Why not legalize prostitution?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Yeah, and what difference does that statement make? Government has the real choice, I am just telling you what I think is best. Again, that does not mean I am comparing myself to the US Government, your original complaint.

The problem is that you believe that you and people like yourself have the authority to tell women what they're allowed to do. What everyone keeps telling you and you still seem to fail to understand is that this makes you a miserable misogynist jackbastard, regardless of your intent. Women, or anyone for that matter, do not need your (or the government's) blessing to act. The fact that you and the government share this bizarre superiority complex is not what is being complained about, though congratulations for recognizing the similarity, if not comprehending the inherent stupidity of your position.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Then let's go through this example: would you mind me fucking your mom for $10,000? And have absolutely no qualms? You are a being of pure reason, afterall, and you know that the money is more real than nut I'd bust on her face or what that would mean to you or her.

"How would you like if it I fucked your mom"? You're a real class act, Tamburlaine. But I tell you what, put the money in my hand and I'll escort you to the cemetery straightaway. Hell, I'll even give you the shovel.

However, if my mother weren't both three years dead and morbidly obese in the bargain, whatever acts you might like to pay her for would be entirely between the two of you. It's none of my business how anyone makes their money — even my family, provided it impacts me in no material way.

You know what, I've got a cousin who's kind of slutty, maybe we can compromise here.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Yeah, and what difference does that statement make? Government has the real choice, I am just telling you what I think is best. Again, that does not mean I am comparing myself to the US Government, your original complaint.

You understand that the US Government doesn't disallow anyone to do anything. They allocate punishment to dissuade people from doing certain things. This is a fundamental difference compared to what you think is best, which is a deeply paternalistic and frankly unrealistic opinion.

Also I like how

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Because I think the world is an extremely fucked up place and it would be better if we confronted some of these problems head-on instead of lived as if it's none of our business.

I like how a white man in America is telling marginalized groups that they must use their career choices in a crusade you've defined for them, and they have to rage against the Man without taking advantage of the Man or doing anything else you feel is socially inappropriate.

For laughs, what's your job?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I've seen analogy after analogy after analogy, and frankly those don't serve to strengthen the argument for prostitution. If you'd like I'll come up with my own analogies. They might be moderately clever but do nothing to clarify the issue because prostitution bears little similarities to other professions no matter how much anyone wishes it to be otherwise.

Prostitution is like being a mortician

• Cannot discuss or let young children see people doing their work
  Can't even do your work openly in public. Closed doors are a must.
  Good advice to skip going to your child's "bring-your-parent-to-school" day
  You may have to work closely and touch unattractive people
  Children under the age of 18 should not be allowed in this field of work

Okay, that's not even remotely as clever as I had hoped. But it's an analogy much like the ones that have been thrown at me which is to say it is pretty lame support for my argument. Why? BECAUSE BEING A MORTICIAN AND A PROSTITUTE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. (Those crazy pills have not worn off yet). Just like a prostitute is different than a clerk, a boxer, a store manager, or a guy telling other people how to grow marijuana. On the other hand, now I want to outlaw morticians.

Pang, I really don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. Especially with such an inaccurate portrayal of my views. Maybe you know people like that, but your presume way too much about me.

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Sex makes everything different. Not always worse, certainly not always better, but different and profoundly so.

is a far cry from

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perception of sex as some kind of witchcraft that corrupts everything it touches is hard to rationalize

I don't have a major problem if sex is a very casual "no-big-deal" kind of thing for adults. But the idea that sex is just "nerve endings and lube" is an absurd simplification of an act that ties intense physical, mental, and emotional aspects together in a unique fashion. Perhaps I'm taking your little quip too seriously, but you are arguing that sex does NOT change things. So I'm not sure how else to react. Let's say a little girl asks her father about becoming a prostitute. The father would be a complete arse if he told her that it was just like being a boxer. Why? Because the sexual nature of being a prostitute changes the issue. Those differences need to be addressed. To explain it as just "nerve endings and lube" is inadequate and irresponsible.

I was speaking idiomatically.

"SEX MAKES EVERYTHING DIFFERENT"

"How? Explain why sex makes everything different."

"IT JUST DOES".

How is that different from "it's magic"?

I am really, really curious about your logic here and I'm trying to figure out whether you're 13 years old and helplessly naive or 65 years old and desperately bitter.

