FFShrine

Originally Posted by Worm

But, the line between these problems and not giving away your work for free is not a straight one.

I fail to see ANY line connecting the two. "This music is simple, so it must suck and I dislike it... and thus I have to steal it"?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Great, Tommy, way to make me feel guilty about downloading FFVI Chocobo Theme eight years ago >=/

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Worm

Can someone explain this argument to me?

I'm not sure if 'commercialization' is completely the right word, and of course the link is not direct. There just seems to be a coupling between something getting popular and its quality going down the drain.

The more influential people put their filthy hands in the mix, the worse the results are.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Kishin

There just seems to be a coupling between something getting popular and its quality going down the drain.

We have a word for that.



but this picture details it so much better.

Kishin... your sig-cartoon is wearing...

...Oh my god.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Worm

Can someone explain this argument to me? Asking for compensation for your work means you're the one to blame for an overall decrease in quality? It takes an incredible amount of gall to say, "Look, if we didn't have to pay for all of this music, none of this would have happened."

I am sympathetic to perceived problems such as the intentional simplification of music for mass consumption. But, the line between these problems and not giving away your work for free is not a straight one. It's insulting to lay all the blame on the artists as if it were a clear case of "selling out" in every instance.

It seems particularly irrelevant with respect to Video Games Live, the point of which is to rearrange and glorify music that has already been created.

Thank-you for bringing sanity to this thread.



Tommy


==========================

Originally Posted by LeHah

I fail to see ANY line connecting the two. "This music is simple, so it must suck and I dislike it... and thus I have to steal it"?

T.T.


===========================

Originally Posted by Pizza Helmet von Cuntingham

Great, Tommy, way to make me feel guilty about downloading FFVI Chocobo Theme eight years ago >=/

Oh... now I feel guilty that I made you feel guilty. I just e-mailed Uematsu and he told me it was okay for you to do it that one time. So no worries, you're off the hook.



T.T.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I'd like to liken what you're doing here to a gay man walking into a fundamentalist church in Alabama and asking them to stop denying him the right to marry.
On a grassroots level, most problems like this aren't going to be solved unless you employ a massive army of propagandists.

I can maybe believe that piracy has hurt record sales in the long run (although I would have to give much scrutiny to any studies saying so), there is no possible way there are any credible studies regarding filesharing and VGM.
I know, for a fact, that without the advent of the internet (and in effect, file sharing), there is no way I would have ever been exposed so thoroughly to the VGM genre. Without having downloaded hundreds of albums, I'd probably still be stuck on mainstream media for the most part, and I would probably never even consider buying a VGM Live album.


Also, I like the fact that a figurehead in the VGM industry comes and posts on our forums. It's wonderful. It is, however, less than vibrant that you rarely come to say anything other than plug your show or interject on topics about it. You obviously have time to nitpick all these things. How about you come around sometime and not talk about VG Live?

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Now that we are all here discussing the morality of FFShrine's piracy activities, as well as whether or not illegal filesharing is okay: Is Gamingforce ready to take responsibility for damages incurred by their 10+ years of music piracy and shut down both My Stuff and Concert Hall as well as their subforums?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Nice try, bobo

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but I'm not bobo.

You're not at all concerned over the possibility of another DMCA notice? I do believe both GFF and VGMdb.net are hosted on the same server, last I heard.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

GFF is practically dead nowadays, anyway.

How ya doing, buddy?

Yes, I'm aware that VGMdb doesn't advocate piracy. Gamingforce still does, however; both places are run and managed by the same people, and both sites are on the same server. Both sites risk shutdown if Gamingforce receives another cease and desist letter, as they are on the same hard drive. At least, that's what I imagine, or am I wrong here?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Our host follows DMCA procedure, so we'll be given time to remove the offending content.

And no, GFF and VGMdb aren't managed by the same people anymore.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Zephyrin

Also, I like the fact that a figurehead in the VGM industry comes and posts on our forums. It's wonderful. It is, however, less than vibrant that you rarely come to say anything other than plug your show or interject on topics about it. You obviously have time to nitpick all these things. How about you come around sometime and not talk about VG Live?

