Why not legalize prostitution?

Guys why do you bother arguing in threads that will only be sealed forever the moment Styphon notices that something in the Palace is actually alive

FELIPE NO

All of the arguments are wrong anyways.

Human trafficking is only marginally impacted regardless of legalized prostitution. A black market for sex slaves will always exist.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

All of the arguments are wrong anyways.

Human trafficking is only marginally impacted regardless of legalized prostitution. A black market for sex slaves will always exist.

Arguments are not wrong, you just can't infer meaning to save your life. The point here being that in legalized sex houses, it would be damned hard to use illegally procured Taiwanese girls to service the men, due to the institutionalized nature of it. Human trafficking doesn't stop due to legalized prostitution, but legalizing it sure as hell doesn't have to hinge on the destruction of the sex slave pipe line.



(I can use obnoxious smilies too)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Looks like somebody's being serious in the Political Palace.

Your posts seemed to attempt to convey the idea that legalized prostitution would make it harder for human traffickers.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Looks like somebody's being serious in the Political Palace.

Your posts seemed to attempt to convey the idea that legalized prostitution would make it harder for human traffickers.

Internets. Serious business. Etc.

Also, yeah, upon re-reading them I can see how it comes across that way. Not what I meant to convey, though. Moreso that legalized prostitution makes it impossible, or at least very difficult, for LEGAL brothels to use cheap mexican sex work labour.

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There would be little reason for them to do so as well. It's not like a brothel madame is under the same competitive pressures as a bacon dog vendor.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

There would be little reason for them to do so as well. It's not like a brothel madame is under the same competitive pressures as a bacon dog vendor.

Quite.

I'm trying really hard to formulate a A tastes better than B joke here, but just assume I mad some snarky comment about flavour and product placement and we'll just go on living our lives.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Food for thought: Sold as a sex slave in Europe - June 2001: SEX SLAVES: Europe's trade in women - MSNBC.com

There's a small bit specifically about Amsterdam towards the end of the article.

It's not mentioned in this article, but Amsterdam has shut down a significant part of the red light district because of massive corruption. Perhaps that's an argument about how a government can take steps to improve conditions when prostitution is legal, or perhaps it highlights problems inherent to the industry.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Watts

3. Making sex a legalized commodity is a mistake.

All sorts of unintended consequences would result. Just watch me or some other dickwad slap down as many patents and copyrights as they can once sex becomes a legally recognized commodity.

Think about what companies like Monsanto have done for agriculture.

No one is marketing stem cells you inject into your dick to make it swell and glow green. What are you talking about? And why wouldn't someone have patented any invention already, to corner the rest of the world outside the US? Fucking IRAN has prostitutes ("temporary wives") so it's not like there's no market out there...

This thread is so American.

Originally Posted by RainMan

I think it's sadder that a bunch of men in suits can determine what women can or can't do with their bodies.

Interestingly, this is what prostitution often is!

FELIPE NO

I am a conservative. I see nothing really wrong with prostitution. I am sorry if someone has already said this, as I am far too lazy to read all that crap that people wrote. Why is it we can pay people to have sex with EACH OTHER... and TAPE IT, but we can't pay someone to have sex with you and NOT tape it. As long as there were not a lot of hookers walking the streets at night, and they had their own 'houses of ill repute', screw it, let them make a living however they deem necessary.

Additional Spam:
I would also like to add (without using the edit button for my previous post) that prostitutes make excellent firewood, as do homeless people.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I read an interesting book, the end of faith by Sam Roberts.

He argues that drugs are illegal only because it distracts people from praying and religion. The best proof of that: a legal kind of pot (i can't think of the name) is now on sale in Canada, but not in the US. It gives, so was I told, the same buzz as ordinary pot BUT contains not THC, the illegal substance in ordinary marijuana.

For prostitution, I believe it is the same case. The state wants to regulate mores to save the (inexisting) souls of its citizens.

