Why not legalize prostitution?

Hey Grail, I think you understand a lot of my rantings pretty well, I think you're just flabbergasted that anyone actually thinks the way I do.

You make a great point in pointing out that the system is apparently working in Amsterdam when they finally start shutting down the places that need to be shut down. I'd be happier if the system worked faster though. The legality of prostitution is what caused the industry to grow so big that it couldn't be effectively policed. Lives have been ruined and there is no guarantee that 1. All sex workers are being treated well now and 2. It won't happen again. As you mentioned, the red light district has been around for YEARS and during many of those years people ignored the laws and still exploited sex workers in heinous ways. Those rules and regulations are a good thing, but they aren't 100% enforced. Not even close as it turns out. If there wasn't any prostitution to begin with it wouldn't be a problem. Both of us are naive though; me for hoping that prostitution can be eliminated altogether, and you for thinking that laws will guarantee equal and satisfactory protection for every sex worker. Whether it is deserved or not, there is an unsavory element attached to the sex industry that affects how it is run.

My argument about how prostitution affects uninvolved people was SUPPOSED to be weak. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Read again and you'll (hopefully) see I was actually agreeing with YouMad that prostitution does NOT infringe on other people's rights. At the same time I still defend my position to endorse moral legislation. Poorly stated and confusing so you have my apologies. (See, I apologized, sorta) You can disagree with my 'perception' of moral legislation (i.e. Ponzi, etc.) but the real question is whether or not ANY moral legislation is appropriate. I say "yes", many others here have stated "no".

I'm sorry, but with regards to disease I can't see much of a comparison between prostitutes and...well, any other industry. Despite my strong disagreement, my stance against prostitution is not really based on that. I'm a more of a moral elitist than a concerned medical practitioner.

I've heard the argument about "I don't want my daughter involved, but let's make it safe for other people's daughters". By and large, nobody likes prostitution. Everyone wants to keep the ones they love away from it. In this particular case I understand, but strongly disagree, with the notion of legalizing something bad just so those poor souls who do partake in it can be safer. I'd much rather keep anyone from doing it in the first place. I'm aware that such a goal is unrealistic, but it's still worth the fight in order to reduce the number of people involved. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but at the same time I don't think anyone can conclusively state that myself and others are clearly in the wrong.

I'm not morally opposed to video games like I am to prostitution. I believe when you play games the way they are intended to be used it's a benign diversion. But as you mentioned, even something like video games can be abused to a point where it is sad, disgusting, and reprehensible. By contrast, prostitution (in my eyes at least) is sad, disgusting, and reprehensible right from the start.

The religious opposition to prostitution is obvious. But as mentioned, opposition also comes from a huge yet separate population of diverse thinkers. It is unfair to categorize anyone as "endorsing unsafe working conditions" or "against privacy rights". Usually it's people like me that make irresponsible broad sweeping statements like... "You oppose prostitution? Oh, so you WANT sex workers to be exploited, diseased, and physically harmed?" First of all, I don't want there to be ANY sex workers. Second, it should be obvious at this point that the issue is far more complicated than that.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by a lurker

Wow. This is an extremely ignorant thing to say! I wonder if you think America (or at least the liberal parts) isn't racist anymore.

I think most of America is very racist. Not even a Harvard Professor in a beautiful historic Cambridge home is safe from American Racism.

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Just for the record most if not all occupational structures within our society have been cemented by men.

Yes, but not all of them require becoming a prostitute to lead a finnancially stable life. THAT is objectification; that is what I am concerned with. But you are funny though, real funny. You got internet humor down, I am real impressed.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Yes, but not all of them require becoming a prostitute to lead a finnancially stable life.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I guess you do it pro bono. I kind of admire your selflessness. The rest of us are mostly whores, though. We sell ourselves and our talents for the petty reward of filthy lucre. How foul it is that society has driven us to this!

There is no practical distinction between "I work as a coal miner because it's the best job available to me" and "I work at a brothel because it's the best job available to me". Coal mining, like sex work, can be an immensely dangerous job if the proper precautions are not taken, but does anyone propose it should be illegal to work as a coal miner? Of course not! Instead, laws are put into place to make coal-mining a safer profession.

The arguments in play here seem to revolve entirely around the notion that using one's body to make a living abruptly becomes implicitly monstrous the moments one drops one's drawers. Why? What is so implicitly amoral about the vagina or the penis relatively to the arms or the back? Yes, fucking for a living can give you diseases if you don't take precautions. Are we to outlaw DOCTORS on this basis? After all, they touch sick people every day! HOW DANGEROUS!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Why do you think that women in respectable, well-paying jobs aren't in that list?