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if sex is a very casual "no-big-deal" kind of thing for adults

For adults that willingly choose to have sex with people with whom they have no emotional ties, yes. It is. Why is this so complicated for you? It's a service that you provide, dispassionately, with the use of your body. Like a masseuse (There's a reason these two professions tend into wink-nudge overlap). If you're doing something on a professional basis, for money, it stops being intensely emotional about an hour into your first day on the job. If you want to use morticians as an example

Riding a rollercoaster can be very exhilirating, yes. It can be a very enthralling experience that you remember for weeks, if not years. But if you were being paid to ride rollercoasters every day, you'd get jaded about it in a goddamn hurry, don't you think?

However, here are some 'spec knucks on outlawing morticians. The funeral industry is a massive scam.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Pineapple.

I would like to know.

What makes selling sex any different than anything else.

Really. I would like a nice, concise rationalization as to why selling sex is taboo for everyone - not just yourself.

And "just 'cause it's sex" doesn't count as a rationalization.

How ya doing, buddy?

Ugh, I just deleted one of my multiparagraph rants. (...and there was much rejoicing...) I think some of you are expecting something profoundly insightful or stupid when I mentioned that "sex changes everything". I think I explained myself already within the context I established. Oh well, here's attempt #2...

Take any job other than a prostitute. Now make regular sexual activity with clients a part of that job. To me that changes everything about the job (which was the point I failed to make apparently). Boom. Simple. Nothing ground breaking or amazing. Just the obvious.

Here's a play I wrote:
"Hello boss, you wanted to see me?"
"Hey KillerPineapple, you need to start having sex with strangers as part of your job if you want to get paid."
"But that changes everything."
"How?"
"IT JUST DOES!"
"I don't get it. Explain."
"Um...It's magic?"
"How old are you KillerPineapple?"
"Sex changes the job, can't you see that?"
"Oh stop putting it up on a pedestal."
"Can't I just continue selling cheaply made household products?"
"You're selling your body for sex now. How is that any different?"
"Well, when you put it like that- I guess there really is no difference."
"Great! I thought you were one of those bible-told-me-so nuts."
"You don't understand the concept of sarcasm, do you?"
"Get the *%#$ out of my bedroom."
"This is an office."

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

A little nonsensical dialogue you put together doesn't qualify as a rationalization, pineapple.

Please, try to make a coherent argument. You're making no sense. Why do you feel that sex is magic?

Once again, please explain what is so frightening about intercourse to you that you think there should be no price tag on it.

I'm also really fucking curious as to why you and so many other people think you can put a price tag on OTHER peoples' genitals, but I fear that trying to discuss this with you would cause your tiny brain to implode.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Yes, adding prostitution to office work would, in fact, change everything about office work.

Adding office work to prositution would also change everything about prostitution.

Adding prostitution to prostitution, however, does not cause any great waves.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Why are people who have never had sex arguing about the legality of paying for it? Obviously, I'm not talking to Devo. Bitch is a ho.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Please, try to make a coherent argument. You're making no sense. Why do you feel that sex is magic?

It is not that it is magic, but that it is a very personal experience. Some of you guys have been arguing that it is just a physical encounter with no strings attached, and I fully believe it CAN be that, but it certainly isn't always. Many rape victims take a life-time to overcome what can be chalked up to a few moments of sexual intercourse. Sure, that isn't MAGICAL, but it sure is powerful, more than "just nerve endings and lube" like Pang puts it.

I am all for prostitution in which women have a legitimate choice. As it is in today's society, I feel that many of the women that would resort to it would do so because they have had no other opportunities. I take that to be coercion; Sure, these women wouldn't be RAPED in every sense of the word, but if prostitution is the only profession they can resort to in order to survive you can't really think that they are doing it out of a complete free choice. That is like saying that I give my money willingly when I have a gun pointed to my head.

If our government can spend a trillion dollars on the Iraq war, 3 trillion bailing out banks, and another trillion in medicare, then why can it not give better opportunities to these women? Now, once those opportunities are in place, the women can become prostitutes and do whatever they want. I just think that there wouldn't be as many.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I can't speak for anyone else here obviously but I am entirely capable of having a shag without experiencing some kind of profound emotional moment. Like Pang said if you do anything enough it becomes humdrum and banal.

