HAY GUYS

Josiah · 04:55 PM

My system was set-up so every KO was worth 1 point. Since Kairyu had the advantage of his Pokemon doing double the damage they would normally do, I had to take that into account into the scoring; I did this by reducing the amount of points he gets per KO in half. Therefore, Kairyu would receive only a half of a point for every KO, while radcliff13 would still retain a point per KO.

You know, in theory it could be argued that Crash or Icy have the same advantage because their respective types have their fair share of really heavy hitters without necessarily having to be "super effective" against whoever they battle. Not that I want to lower their scores; I'm happy where I am, I'm just saying.

And radcliff did have one way of getting around that ground weakness: his Charizard. I learned the hard way trying to EQ him when he switched out to that one. Wouldn't Kairyu technically get a full point for KOing a Charizard since, unless he had Gravity somewhere (

), radcliff's Charizard would be completely immune to ground attacks?

Anywho, since this is all more or less overwith, I figure I could post up my team if people were curious.

Josiah's Normal Gym Team:

Spoiler:

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Kairyu · 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

Oh, no.

This is what I feared.

The secret rules that I did not tell you two implied the number of KO's with type advantage.

See, ground attacks does twice the amount of damage they would normally do on fire Pokemon. Since Kairyu is the ground Pokemon gym leader, he has the most amount of ground attacks. Fire attacks do not have this advantage; they only do what is normal for their attacks to do, on ground Pokemon. And since radcliff13 is the fire gym leader, he has the most amount of fire attacks.

My system was set-up so every KO was worth 1 point. Since Kairyu had the advantage of his Pokemon doing double the damage they would normally do, I had to take that into account into the scoring; I did this by reducing the amount of points he gets per KO in half. Therefore, Kairyu would receive only a half of a point for every KO, while radcliff13 would still retain a point per KO.

Since Kairyu KO'ed all six of radcliff13 Pokemon, he earns three points, but since radcliff13 KO'ed three of the six Kairyu had, he earns three points as well.

In other words - it's a stalemate.

Therefore, there must be an ultimate tie-breaker. Sudden KO showdown.

Kairyu will select one of his Pokemon to face against radcliff13, but radcliff13 will select two of his Pokemon to face against Kairyu. (Assuming that this is possible) And the rules are clear this time: whoever wins this match goes on to the next round.

Good luck to both of you!

Wait, that was your secret rule? And now you want me to go 2 against 1 against radcliff's pokemon? Going by a score set based on "projected" type advantages and disadvantages is one thing. Basing it on the number of pokemon you can use is another. It's not always correct to assume that. Think about it, would it not be unfair if me and Rad agreed to battle under those conditions? I may have the attack advantage with ground attacks but it's not impossible for Rad to avoid ._.
Coupled with his speed advantage and a flying type, I can see myself already taking a loss that way.

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

If I had known this would have been a tie, I would suggested a two on one match to Kairyu and discarded the secret rules to begin with.

I was just trying to keep things fair. If you think that goal is unnecessary - or garbage, and proceed this tournament on without a fair fight, then we are not representing a tournament that is deciding who is truly the best Pokemon gym leader.

This is especially so with radcliff13. Many of his loses came before he even had his full team ready to battle. And after that, he started winning.

Crash, you faced against Chaotic and Sousuke, and won both. Tell me, did it take more skill and planning to defeat Chaotic than it did to defeat Sousuke? Was Chaotic harder to beat because of his type rather than his skill? If you can honestly say no to both of these questions, I will concede to your point.

However, neither you or I is the creator of this tournament. Ultimately the decision goes to Kairyu.

Sigh, it's kind of odd that I'm both a player and coordinator of this tournament. I really wish it wouldn't have to come to this.

Personally, and I think I speak for most of the players involved in this thread. We need to end it already. We have our data, the top 4 placing and I did win the tiebreaker decision despite me having an attack advantage against fire. Besides, shouldn't the victory itself count for more rather than the amount of pokemon KO'd?

For a non-official tournament it is a bit complex. Remember we're just doing this for fun.
Honestly, we're pretending to fight gym leader style. This puts us at huge disadvantages at times (look at DarkMageOzzie's predicament.) And in other times it gives certain players an edge over someone else. None of it was done on purpose since the selection process was random. And in my opinion that was the fun of it. Everyone should have known beforehand that you may not get the most useful type. It's really a test of how resourceful you are with pokemon.