One of Pierre Trudeau rare intelligent quotes was ''The state has no business in the nation's bedroom''. We should keep that in mind: what goes between CONSENTING adult, be there money involved or not, is no business of the state

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Alright, let's touch upon some of the issues you guys have been glossing over and/or dodging altogether:

Before we can willy nilly legalize prostitution, there are a lot of things that need to be considered. First, we run with the failure that is the Nevada prostitution system. In Nevada, brothels impose inordinate restrictions on prostitutes, requiring them to stay within (inside) the brothel for weeks, or months at a time. You don't like the rules, don't work legally, of which the vast majority of prostitutes opt for in Nevada. Then there's the underage prostitutes, being brought in with fake IDs, the stigma associated with being registered with the State as a prostitute, which can prevent them from obtaining other jobs (based on laws and on discrimination), the pimps that still manage virtually all legal prostitutes, the claims by ex-prostitutes of pimp abuse, brothel owner abuse, brothel bouncer abuse, and customer abuse, with prostitutes having no witnesses & no credibility, and thus no legal recourse. Then there's also such issues as what constitutes a legal prostitute. I.e., what laws would be in place to define prostitution as a business, whether it be individual, business entity, and/or location of business. Then there are the issues of legal prostitutes losing custody of their children, and/or giving custody as wards of the State, for the compounding problems of State/Federal regulations, individual brothel rules, child safety concerns and, again, the stigma of the industry biasing their day in court. Then we have all the ex-prostitutes that denounce legal prostitution, not merely for how it is virtually ungovernable, but for the psychosocial, and sometimes physical, damage that prostitutes incur. And we move onto touching upon how all of sex industries, legal or otherwise, are rife with abuse, corruption, exploitation. Then we discuss the issue of defining a legal prostitute, and how in Nevada there ar so many illegal prostitutes because they simply cannot qualify to be legal (drug history, etc).

And the list goes on: dehumanization, fostering sex addiction, escalation, infidelity, adultery (breach of marriage), etc.

So yes on your guys end, you're grossly oversimplifying this issue. On your end, it's slipping on a condom. But it's far more complex than a little latex barrier.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

You realise this thread has been dead for over half a year and the original member who posted it has been banned to never return.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

No, I realize that it's been dead for awhile but I wasn't sure if I should start another thread. I noticed this place has been quiet for almost a month now and wanted to see if anyone would like to pick this particular discussion back up.

Also, I don't understand what the original thread maker has to do with this. As far as I could tell, he wasn't even participating in the discussion.

Another point I would like to add: The job of a liberal democratic government is not to enforce any subjective morality but to protect the physical and mental well-being of its people. I would like to suggest that although prostitution is not necessarily physically harmful, there is certainly mental harm or degradation involved, the root cause of which can only have come from physical causes (drug addiction, coercion etc.) For that reason prostitution is both immoral and harmful to society as a whole and should therefore be illegal.
__________________

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Eschbach

No, I realize that it's been dead for awhile but I wasn't sure if I should start another thread. I noticed this place has been quiet for almost a month now and wanted to see if anyone would like to pick this particular discussion back up.

From what I'm to understand, threads that have been dead for a year are subject to having a discussion restarted in a new thread.

If it's 3 months...not so much. Though, I can't really see it as being anything different from what has been seen here. But I can say this, with SEX becoming so bad and evil and bad and nasty...before long we'll be using 3 seashells and every restaurant will be a Taco Bell with how anything that is 'immoral' is bad for society and should be banned.

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Go back and read my argument. That's not what I said at all.

I'll quote it because I think this is the main thing you may be overlooking:

Quote:

The job of a liberal democratic government is not to enforce any subjective morality but to protect the physical and mental well-being of its people. I would like to suggest that although prostitution is not necessarily physically harmful, there is certainly mental harm or degradation involved, the root cause of which can only have come from physical causes (drug addiction, coercion etc.) For that reason prostitution is both immoral and harmful to society as a whole and should therefore be illegal.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Criminalizing a health issue is a surefire way to turn it into a social one. Assuming that the majority of prostitution results from some form of coercion, how does the criminalization of the behavior and the subsequent punishments and records from enforcement help prostitutes break the chain of coercion? A criminal record involving a sexual taboo is like being relegated to a caste.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Eschbach

Go back and read my argument. That's not what I said at all.

I'll quote it because I think this is the main thing you may be overlooking:

I don't think you've ever seen Demolition Man.

As soon as we start outlawing everything that is bad, everything that can harm you physically or psychologically, you start taking away people's freedom and free will. Granted, some of them are reasonable laws due to the fact that some things out there will KILL YOU if you do it (hardcore drugs etc. etc.)