I would have thought that taking a gun and shooting someone with it would probably be a pretty fucking emotional experience. If someone stuck a gun in my hand and forced me to shoot someone, it'd probably leave me more than a little traumatised. Despite the obvious horrors of killing other people, the government not only allows such a thing but in fact positively encourages it with their army recruitment ads.

When you join the army, you've got to accept that at some point there's a pretty good chance you're going to be expected to shoot someone. You get training to deal with it and one would imagine that after a couple of tours of the 'Ghan, killing people becomes a rather less emotionally involving act. You're in danger of getting killed every minute of every day and being asked to perform possibly the most morally reprehensible act there is on a daily basis. And you know what, the vast majority of people who join the army come from a poor background. You don't get many lawyers in the army, why is that do you think?

If it's ok for the government to ask people to join the army, put themselves in mortal danger and shoot people dead, why is it so bad for other people to be allowed to have sex for money? I'd suggest that someone working as a prostitute for a year would probably have less mental scars than someone doing the same stint in the army and be a lot more likely to be alive at the end of it.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Many rape victims take a life-time to overcome what can be chalked up to a few moments of sexual intercourse.

And I believe that there are some women out there, that after having been raped, deep down enjoyed the experience. Not because they are a bad person, but because EVERY GOD DAMN PERSON IN THIS WORLD IS DIFFERENT.

Let me say that again.

Every god damn person in this world is different.

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I am all for prostitution in which women have a legitimate choice. As it is in today's society, I feel that many of the women that would resort to it would do so because they have had no other opportunities. I take that to be coercion; Sure, these women wouldn't be RAPED in every sense of the word, but if prostitution is the only profession they can resort to in order to survive you can't really think that they are doing it out of a complete free choice. That is like saying that I give my money willingly when I have a gun pointed to my head.

I thought I told you to grow up and get out of my forums. Do you have ANY idea how many people right now, in this country, are working jobs that they fucking HATE and would love to be doing something they love? I got lucky, after about...six years of working, I finally found a decent job that I enjoy doing. I was unable to get into college because my single mother making 25k a year apparently was TOO MUCH CASH for any financial support.

What you are proposing is that if people were laid off from their jobs, or, that their towns economy is so bad, that you would rather wait and see for the government to do something about it that didn't involve legalizing prostitution. Which in turn, leads me to believe that you would rather see people suffer with no income coming into their home instead of having a safe job where all they have to do is spread their legs.

Can you understand why some people may think you're a heartless bastard? Oh and for the record, there's a pretty decent possibility that I'd never even pay for a prostitute...hell I've only been to a strip club once in my life, and I'm 24 years old. Doesn't mean I don't like the idea of strip clubs, I just never have the urge to go.

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If our government can spend a trillion dollars on the Iraq war, 3 trillion bailing out banks, and another trillion in medicare, then why can it not give better opportunities to these women? Now, once those opportunities are in place, the women can become prostitutes and do whatever they want. I just think that there wouldn't be as many.

Okay, taking this and what you said above that a prostitute would be a 'gun against the head' profession. How do you feel about strippers? In essence they take the same risks as if a legal prostitute would, perhaps even moreso because it's just one big cocktease. A stripper is just another job, same as a waitress, same as a cashier, and if you've never gotten a lap dance, well, those are pretty god damn personal experiences as well. Hell I still remember my first one, was like losing my virginity...cept when I lost my virginity the bitch was disappointing -_-.

Honestly, this conversation has been geared towards women, but men can be prostitutes just as much. This whole argument you have boils down to 'we have to keep the women safe, we have to give them better opportunities, we have to do this we have to do that'. Stop watching the god damn Lifetime channel and grow up. Women don't want YOU to tell them what to do, and as much as this is going to PAIN you to hear, they certainly don't want you deciding what is a good job, and what is a bad job.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

It is not that it is magic, but that it is a very personal experience.

For you, maybe. Why do you think you have the right to define this for everyone?

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Some of you guys have been arguing that it is just a physical encounter with no strings attached, and I fully believe it CAN be that, but it certainly isn't always. Many rape victims take a life-time to overcome what can be chalked up to a few moments of sexual intercourse. Sure, that isn't MAGICAL, but it sure is powerful, more than "just nerve endings and lube" like Pang puts it.