Because I work 20 hours a day making stuff you can steal.

And I'd rather not subject myself to the clear lack of respect that some people seem to relish in here.



Tommy

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Don't mind LiquidAcid. He's obviously an idiot who's never worked a day of his life just to have someone steal his paycheck. Sure, it's easy to demonize the record labels for killing creativity but when you pirate music you are also fucking over the artist. So basically, LiquidAcid want's his cake and eat it too. If you want to support music, you do so with your wallet. This issue seems pretty black and white to me. I also don't understand why he's trying to argue piracy to someone who works in the game music industry. Also, it's illegal. So I suppose if he wants to increase his chances of paying enormous fines or going to jail, that's really up to him.

FELIPE NO

This line of argument about piracy is disgusting. Admitting you pirate is one thing. Plenty of people do it, and most are aware that it is wrong, although they may not be properly aware of the degree of wrongness.

But people like LiquidAcid who jump through thousands of logical hoops to say they're in the right for stealing people's work are just stupid. I have not and will never understand the line of thinking that "because I wouldn't buy it anyway, I have a right to steal it to demonstrate why I won't buy it. And there was that one time that I bought a game after stealing it so doesn't that mean I added a sale that otherwise wouldn't have happened?"

Shit, you know you're in the wrong when LeHah, a person who once threatened DMCA takedowns after losing an internet slapfight, is disagreeing with you.

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This discussion has pretty much ended on page 1. You know it's over when people show up who visit this part of the board perhaps once a year and only for the sake of the arguement.

I'll just respond to what Tommy said..

Originally Posted by Tommy Tallarico

In fact the only people I've seen pirate our products are the hardcore game music fans.

Quite frankly, that's unfair to say. There's no market research about who illegaly downloaded what. There's always a voiceful minority, but 'hardcore' comes on so many levels, you just cannot generalize it. Here's another hardcore:

Originally Posted by Tommy Tallarico

it's only true among the "hardcore" thieves who will never pay for anything digital anyway

I can guarantee you that every board with questionnable content has thousands of lurkers who don't brag about their piracy, but do the same damage.

Originally Posted by Tommy Tallarico

It's not an entirely correct statement to say that most game composers don't hold rights to their music (Mitsuda-san for example owns all the music to Chrono Cross).

Mitsuda-san is a great man who has created beautiful music, and he's a very nice person as well. His greatness has allowed him to become freelance, create his own record label and start his own studio to bring in new talent. He is not the majority I'm talking about. And please don't read that as an excuse to download his works, it's the opposite.

So yeah, I don't want to defend piracy, but one has to draw the line between ambitious projects like VGM concerts, independent labels (EGG music seemingly has no problem with piracy) and on the other side, composers whose works can only be listened to if you e.g. pre-order some obscure Japanese game nobody in the West would ever admit to playing (and honestly, I bought almost ten of these bonus soundtrack CDs from Yahoo Japan Auctions this month).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Teioh

This discussion has pretty much ended on page 1. You know it's over when people show up who visit this part of the board perhaps once a year and only for the sake of the arguement.

I'll just respond to what Tommy said..


Quite frankly, that's unfair to say. There's no market research about who illegaly downloaded what. There's always a voiceful minority, but 'hardcore' comes on so many levels, you just cannot generalize it. Here's another hardcore:

I can guarantee you that every board with questionnable content has thousands of lurkers who don't brag about their piracy, but do the same damage.


Mitsuda-san is a great man who has created beautiful music, and he's a very nice person as well. His greatness has allowed him to become freelance, create his own record label and start his own studio to bring in new talent. He is not the majority I'm talking about. And please don't read that as an excuse to download his works, it's the opposite.

