim, the same exact situation Abel/Fei and Elly share in Xenogears where Fei is the Contact and Elly is his anti-existence(Antitype). Third, the scene at the end where Nephilim merges with Mary and Abel as a child looks upon here in awe is scene that is also in Xenogears.

As for Nephilim being Elly even though Elly was created by Deus, the information still fits. First Nephilim is simply a consciousness that exists in the UNM along with pretty much every other consciousness that isn't already linked to a physical body. So remember, the physical existence of Elly was first created by the Wave-Existence out of Abel's need for a mother. It's completely possible Nephilim's consciousness was simply given physical form.

Another supporting aspect that Nephilim and Elly are the same person is their respective roles. Mary is basically a guide to salvation. Elly grows into the exact same personally late in the Xenogears storyline while in her previous life as Sophia she again served as a spiritual figurehead which helped lead people to their salvation.

As for the Jin-Citan thing, again I think it is possible. The database specifics that Jins consciousness still exists in the UNM. Considering how both MOMO and KOS-MOS came to be, I think Deus did the exact same thing when creating the first humans in Xenogears. Physical bodies were created then consciousness from the UNM are infused into those bodies. This concept also makes me believe that Cain in Xenogears may very well be Wilhelm reborn while the Gazel ministry may be other major figureheads reborn from Xenosaga who would be aware of Lost Jerusalem.


Finally, I do also believe the Omega system is Deus. Consider a few things first. Everyone that actually knows of the true purpose of the Omega system is dead or not present. A group of humans come upon the thing and realize it is a system that has a tremendous amount of energy output. Obviously it would be easy enough to adapt the system to be some type of planet buster weapon thus the concept of Deus is born from the Omega system. Also, a few supporting ideas from Xenosaga include the fact that the Omega core in Abel's Ark has the exact same four floating orbs of energy that the Deus core has at the end of Xenogears. Not only that but the final form of Omega, Omega Metempsychosis looks very similar to the final form of Deus down having two small gears on each side of it.

Okay, deep breath:

Spoiler:

So with that background this is my take on what happens from here and how Xenosaga and Xenogears are linked. I understand some things might be sketchy because I may be trying to directly link things. But small rewrites in a Xenogears remake would fix a lot of things.

First, chaos returns to Earth along with 80%+ of human population in the Universe. KOS-MOS also finds her way there floating in space which is somewhat sported by the ending. So basically these two are out of the storyline from this point. The Elsa crew also started their long journey to Earth so all of them are also out of the picture at this point.

So what we are left with is a handful of human survivors scattered around the galaxy and a non-functioning UNM which was pretty much the basis for a lot of human technology and advancement at the time. Time passes and the other main characters left over from Xenosaga slowly fade into history.

So humans are basically milling around for a while and due to the lack of the UNM possibly even slowly regressing in technology. Little by little the major 'relics of mankind are gathered,' the Merkabah, the ESes, Omega Universitas, even the Zohar and then the Omega system. Omega and the Zohar are eventually redeveloped into a weapon which threatens to destroy what little is left of humanity.

So on the verge of total destruction the humans decide to ban together and put all their resources into building the Eldridge, the final hope of humankind. Every piece of human collected history is integrated into it and the Omega system along with the Zohar are decided to be the power source for the huge ship being is the most powerful thing known to exist at the time. After it is done, the small amount of remaining humans are loaded up onto the thing and among them is Abel who is perhaps some type of reincarnation or even the original thrust out of phase by some event that also removes Omega and the Zohar from the same phase space.

Again some more milling around is done on the ship until eventually Abel finds his way into the core room making direct contact with both the Zohar and the Omega system. Due to his past relationship with both, crazy things start to happen such as U-DO (Wave-Existence) realizing Abel's will and bring Nephilim(Mary) into physical being. All the while the Omega system is also being effected by Abel's present and eventually becomes self aware.

And from there we are into the opening FMV in Xenogears and we all know what happens after that.

Just some extras thoughts to add not already mentioned: At the end of Xenogears Deus actually resurrects Abel's Ark, hence why the angel type Gnosis show up in both Xenogears and Xenosaga as well as to why the cores in the two games look similar.

I would say the only thing that really bothers me is the Anima relics. I can't really think of possible reason as to why they would show up again in Xenogears if they had already been reintegrated into chaos at the end of Xenosaga.

FELIPE NO

There is another flaw:

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In gears, the Zohar is "occupied" with the Wave existence, which has been trapped in there for god knows how long. but in Saga, U-DO's just there, he doesn't really do anything, and he has no desire of being freed at the end of the machinations of his plans. Almost all of the events in Gears where orchestrated by the WE for that sole purpose. U-DO however, is not trapped,, he exists on a higher level, and the Zohar merely serves as a way for him to connect with mankind.

The ES would also be useless, since their main power source, the anima vessels, is gone. Even if they develop a new engine like they did for Asher, they still won't have the same power as the omnigears.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Yes, Cetra, all those similarities are there because the stories are similar, have similar themes, and there are numerous cameo appearances and other fanservice and nods to Gears fans. But the writers and devs have said time and time again that the stories are NOT linked. They can't continue the story. Saga is not meant to be a prequel to Gears. I really don't know how many times people have to say this. It's fun to draw conclusions, sure. But it's just not the case. You're filling in blanks in various places and making wild assumptions here to boot.