I don't see a lot of male ex-lawyers or corporate CEOs becoming strippers or prostitutes either. Maybe you're on to something!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

I think most of America is very racist. Not even a Harvard Professor in a beautiful historic Cambridge home is safe from American Racism.

Then I wonder why black people use racist systems that marginalize them in the first place. Isn't it better for them to not work within the power structure that whites have made for them? They are only exacerbating the problem with racism.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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You think in this day and age, in America of all places that a prostitute is merely some dumb broad down on her luck with no other options in life?

I think I spotted the winner of the misogynist award.

Certainly not all prostitutes are that, but I think a great deal of them are. the article I posted (the first of any sort of EVIDENCE that has been brought up between the both of us) cites that virtually all prostitutes in a state in which the practice is legal 1) used to be hobos or in low-paying jobs 2) mostly fuck TRUCKERS. Come on man! You know people wouldn't go with TRUCKERS for fun.

What I mean by being "down on their luck" is more than just being out of a job. There are material, political, and economic reasons for the way modern society is structured. And sometimes certain groups get the short end of the stick. There is a reason why African Americans make up a disproportionate amount of the prison population, and why women in certain urban areas are more likely to become prostitutes. Now, the way to solve these problems is not to KILL the blacks in jail or allow the women to become prostitutes, but to focus on better education, better jobs, and a reformulation of certain aspects of American society.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Now, the way to solve these problems is not to KILL the blacks in jail or allow the women to become prostitutes,

Do you know why she thinks you're a misogynist?

It's because you're talking about allowing grown-ass women to perform a profession.

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Yeah, but those are massive societal changes. Changes we probably will never see.

If prostitution were legal, imagine all the women who would be safer and probably more able to take themselves and their kids to a better part of town, or at the very least, a slightly better position in life. Their kids could possibly have the opportunities their parents did not, and in turn, begin to set in motion those very changes you spoke of.

That shit will not happen with a job at McDonald's.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Then I wonder why black people use racist systems that marginalize them in the first place. Isn't it better for them to not work within the power structure that whites have made for them? They are only exacerbating the problem with racism.

Well, what some of the African Americans I know do is work within the system to highlight its racist aspects and to speak against it because it is what allows them to reach the most people. Black academics or socially-conscious rappers are great examples.

It is quite a nuanced position, though, and you are on to something by pointing out that it feeds off of the problem it is trying to solve.

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I don't know what you do for a living, but I guess you do it pro bono. I kind of admire your selflessness. The rest of us are mostly whores, though. We sell ourselves and our talents for the petty reward of filthy lucre. How foul it is that society has driven us to this!

There is no practical distinction between "I work as a coal miner because it's the best job available to me" and "I work at a brothel because it's the best job available to me". Coal mining, like sex work, can be an immensely dangerous job if the proper precautions are not taken, but does anyone propose it should be illegal to work as a coal miner? Of course not! Instead, laws are put into place to make coal-mining a safer profession.

The arguments in play here seem to revolve entirely around the notion that using one's body to make a living abruptly becomes implicitly monstrous the moments one drops one's drawers. Why? What is so implicitly amoral about the vagina or the penis relatively to the arms or the back? Yes, fucking for a living can give you diseases if you don't take precautions. Are we to outlaw DOCTORS on this basis? After all, they touch sick people every day! HOW DANGEROUS!

Pang, I agree with you completely. I, however, have a problem with ALL exploitative careers. I should hope that in the future both coal mining, industry work, and prostitution can be left behind.

I do think, on the other hand, that being a prostitute may subject someone to particular and unique psychological stresses that other professions can't touch. But maybe not.

Originally Posted by a lurker

Do you know why she thinks you're a misogynist?

It's because you're talking about allowing grown-ass women to perform a profession.

Alright, then I am a misogynist. Will you agree with me, then, that because the business community has a very limited number of female, black, or minority CEOs it is racist, misogynist, and hateful?

It is not I who is doing the allowing, but the US Government, which, by the way, allows GROWN ASS PEOPLE to do or not things/professions all the time.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Well, what some of the African Americans I know do is work within the system to highlight its racist aspects and to speak against it because it is what allows them to reach the most people. Black academics or socially-conscious rappers are great examples.

It is quite a nuanced position, though, and you are on to something by pointing out that it feeds off of the problem it is trying to solve.