Of course you're going to bring rape into this! It's what you people DO. Even though it has nothing to do with consensual sex between two adults.

Look. No one is telling you to fuck without feeling anything. That's not anyone's position to define for you. At the same time, you have no position to tell others what they can and cannot do with their own genitals between consenting adults.

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I am all for prostitution in which women have a legitimate choice. As it is in today's society, I feel that many of the women that would resort to it would do so because they have had no other opportunities.

Ahahahhaa, man. You know, a lot of people work at Walmart because they have no other opportunities. Walmart has really POOR employment practices. In fact, a LOT of companies have very poor employment practices. Why are you picking prostitution as the arguably exploitative employment opportunity alone, here? Because it involves tits and vag, and not the IRS or payroll? What defines your retarded arguments, exactly?

Women AND men (did you forget that men whore themselves out, too??) have choices.

In a world where prostitution is LEGAL, they have even more choice and more protection than they do in the world YOU seem to want for them.

Are you really this dense.

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If our government can spend a trillion dollars on the Iraq war, 3 trillion bailing out banks, and another trillion in medicare, then why can it not give better opportunities to these women? Now, once those opportunities are in place, the women can become prostitutes and do whatever they want. I just think that there wouldn't be as many.

Wait.

So you think -BY DEFAULT- if a woman should want to be a prostitute, she doesn't know any better and has no other choices in life?

You're an idiot. Do you KNOW any women? At all?

FELIPE NO

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So you think -BY DEFAULT- if a woman should want to be a prostitute, she doesn't know any better and has no other choices in life?

No. I do think that giving prostitutes other opportunities would drastically decrease the number of prostitutes because prostitution is (probably) tough, gruesome, degrading work. Maybe it is pure glamor though.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

No. I do think that giving prostitutes other opportunities would drastically decrease the number of prostitutes because prostitution is (probably) tough, gruesome, degrading work. Maybe it is pure glamor though.

So how are you concluding this, exactly?

Just 'cause?

I mean, that seems to be the argument here on a whole.

"Why do you think this? Can you rationalize it?"
"Just because, jeez"
"wow, okay."

I really do want you to justify "tough, gruesome, and degrading."

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

No. I do think that giving prostitutes other opportunities would drastically decrease the number of prostitutes because prostitution is (probably) tough, gruesome, degrading work. Maybe it is pure glamor though.

Seriously, as Sass said above about wal-mart, I OUTLINED two pages back of my experiences at that place, what was expected of me, and how I was thanked for it when I wanted to move up in the company to make a measily 9 DOLLARS A FUCKING HOUR.

The work was tough, TVs fell on people's heads because the management decided "OH HAY THIS WILL WORK BETTER IF THE 42 INCH PLASMA'S ARE PUT UP ON THE HIGHEST BACK ROOM SHELVING"

Cleaning up kid vomit, cleaning up diaharea because someone coudnl't make it to the bathroom in time, and on the rare occassion having to report to managagement that there is a transvestite walking around the clothing department in a bra and panties is gruesome work.

Degrading? How about you have some 400lb fat peice of shit calling you nothing but a worthless, good for nothing cock sucker because you don't have a movie in he wants to see and you can't pop him in his fucking jaw like he deserves? Go fuck yourself Tambur. Go fuck yourself with a rusty god damn saw blade.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

No. I do think that giving prostitutes other opportunities would drastically decrease the number of prostitutes because prostitution is (probably) tough, gruesome, degrading work. Maybe it is pure glamor though.

What "other opportunities" could be offered that would pay a few hundred dollars an hour?

I am not going to say I am wise in what the majority of prostitutes feel about their job, but I do know one and she has changed my view that prostitutes are somehow victims. The woman I know was never sexually abused, and comes from a home where the parents have been married for 30+ years. From what she has said to me, I get the impression she likes the power and control she has over the men in that they want her enough to pay her $300+ an hour. She has also told me that while some of the men she sees are not attractive, she does see men that are not only attractive, but damn good in bed and actually make the effort to please her as well as themselves.

This woman also has a screening process of some sort and doesn't see just anyone. She has never been hurt in any way by a client that wasn't consensual.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Grail, I understand that working at Walmart sucks, but I don't think it is as bad as being a prostitute most of the time.