Besides, there are too many inconsistenancies like I've previously mentioned, and to link them you need to make many iffy connections that were never there in the games or design materials, and every single theory I've seen has the people making it making wild assumptions and just guessing about things.

I will repeat for good measure. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME TIMELINE. IT COULD NOT EVEN WORK. The writers even say so. Yeesh.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Colonel Skills

Yes, Cetra, all those similarities are there because the stories are similar, have similar themes, and there are numerous cameo appearances and other fanservice and nods to Gears fans. But the writers and devs have said time and time again that the stories are NOT linked. They can't continue the story. Saga is not meant to be a prequel to Gears. I really don't know how many times people have to say this. It's fun to draw conclusions, sure. But it's just not the case. You're filling in blanks in various places and making wild assumptions here to boot.

Besides, there are too many inconsistenancies like I've previously mentioned, and to link them you need to make many iffy connections that were never there in the games or design materials, and every single theory I've seen has the people making it making wild assumptions and just guessing about things.

I will repeat for good measure. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME TIMELINE. IT COULD NOT EVEN WORK. The writers even say so. Yeesh.

I'm not really making any wild assumptions. Most are supported by in game events from both games. I personally think the wild assumption is completely dismissing the obvious connections because some things don't work. Look at the facts I presented. There is more supporting information FOR the link between the two games than missing pieces.

Let's take a nice example here:

Spoiler:

U-DO is a higher dimensional existence in a wave universe. It uses observation terminals to observe the dimensional Universe. It specifically states to Shion that it exists as it is observed.

The Wave Existence is a higher dimensional existence in a wave universe. It uses observation terminals to observe the dimensional Universe. It specifically states to Abel that it exists as it is observed.

Conclusion: They aren't the same because U-DO isn't trapped in the Zohar at the time.

Wait, what? Which one here is a wild assumption based on presented facts again?

The writers only said Xenosaga isn't a direct prequel to the actual Xenogears game. That is, they were free to make changes as they wanted to in attempts to make a better story. But that doesn't change the fact that the basics of Xenogears were not draw upon and linked upon in Xenosaga. They were planning on REWRITING Xenogears from the beginning. A rewrite still reuses basic plot points. They never said the stories were not linked, not once.

How ya doing, buddy?

No, you're wrong.

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TT: Now that we are under a different company, we figured we should start everything from scratch all over again. Though there are familiar faces that serve as important characters in Xenosaga, others are more like self-parodies, so we don't really want Xenogears fans to overreact. Like movies, sometimes you have the director of the movie or friend of the leading actor appearing as cameos, so it's similar to that.

If that's not a flat out denial that the stories are not directly linked, I don't know what is.

And Gears would never once confirmed to be rewritten. It was left out there as a potential maybe, and then the idea was shortly abandoned afterwards, but it was never confirmed that they were going to redo Fei's story. If you read that article I linked you'll see that they say they might do it but don't really confirm it or anything.

And yes, I'd say some of your theories about

Spoiler:

Abel for example, are rather "wild" in the smallest sense of the word. Abel in Gears is a human boy. The only one who survives the Eldridge Crash and is killed later on by Cain. He's given eternal life through reincarnation by the Zohar. Abel being a regular human tasked with freeing the WE and Abel being a MANIFESTATION of the WE is too different to just connect like that, yes.

And most of your entire second spoiler block is speculation. There isn't enough data from either game to draw those conclusions. The same goes for the UMN link to Deus and how Citan ended up looking like he did. Citan wouldn't have parents if he was created by Kadamony directly and based off of Jin's conciousness, (assuming if your theory was true.) It just doesn't hold up based on what's confirmed in either story.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Colonel Skills

If that's not a flat out denial that the stories are not directly linked, I don't know what is.

No actually, you know what that tells me? Exactly what I said. They wanted to cover their asses and be free to make changes to the story if they found it necessary. This is no way denies the links aren't intentional.

Or let us break that quote down just a bit more to make you happy:

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Though there are familiar faces that serve as important characters in Xenosaga, others are more like self-parodies

Spoiler:

So "familiar faces that serve as important characters in Xenosaga" can translate to Nephilim, Abel, Jin, and "others are more like self-parodies" can translate into Hammer, that general with the X face paint and Big Joe.

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And yes, I'd say some of your theories about

Spoiler:

Abel for example, are rather "wild" in the smallest sense of the word. Abel in Gears is a human boy. The only one who survives the Eldridge Crash and is killed later on by Cain. He's given eternal life through reincarnation by the Zohar. Abel being a regular human tasked with freeing the WE and Abel being a MANIFESTATION of the WE is too different to just connect like that, yes.

Spoiler:

Nope, in Xenogears it states the reason Abel survived the crash was because of the power he inherited from the WE. He was already beyond human before the crash.