Am I also onto something by saying a nigga gotta eat?

Cuz that was what I was aiming for

as an aside, do you think prostitution is the only (or even the most dangerous) way the patriarchy marginalizes women

I would say that white color professions over-represented by men is far worse tbh but I'll be damned if I can think of a way to change that by not participating

you idiot

I do not allow you to continue this charade of intelligence. Rip off your mask and post as you truly are, trainable.

Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

It is not I who is doing the allowing, but the US Government, which, by the way, allows GROWN ASS PEOPLE to do or not things/professions all the time.

how does it not allow grown-ass adults to do things

I mean I googled crime statistics right now but they look pretty high so.........................

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I have no idea what the fuck you are saying, so I will just stop replying.

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Yeah, but those are massive societal changes. Changes we probably will never see.

If prostitution were legal, imagine all the women who would be safer and probably more able to take themselves and their kids to a better part of town, or at the very least, a slightly better position in life. Their kids could possibly have the opportunities their parents did not, and in turn, begin to set in motion those very changes you spoke of.

That shit will not happen with a job at McDonald's.

I see what you are saying, and there is some merit to it. I think, however, that prostitution may be a little more hurtful to those in it than other careers. Do you think it would be a better alternative if women could lift themselves out of poverty without becoming prostitutes?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Why do you think it is the requirement of a person in a marginalized demographic to heroically rise up and throw off the shackles of their oppression when all they want is to pay their bills and raise their family like a normal fucking person?

why is it a requirement of women of little means to be martyrs to a battle you imposed on them?

And also why on earth are you comparing yourself to the US Government?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

It is not I who is doing the allowing, but the US Government, which, by the way, allows GROWN ASS PEOPLE to do or not things/professions all the time.

A: The federal government doesn't disallow prostitution AFAIK. There are laws governing interstate travel or immigration for the purpose of prostitution, but I'm pretty sure the FBI doesn't give a tin shit if you invite some dude into your house and charge him $100 when he leaves. Local authorities will be very interested, but not the Fed.

B: Name any other victimless profession that is broadly outlawed in the majority of the USA (and no, doing a job that may subject you to certain stresses does not make you a victim).

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Pang, I agree with you completely. I, however, have a problem with ALL exploitative careers. I should hope that in the future both coal mining, industry work, and prostitution can be left behind.

Killer Pineapple got away with this due to the fact that he can actually NOT make himself look like a complete idiot.

Do you know that this god damn country was FOUNDED on fucking jobs like coal mining, industry work and other shit like that? EVERY GOD DAMN JOB in this fucking world is exploitative of their workers. It doesn't matter what the fuck it is.

Work is supposed to be that, WORK. Many, many people have died on the job for various reasons. You keep ignoring the fact that prostitution is just like EVERY OTHER SINGLE JOB IN EXISTENCE. People EXPLOIT prostitutes more because women who work the street regardless of choice, or being forced into it, because it's a lose lose situation for them right now. They can't go to the cops because they will be arrested for prostitution, and if they say they don't want to fucking do it, they get beat or worse the majority of the time.

You can't just close your fucking eyes and pretend that if prostitutes don't exist that the problem will fix itself. You want prostitution to go bye bye? That's perfectly fine and fucking dandy, but how about until it somehow magically disappears, you show a little bit of compassion and WANT them to be in a safer environment instead of looking down at them like they are the lowest rung of scum on societies ladder, you fucking prick.

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I do think, on the other hand, that being a prostitute may subject someone to particular and unique psychological stresses that other professions can't touch. But maybe not.

You are a fucking child. Get the fuck off these forums right now. HIGH SCHOOL produces fucking just as many unique psychological stresses. If a fucking woman (or man) decides that she wants to make money by spreading her legs, and it turns out that she doesn't like it come a month or two into the position, if it is legalized, she can fucking hand in her TWO WEEK NOTICE. That is not how it works right now. She complains, she gets bitch slapped for it.

It's often I find those that 'take the moral high ground' on discussions like these, tend to be the ones that spit on human rights the most. It's sickening.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by a lurker

Why do you think it is the requirement of a person in a marginalized demographic to heroically rise up and throw off the shackles of their oppression when all they want is to pay their bills and raise their family like a normal fucking person?

Because I think the world is an extremely fucked up place and it would be better if we confronted some of these problems head-on instead of lived as if it's none of our business.

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why is it a requirement of women of little means to be martyrs to a battle you imposed on them?