Anyway, I'll stand by my decision and agree that the top four place is:
Crash
Icy
Josiah
me

edit:
lawl, Josiah has a point with that idea.

How ya doing, buddy?

Sousuke · Jun 19, 2008, 05:57 PM

I'll follow Josiah's page, since this is over for me.

It'll be just a little different from his post, however.

Sousuke's Team::

And that's all. I think.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Penis Overflow · Local time: Jun 19, 2008, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Identity Crisis

So... why did the rules need to be a secret to begin with? If you planned on giving radcliff13 a handicap, what exactly was preventing you from telling Kairyu and radcliff13 about it up front?

I don't know ... I just thought that telling them the rules would have prevented a 'normal' battle between the two.

Originally Posted by Sousuke

Secret Rules? Bah. I totally agree with Crash here--even though I wasn't part of this round in the tournament, I think that having this 'half-point' idea is totally unfair. Just because Kairyu had the type advantage doesn't mean he should have a handicap--he was assigned that type by luck of the draw.

I hope you're prepared for the average imbalance of the game mechanics the next go-around (if you decide to enter).

Originally Posted by Josiah

You know, in theory it could be argued that Crash or Icy have the same advantage because their respective types have their fair share of really heavy hitters without necessarily having to be "super effective" against whoever they battle. Not that I want to lower their scores; I'm happy where I am, I'm just saying.

Yeah, Kairyu suggested something to me about base stats. While dragon has some heavy hitters, other types have more variety of Pokemon. The more variety, the more TMs can be used, among other things. Would have someone else been so successful with dragon/psychic types as Crash and Identity were? I honestly cannot say.

Originally Posted by Josiah

And radcliff did have one way of getting around that ground weakness: his Charizard. I learned the hard way trying to EQ him when he switched out to that one. Wouldn't Kairyu technically get a full point for KOing a Charizard since, unless he had Gravity somewhere (

), radcliff's Charizard would be completely immune to ground attacks?

An idea had occurred to me that Kairyu and radcliff13 would tell me their Pokemon viva PM before battle so I could evaluate it further - but that would have really complicated things.

Originally Posted by Josiah

Anywho, since this is all more or less overwith, I figure I could post up my team if people were curious.

Josiah's Normal Gym Team:

Spoiler:

Nice Pokemon, Josiah. Don't think I could pick better ones myself.

Originally Posted by Kairyu

Wait, that was your secret rule? And now you want me to go 2 against 1 against radcliff's pokemon? Going by a score set based on "projected" type advantages and disadvantages is one thing. Basing it on the number of pokemon you can use is another. It's not always correct to assume that. Think about it, would it not be unfair if me and Rad agreed to battle under those conditions? I may have the attack advantage with ground attacks but it's not impossible for Rad to avoid ._.
Coupled with his speed advantage and a flying type, I can see myself already taking a loss that way.

*sigh* I guess you're right.

Originally Posted by Kairyu

Sigh, it's kind of odd that I'm both a player and coordinator of this tournament. I really wish it wouldn't have to come to this.

I'll talk to you more about this in private, either through AIM or PMing here.

Originally Posted by Kairyu

Personally, and I think I speak for most of the players involved in this thread. We need to end it already. We have our data, the top 4 placing and I did win the tiebreaker decision despite me having an attack advantage against fire. Besides, shouldn't the victory itself count for more rather than the amount of pokemon KO'd?

I guess you're right. It's been over a month. But there have been reasons to why this tournament took so long. People didn't know how to prepare until they knew what their type was. If you could have used any type I have no doubt in my mind this tournament would have ended already.

Originally Posted by Kairyu

For a non-official tournament it is a bit complex. Remember we're just doing this for fun.
Honestly, we're pretending to fight gym leader style. This puts us at huge disadvantages at times (look at DarkMageOzzie's predicament.) And in other times it gives certain players an edge over someone else. None of it was done on purpose since the selection process was random. And in my opinion that was the fun of it. Everyone should have known beforehand that you may not get the most useful type. It's really a test of how resourceful you are with pokemon.