If a woman decides that she wants to make money selling her body, that is her choice. She will have to live with any consequences that come with it. So as I see it, people who want prostitution banned on the 'immorality' of it to begin with, just want to see those 'immoral whores' on the street get the punishment they deserve by not being in a safe enviroment to perform their job duties.

As far as physical and mental harm...ANY job has that. Hell, working at Wal-mart for 2 years made me feel like the most scummiest person in the world. Nothing I did for that company was ever right, no matter how hard I busted my ass, sweat dripping off of me at the end of everyday...it wasn't good enough. And dealing with customers? Do you know how demoralizing it is to be yelled at by a hairy fat guy in a wheelchair because he's too damn lazy to get off his fat ass to reach 3 shelves up to get an item? And how it's YOUR fault?

Not everyone lives in a happy go lucky suburban, middle to upper class home. Not everybody has that up-bringing. The worst time in my life was working for that company...does that mean wal-marts across the world should be banned? It hurt me physically and mentally every single day. So therefore, it should be according to your logic.

How ya doing, buddy?

But Grail, we all know you were only working there to feed your crack habit.

History has shown that prohibition achieves nothing except making more money for criminals. You can find something as distasteful as you want but that's not going to stop other people from wanting to do it and when you ban whatever that is, you only force it underground, making any regulation impossible, making money for criminals and lessening the protection for those involved. It really is as simple as that, banning things is a shit way to stop people hurting themselves or others doing them.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Shin

But Grail, we all know you were only working there to feed your crack habit.

History has shown that prohibition achieves nothing except making more money for criminals. You can find something as distasteful as you want but that's not going to stop other people from wanting to do it and when you ban whatever that is, you only force it underground, making any regulation impossible, making money for criminals and lessening the protection for those involved. It really is as simple as that, banning things is a shit way to stop people hurting themselves or others doing them.

Legalizing is a rubbish way to stop people hurting themselves or others doing them.

Funny how turning around comes to the same conclusion.

Point being, it's not an on/off switch. If prostitution is to be legalized, it needs to be done correctly. Interestingly enough, the same solutions that can be applied during legalization can also be applied during illegalization. That's the point of all this. Legalization is not the point, it is a distraction to the greater concern, which is that of ensuring people are not exploited, abused, misused, or otherwise injured by the business of prostitution.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Criminalizing a health issue is a surefire way to turn it into a social one. Assuming that the majority of prostitution results from some form of coercion, how does the criminalization of the behavior and the subsequent punishments and records from enforcement help prostitutes break the chain of coercion? A criminal record involving a sexual taboo is like being relegated to a caste.

Legalization of prostitution essentially says, "it's okay to exploit, abuse, misuse, or otherwise injure people, as long as the government get's a percentage of the profits."

Until there is a sincere and direct effort to address the REAL problem here, it cannot be legalized. If, in this direct effort, legalization is included, that's fine, but legalization, in and of itself, is not a solution, and is in fact counterproductive by by its very acceptance of dehumanizing commerce.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm one of those crazy people who thinks you ought to give people the choice whether or not they fuck themselves up though. If I'm not hurting anyone else, I don't really see why the government needs to legislate to stop me hurting myself if I so choose.

Now some folks will straight away say "But Shin, what about all the poor prostitutes that you're hurting and drugs farmers in South America you're keeping out of proper work and the huge cost to the health service, you're wilful disregard for prohibition laws hurts more people than you realise", to which I would point out that once an industry is legalised it can be legislated in ways to make it stop hurting people like that. If big business took over from drugs barons in importing coke then the farmers would at least be no worse fucked over than the ones growing chocolate and coffee at the moment and brothels could offer the same level of protection to their staff that say strip clubs do now. The cost of healthcare can be offset either by denying treatment to users of previously banned stuff (If you're a bastard) or realising that the revenue from selling these things with tax on would far outstrip the additional cost of hospital trips, which are already happening from people using shit illegally anyway.

The only downside would be that all the criminals would need other sources of income so would take up something else sketchy instead. Or, have an amnesty on drug dealers and pimps and give them all fucking jobs in the newly created industries. After all, who's going to make a better dealer or pimp, some civil servant or a guy who's been doing it for years already?