So yeah, I don't want to defend piracy, but one has to draw the line between ambitious projects like VGM concerts, independent labels (EGG music seemingly has no problem with piracy) and on the other side, composers whose works can only be listened to if you e.g. pre-order some obscure Japanese game nobody in the West would ever admit to playing (and honestly, I bought almost ten of these bonus soundtrack CDs from Yahoo Japan Auctions this month).

Oh, I think you're being a little selective with my quotes and examples to try and show your side of the arguement which at its core will still always be... it's okay to blatently take something that is for sale and not pay for it. I guess if some folks here can keep coming up with unique ways to justify their actions, that somehow makes it okay in their own minds and they won't feel as guilty? But I think deep down, you know it's wrong... but you'll still continue to do it anyway. I guess you could say it's a testament of the type of person you really are? I hope not.

In fact, under these same rules, we should be able to take anything from anyone in the world and not pay them for it, correct? Have some of you somehow justified in your mind that a musician or composer is somehow different and we shouldn't be held under the same rules as say *insert your parents job here*?? Next time your parents come home and they tell you that they just worked all year on making something but people are just taking it without paying... look them in the eye and tell them the same line of bullshit you're passing around here.

But hold on... If it's a particular composer that you like ("Mitsuda-san is a great man that creates beautiful music... don't download his works")... then you shouldn't take from him. So it's just the composers and projects that you don't personally like and don't respect. Ah! Gotcha.

But all that being said and more to your specific arguement, the realities still remain the same which is... 1. I've only ever seen my albums illegally posted on hardcore music sites where hardcore game music fans dwell, and 2. Game composers DO feel the impact of your illegal activities and your theory that game composers don't own parts of their own music is absolutely wrong. Forget music publishing for a second... do you know what the term "writers share" is or means? Do you know what "mechanicals" are? Look them up and get back to me. I could continue to give you many other composer examples but you'll just counter with... Oh, but he's different because he is such a nice person, has his own studio and isn't the majority.

I've lived the game audio business for the last 21+ years and I proudly head up the biggest non-profit game audio organization in the world (which has over 2,500 members from around the world), so sorry if I come off a bit harsh and pithy, but I hope you can understand that it's a little bit amusing to me when my experience, knowledge and data is called into question every other post as if I'm guessing or have no idea what I'm talking about.

Isn't the internet fun?



Well fellas, that about does it for me this round, it's going to be Monday again soon and I'll need to go back into the real world. Now that I'm off tour for the next couple of weeks I'll try to make it back next weekend to see what trouble I can get myself into.

Until then... Rock On.



Tommy

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Teioh -1, Tommy +10

Here is a visual reference.


Good luck with the tour. I saw you back last year in Philly. You guys put on a good show.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

One interesting notion I have formed over these 5 years is that people who happily accuse others of pirating music are often not the constant buyers themselves, but instead, just the type of elitist who wants to feel superior and posts something smart and witty. They aren't concerned about the industry at all, but make it the reason for the accusation anyway. It's very easy to say "Pirating is an evil" because it's (at least partially) right, but if you officially start to purchase soundtracks, you will realize it's a bit hard to invest money in something you're not sure worth $$$, unless you're a blind collector or the son of Bill Gates. I even suspect part of why there is a conflict is because some people against pirating have never purchased soundtracks.

I don't intend to claim pirating can be justified, in the first place. Also, right-holders or artists themselves like Tommy are absolutely right to say we shouldn't pirate music. Still, there is a reason why I keep downloading music. If this is ever called a guilty, I'll atone for this by purchasing soundtracks out of what I downloaded and liked. That may not be the biggest compensation, but is surely much more constructive than insulting others for pirating.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Yup. We're done here. The initial problem has been resolved and Tommy has conceded that he's finished, so I think that's about it. I'm honestly surprised I left this train wreck going as long as it has, what with all the hilarious Basil-dupe hypocrisy and several of the GGMD posters coming out to prove themselves the biggest group of idiots this side of Simply Majestic and Kornbix. If you feel the topic of VGM piracy needs to be continued feel free to make a thread proper (don't do this).

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