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In a world where prostitution is LEGAL, they have even more choice and more protection than they do in the world YOU seem to want for them.

Look, I have already said that I want prostitution to be legal. I well conceive of some people who even enjoy being prostitutes, although I think that that is probably a minority.

When prostitution is legalized, it would be good if efforts were put in place to give women in urban and rural areas opportunities other than prostitution. I do have a problem with it becoming the profession that impoverished people default into. A young girl or boy in a rural area may only have prostitution as viable work in order to survive. That seems to be exploitative to a cruel degree.

Do you disagree with that?

As to whether it would be a bad job if it were legal, who can tell for sure? Like we have already agree, there are people for everything. The point is, we have no data and are basically discussing opinions. As for me, I think it would probably be terrible, but I have worked on a Rape/Sexual Assault line and dealt with a lot of impoverished women who have had to resort to it. I can see that you prefer keeping it a woman's choice. All I hold is that this choice probably wouldn't be so free.

Originally Posted by Midna

What "other opportunities" could be offered that would pay a few hundred dollars an hour?

I am not going to say I am wise in what the majority of prostitutes feel about their job, but I do know one and she has changed my view that prostitutes are somehow victims. The woman I know was never sexually abused, and comes from a home where the parents have been married for 30+ years. From what she has said to me, I get the impression she likes the power and control she has over the men in that they want her enough to pay her $300+ an hour. She has also told me that while some of the men she sees are not attractive, she does see men that are not only attractive, but damn good in bed and actually make the effort to please her as well as themselves.

This woman also has a screening process of some sort and doesn't see just anyone. She has never been hurt in any way by a client that wasn't consensual.

I am sure lots of women like that exist. But I still contend that the majority is far from that. I don't really think that's such a controversial statement.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

You didn't answer my question.

How ya doing, buddy?

None. I don't think that is a huge problem, though. Most people don't need those types of wages.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

But if someone wants those wages, what's to stop them from becoming a prostitute even after all of those government opportunities you want to happen suddenly appear?

FELIPE NO

Nothing. I have said that I am perfectly fine with legal prostitution, as long is it is not the profession people default into.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Look, I have already said that I want prostitution to be legal. I well conceive of some people who even enjoy being prostitutes, although I think that that is probably a minority.

See, Tamburlaine, I think that whenever you hear the word prostitute, you think of the street-walking, coke addict, abused women that you solicit on a Saturday night downtown who ARE in fact taken advantage of by not only their johns, but by the police.

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When prostitution is legalized, it would be good if efforts were put in place to give women in urban and rural areas opportunities other than prostitution. I do have a problem with it becoming the profession that impoverished people default into. A young girl or boy in a rural area may only have prostitution as viable work in order to survive. That seems to be exploitative to a cruel degree.

Do you disagree with that?

Yes, very much.

There are women -and I say this from personal experience- who would be HAPPY to chose prostitution if only it was legal. Women who are NOT impoverished and/or abused. They're very intelligent women who think that it's a fair way to make money. I know at least 2 with whom I've had conversations about it, and they have made it very clear that if it was legal and if they were protected by law and were permitted to work in a legal establishment of their choosing (like any other job), they would drop what they're doing and become a prostitute right away. It's the oldest (and one of the most lucrative) jobs in the history of man - job security is almost guaranteed provided you're good at what you do (LIKE IN ANY OTHER JOB)

Again, you're thinking of the MINORITY of prostitutes who actually walk the street and get the shit beaten out of them because they have to feed their kids. Those women need options, yes. But then, so do a lot of people who aren't associated with prostitution. So let's not just assume that ONLY STREET-WALKING HOES need "options."

I assure you, they are NOT the majority. Do some research. The majority of the prostitutes out there are not suffering.

So before you start saying "prostitutes have no options," do some fucking homework.

Of course, not all women think prostitution would work for them. And that's totally cool. I don't think being an accountant would work for me, SO I DON'T FUCKING DO IT. See how that works. I don't outlaw accounting because I think it's a tough, gruesome, degrading job.

I don't actually have anything against accounting or accountants. ;_;

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I don't think you understand what I mean by options. But I am gonna let it go because we aren't getting anywhere and not listening to one another.

If you care however, you should watch this video:

YouTube - Noam Chomsky - Noam vs. Michel Foucault (Eng. subs)

There's nowhere I can't reach.