When did I say that I required anyone to do what I say? All I have been saying is that I wish people would have better opportunities so that would not have to resort to what I consider extreme degradation. Maybe it is not as bad as I paint it. In the end, it does not matter, it is not up to me to decide, is it?

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And also why on earth are you comparing yourself to the US Government?

Where did I say I am like the US Government? All I said is ultimately the entity that allows or disallows prostitution is government, and not me. What I think or care about doesn't really matter in this context.

Maybe prostitution ought to be legal, but that means jackshit. The government is the only entity that can do anything about it.

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Do you know that this god damn country was FOUNDED on fucking jobs like coal mining, industry work and other shit like that? EVERY GOD DAMN JOB in this fucking world is exploitative of their workers. It doesn't matter what the fuck it is.

The fact that this country was founded on those jobs doesn't make them any better. And you got my point exactly! All jobs are more or less exploitative. Shouldn't we do something to change that?

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It's often I find those that 'take the moral high ground' on discussions like these, tend to be the ones that spit on human rights the most. It's sickening.

I understand that is cool or whatever to get angry, cynical, and swear out the ass on the internet, but all I have been saying is that I wish people would have other opportunities before becoming prostitutes.

IF people had good economic opportunities and THEN became prostitutes, then it would be a matter of choice. But most of the time that is not the case.

But, I will say it again, I am all for LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION, as long as people are given a fair chance at leading their lives a different way first.

I find it interesting that you find illegal prostitution a more serious human rights violation than women being forced to have sex to survive.

I see where you are coming from though; and I agree that perhaps prostitute's lives would be better as it is with the implementation of certain laws. My point, however, is that sooner or later we will have to get down to the bottom to the bottom of the problem, and not just skim it with regulation.

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A: The federal government doesn't disallow prostitution AFAIK. There are laws governing interstate travel or immigration for the purpose of prostitution, but I'm pretty sure the FBI doesn't give a tin shit if you invite some dude into your house and charge him $100 when he leaves. Local authorities will be very interested, but not the Fed.

B: Name any other victimless profession that is broadly outlawed in the majority of the USA (and no, doing a job that may subject you to certain stresses does not make you a victim).

A: point taken.

B: I assume teaching people how to build dirty bombs, drugs, or other harmful substances would land people in jail if they did it out in the open. The information itself is not illegal, we all know that, but that does not mean that the US or state government would respect your right to disseminate it.

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Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

I assume teaching people how to build dirty bombs, drugs, or other harmful substances would land people in jail if they did it out in the open.

You assume it would be illegal to openly advise people on the practice of producing & using drugs? Why would you assume that?



What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Pot is legal in my state. And you only focused on a third of my post.

You know that pot is peanuts compared to some of the other shit the government is worrying about. Find me a printed magazine about making crack, dirty bombs, or how to fly planes into buildings and then we are talking.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Am I on crazy pills? Wait, don't answer that. Still, are we all supposed to believe that there's no significant difference between a prostitute and a coal miner? That the strife of a wal-mart cashier is identical to the strife of street walker? That using your arms or your mind for a career is in no way different than using your genitals?

I know I have a mild case of insanity, but I still can't wrap my brain around the idea that prostitution is just like any other job. Sex makes everything different. Not always worse, certainly not always better, but different and profoundly so.

It has been mentioned repeatedly that laws could be used to protect prostitutes if it was legalized. We kind of have laws to protect people right now. Those laws say, "Prostitution is bad, don't do it". We could legalize it and then trust its practitioners to be nice to their sex workers. But looking at areas where prostitution is legal indicates that the people in this industry are all too willing to bend the rules to suit their financial gain. Again, the sexual nature of the business makes a world of difference. Comparisons do not and should not apply.

Please, please, PLEASE stop assuming that those who oppose prostitution are pleased with how illegal sex workers are being exploited. That makes as little sense to us as it does to everyone else.

Victimless profession: Yeah, drug dealers I suppose. Whether or not you agree that is victimless won't change anyone's mind about prostitution. Apples and oranges.

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Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Sex makes everything different.

Why? Exactly what went wrong in your upbringing that you see sexual intercourse as some kind of magical transfigurating event? It's just nerve endings and lube, no particular witchcraft is involved. Your perception of sex as some kind of witchcraft that corrupts everything it touches is hard to rationalize on any level other than "because the Bible tells me so".

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Sex makes everything different. Not always worse, certainly not always better, but different and profoundly so.

I'll have to agree with Pang and ask why?