And I find it funny that you dismiss all of the other connections because you can't replace "Abel was enhanced by the WE" with "Abel was given life by the WE." Really, exactly how much impact would this small change make? If U-DO somehow becomes trapped in the Zohar, would it not make sense to give his lower dimensional observation terminal the task of freeing it?

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Spoiler:

And most of your entire second spoiler block is speculation. There isn't enough data from either game to draw those conclusions. The same goes for the UMN link to Deus and how Citan ended up looking like he did. Citan wouldn't have parents if he was created by Kadamony directly and based off of Jin's conciousness, (assuming if your theory was true.) It just doesn't hold up based on what's confirmed in either story.

Spoiler:

That's assuming he was born normally and his parents were foster parents. Or that his bloodline isn't capable of passing down certain traits like many other important figures in Xenogears. Of course either way would be 'wild speculation', but not any more than assuming he was born normally since it was never stated.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

These quote/spoiler boxes are going to look like hell when all is said and done here.

Originally Posted by Cetra

No actually, you know what that tells me? Exactly what I said. They wanted to cover their asses and be free to make changes to the story if they found it necessary. This is no way denies the links aren't intentional.

I never meant to imply that the links weren't intential. They are. However, it's also obvious by the rather numerous inconsistencies and various quotes by Monolith that they are not the same timeline. I said it before, and I'll say it again, it is ALL in the details. With rewriting, like oyu're doing here, it could fit. But as it stands, it's too much to just assume "this is that" and go with it.

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Spoiler:

So "familiar faces that serve as important characters in Xenosaga" can translate to Nephilim, Abel, Jin, and "others are more like self-parodies" can translate into Hammer, that general with the X face paint and Big Joe.

I'll agree than the quote is anbigious in how one can interpret it, but when I read that all it says to me is that there is plenty of fanservice but the game isn't a direct prequel.

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Spoiler:

Nope, in Xenogears it states the reason Abel survived the crash was because of the power he inherited from the WE. He was already beyond human before the crash.

And I find it funny that you dismiss all of the other connections because you can't replace "Abel was enhanced by the WE" with "Abel was given life by the WE." Really, exactly how much impact would this small change make? If U-DO somehow becomes trapped in the Zohar, would it not make sense to give his lower dimensional observation terminal the task of freeing it?

Spoiler:

This depends on your interpretation of the pregame events. Abel came into contact with the Zohar (in the Gears timeline at least) right before the Eldridge got taken over by Deus. That's when he got his extra powers so he could survive the Crash. To assume the chain of events you laid out for it, Abel just has to be hanging out on the Eldridge for whatever reason. I suppose this could be explained by that the Wave Existance being trapped during the initial Deus test summoned Abel in some way to get on board and go meet up with it right before Deus flipped out. I'll admit that that is the best connection between the two games that I'e seen, but the way the Perfect Works read to me was that Abel was just a boy on the cruiser at the time. So this is an interpretation thing. I still don't think the wave existance would have to bestow powers upon it's own physical manifestation though, hence why I still don't think this connection makes compelte sense.

And I find it funny that you don't realize you're filling in blanks with information you're pulling out of nowhere. I already said multiple times that it would take a rewrite to link Gears up. As it stands though, the inconsistencies prevent it from matching up perfectly like that. That's all. I am refusing to replace parts of the story to make everything fit magically together, this is true. You can change your interpretation of things though if you'd like. It's just not something I'm going to do.

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Spoiler:

That's assuming he was born normally and his parents were foster parents. Or that his bloodline isn't capable of passing down certain traits like many other important figures in Xenogears. Of course either way would be 'wild speculation', but not any more than assuming he was born normally since it was never stated.

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I'm sorry, I find it hard to say that assuming someone was born normally and assuming someone has special traits can both be classified as wild speculation. You're filling in blanks to make it so that Citan is at least somewhat related to Jin. Considering Gears did a pretty good job of telling us what was special about each character, you think it would let us know if something was interesting about Citan. But you're right, it doesn't. So I guess I'm free to think that because it's not explained, he's normal, and you're free to think that because it's not explained, he's got a ton of all-the-sudden very convient traits that were never brought up before.

How ya doing, buddy?

I have finished the game.

The only thing I failed to do was defeat Erde Kaiser Sigma without having all three Erdes. About 15% HP left and he used this attack that wiped us all out. I can't beat Omega ID so..whatever.

The final boss wasn't too hard, but he wasn't easy either. The key to my victory was keeping up Defensive, Quick and Balance, using Shion, KOS-MOS, and Jin, and switching in MOMO for nuking.

The boss before the final was way too easy and I made some of the most silly mistakes ever. Mistakes that would normally get you killed. He absorbs fire damage but I didn't know this until I used KOS-MOS's final teck attack, healing him for 5000 points, oops.

Allen owned Kevin hahahaha.

Guess I'm going to shoot for lvl99 and get payback against Sigma.

I want to add that if

Spoiler:

there was one thing in the game that I could have had done, it would have been to create a scenario in Labrynthos to stop those 27-series Asura's from making Aoi into a human shishkabob.

Shion can keep the rest of her past, good and bad, but that is one memory I would not allow to exist.

My respect for both Kevin and Jin went up during the final moments of game.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?