Quote:

Legalization of prostitution essentially says, "it's okay to exploit, abuse, misuse, or otherwise injure people, as long as the government get's a percentage of the profits."

That's incredibly blinkered. Legalisation of prostitution says "We know this shit happens anyway and there's fuck all we can do to stop it so we'll bring it out in the open to give us a chance of looking out for the people involved, improving their standards of living and working conditions and hey, make a couple of extra tax dollars while we're at it". Just because something is distateful to you, doesn't mean it's inherently evil and can't be conducted in more socially acceptable fashion.

Quote:

Until there is a sincere and direct effort to address the REAL problem here, it cannot be legalized. If, in this direct effort, legalization is included, that's fine, but legalization, in and of itself, is not a solution, and is in fact counterproductive by by its very acceptance of dehumanizing commerce.

So what are you saying the REAL problem is? That guys like having sex and some guys are too fucking ugly or socially inept to get any pussy so they go out and pay for it? Good luck addressing that problem pal. Maybe you should start a selective breeding programme for fat chicks with low self-esteem or something.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I know a few lasses who've told me they'd like to be a prostitute if it were legalised and properly regulated. If it is something in demand, and there are people who are willing to supply that demand who don't believe it would be dehumanising, wouldn't its legalisation at least stop illegal prostitution trafficking of young women who are forced into the business?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

No, BB. You don't get it. The far liberals know better than you about what demeans you. They're doing this for you. It makes them uneasy, so it MUST make you uneasy. Don't you get it?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Eschbach

Legalization of prostitution essentially says, "it's okay to exploit, abuse, misuse, or otherwise injure people, as long as the government get's a percentage of the profits."

Okay, I'm going to let it slide that you COMPLETELY ignored my post, but if you ignore this one, Eschy-boy, then I'll know you're just a selective hearing, self-centered bastard.

In my last post I outlined several ways how working for one retail company just happened to be complete hell for me. No rebuttal from you, however, explaining how the physical and mental stress I went through, was any different any prostitute could have even if it was legalized.

Now, the only address I did not make to my job is how they exploited, and misused their workers. This is how they did that. It's been a long standing 'secret' that everyone who works there for at least half a year comes to know. And that is every year, the managers at wal-mart get a bonus based on how FEW people run the store. I'm not talking about just assistant and department managers either, i'm talking about floor employees.

The managers would get a bonus depending on how few employees they had but still ran the store efficiently. So a department that would, at an given time of the day, need 4 or 5 people to run effectively, we would only have 1 or perhaps 2 people at any time during the day. Sometimes we got lucky and had 3, but we were never fully staffed. Why do you think you see Wal-mart getting sued all the time?

I know a lot of you are thinking "Well, Grail...why didn't you just quit or try and further yourself in the company?" Well, I did. After 3 years of working there I tried to go to 3rd shift for an extra dollar an hour...a week later they fired me on the grounds that for an ENTIRE year I was showing up late and leaving early...with no prior talkings to, or even mention that I was doing such a thing.

But that's the beauty of working in somewhere that's legal...you CAN quit at any time. Some prostitutes, if not most, never have that option. What I find hilarious is that most 'Moral, upstanding citizens' like yourself Esch, tend to be the ones that want to see people continue to suffer the most.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I probably have no place in here whatsoever, but Eschbach has caused me to say something.

I'm curious, Esch, what you know about every woman's wants and desires. I'm curious as to how you presume to know that a woman who choses to work in the sex industry wants. She just doesn't know better, that stupid slut, right? Some man made her do it! Or she's poor and never grew up right!

Don't fucking presume that all women in the sex industry are mistreated, abused, coerced, or generally pissed on. There are women who have a choice, and they actually CHOSE this line of work. Like Shin said: you may find it distasteful, and you're entitled to that opinion, but you have no right to tell people what to do based on your perception of reality.

If prostitution was legalized, regulations could be applied to the sex industry to keep women more safe from the mistreatment, abuse, coercion and all that which you've mentioned.

And look. No matter how hard people try to repress the sex industry, it will always, always, always exist. Best to treat it like every other goddamn commodity than to pretend it doesn't exist and try to repress it away.

You don't get to mommy everyone. Sorry.

FELIPE NO