Let's play a little game of This and That. I'm going to take two physical and mentally straining professions and put them both together. Today our choices are Professional Boxers and Legalized Prostitution.

Boxing: Rough, physical sport that, when sanctioned with laws, are still quite physically harmful and can be mentally deteriorating.

Two men enter a ring, their goal is to knock the other man out, or win by a judges decision if both fighters never go down. They must vigorously train to keep their bodies in top notch shape, only to go out and get the snot beat out of them time and time again. They chose this as their life. They were not forced into doing so.

Mentally it can be straining to have to push your body that hard, never knowing if your next fight is going to be your last, and perhaps even IF you became a famous professional boxer, there is no guarantee that you'll lead a good life, and accidents always happen...you could take a punch and end up paralyzed from the neck down, or worse. There are NO guarantees...and all the while you are doing this, some fat ass boxing organizer, mobsters, and other walks of life are actually BETTING on you to win, and some are even betting against you to lose.

Now for Legalized Prostitution: A physical job that, even with laws that were in place, can be a physical and mentally straining job.

Despite the fact that, for the majority of the nights you are on your back, you still will have to cater to customers who may not be overall appealing to you. There are some risks that there are diseases involved, but that is a risk that, if prostitution was legalized, the person involved MADE CONSENSUALLY.

Every night a woman -could- have the lingering thought in her mind that the man that is paying her could be married...but other than that, she also has to contend with the fact that a lot of people that know her would either look down on her and judge her for what she does.

But, as you can see, both jobs have the employees putting their mind and body on the line. You say Prostitution can hurt people uninvolved? Well, look at people out there who have gambling problems...BOXING can hurt those uninvolved just as much.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

In the end, it does not matter, it is not up to me to decide, is it?

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Now, the way to solve these problems is not to KILL the blacks in jail or allow the women to become prostitutes,

who's deciding what now

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by a lurker

who's deciding what now

Yeah, and what difference does that statement make? Government has the real choice, I am just telling you what I think is best. Again, that does not mean I am comparing myself to the US Government, your original complaint.

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Why? Exactly what went wrong in your upbringing that you see sexual intercourse as some kind of magical transfigurating event? It's just nerve endings and lube, no particular witchcraft is involved. Your perception of sex as some kind of witchcraft that corrupts everything it touches is hard to rationalize on any level other than "because the Bible tells me so".

Then let's go through this example: would you mind me fucking your mom for $10,000? And have absolutely no qualms? You are a being of pure reason, afterall, and you know that the money is more real than nut I'd bust on her face or what that would mean to you or her.

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You whiteknights are all the same, you seem to genuinely want better treatment for women but there is always some inherent hypocrisy in your tirades. You've established that you want better quality of life for poor women and "opportunities" yet you don't think a woman has the right to choose what she can do with her own body.

Here is what you haven't understood: I don't have any misconceptions about choice being some sort of ultimate good. In fact, I believe some choices should be kept illegal.

I do think that prostitution could be a legitimate choice that a woman has, and I even think that government might allow that. However, I'd like government to use its power to lift people out of poverty rather than create more means for them to live in it. That's it.

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The mere fact that you can't handle the subject of prostitution without degrading the women involved or showing some fucking respect in some women's choices means you are unfit for this debate. You have a moral problem with prostitution that you need resolved. Come back to me when you give me some real adverse effects of making prostitution legal instead of : EWWW TRUCKERS.

Let's get this straight: allowing women to become prostitutes is fine. But trying to protect them from being sexually exploited degrades them. Right.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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However, I'd like government to use its power to lift people out of poverty rather than create more means for them to live in it.

What if prostitution gets them out/keeps them out of poverty?

FELIPE NO

I'd like a way that is less degrading. I know some people here don't think it is degrading, but I don't think that is how the vast majority of the country feels.

Also, RR, the study I quoted today says that in Nevada most women only stay in the business for 6 months, many quit within one. And that is from a place with legal, controlled prostitution.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Most people work at McDonald's for less than six months, should we shut them down? I imagine a number of people going into prostitution have some sort of glamorized version going on in their head where they just get to go WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO all day, but then find out it is really is a form of work.

Heck, one of my good friends in undergrad was a stripper. I'm sure pretty much everyone out there considers that a fairly degrading job, but she said it was a lot of fun, and earned her a lot of money in a little bit of time, so she's have plenty left over for her studies (double majoring in engineering plus a minor in technical writing while editing a textbook for one of our professors was a fairly time consuming commitment to begin with).

Jam it back in, in the dark.