Anyway, I'll stand by my decision and agree that the top four place is:
Crash
Icy
Josiah
me

Okay. Check this post later for a new chart.

FELIPE NO

Sousuke · Jun 19, 2008, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

I hope you're prepared for the average imbalance of the game mechanics the next go-around (if you decide to enter).

Oh, I totally understand the game's mechanics, but what you've tried to imply for tournament rules is a little unsettling. Like Kairyu mentioned at some point, we KNEW that with our types, we'd be entering some battles at an advantage or disadvantage, depending on our opponents. That's why it was a 'Gym Battlers' tourny.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

^-^ · Local time: Jun 19, 2008, 06:57 PM

I don't know if I should be doing this, mainly because I'm more of a spectator for this than a participant this time...

C'mon, this isn't how you run a tournament. Hiding rules from an entrant? How is that fair for any of the opponents? In a Gym battle setting, you are going to have to put up with knowing if you have an advantage or disadvantage. The point in this scenario is that you have to put up with one specific type, meaning that you have to work WITH your type (not around it) to beat all of the other types, even if it is a weakness.

From what I'm reading, I'm kinda glad I couldn't enter this..

Sorry Kairyu.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Sousuke · 09:19 PM

To be honest, these 'rules' weren't implemented until Sand Brain showed up a couple of days ago. I thought everything was running smoothly until then.

Nothing against him, [her?] though.

[edit] Ahaha, Sand Brain. That was totally unintentional.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Kairyu · Local time: Jun 19, 2008, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by ^-^

I don't know if I should be doing this, mainly because I'm more of a spectator for this than a participant this time...

C'mon, this isn't how you run a tournament. Hiding rules from an entrant? How is that fair for any of the opponents? In a Gym battle setting, you are going to have to put up with knowing if you have an advantage or disadvantage. The point in this scenario is that you have to put up with one specific type, meaning that you have to work WITH your type (not around it) to beat all of the other types, even if it is a weakness.

From what I'm reading, I'm kinda glad I couldn't enter this..

Sorry Kairyu.

No offense taken, mini-face.

I blame myself for letting the rule mongering get too out of hand. One thing's for sure, I need to discuss ideas with Sane Brain more if I intend let him/her be a neutral referee for future tournaments. I got a lot of bright ideas from him (or her) though. But it's best not to retrofit everything onto this tournament. Again, no offense to you, Sane Brain.
I hope this doesn't deter you from participating future tournaments!

Anyway, as for the top 4 that are here. What do you guys want to do? I only suggested that the top 4 battle each other only to determine a clear winner. Seeing that Crash and Icy won most of their matches I see little reason to continue the battles.
Unless, of course, one of you feel that you can take the gold *looks at Icy's team*

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Josiah · Jun 19, 2008, 09:24 PM

I personally feel kinda "battled" out, so to speak, so I'm content with just saying I got third and that's that. Nothing against Crash, but battling him again sounds like masochism.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

DarkMageOzzie · Jun 19, 2008, 10:38 PM

Since people are listing off what their team was now.

Ozzie's Poison Gym Team

Spoiler:

I was speaking idiomatically.

Identity Crisis · 11:07 PM

I'll be fine with second place. The tournament has gone on long enough, and Crash probably already figured out how to answer my Focus Sash shenanigans. Besides, Josiah listed his team off already, and I don't want to start of with an advantage of knowing what his team consists of (although I already faced off against most of them anyway).

Identity Crisis' Dragon Gym Team

Spoiler:

All in all, this tournament was pretty fun. I look forward to the next one that's in store!

How ya doing, buddy?

Kairyu · Local time: Jun 19, 2008, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Josiah

I personally feel kinda "battled" out, so to speak, so I'm content with just saying I got third and that's that. Nothing against Crash, but battling him again sounds like masochism.

Yeah, me too. I need a break from battling really. In the mean time I can continue thinking about what the next tournament should be.

And because everyone else is doing it. I'll post my team too, most you know my strategy anyway :3

Kai's Gym Team:

Spoiler:

FELIPE NO

Crash "Long-Winded Wrong Answer" Landon · Jun 19, 2008, 11:24 PM

I'm in support of calling this finished. Icy beat me. I beat Josiah and Black Mage. Black Mage and Josiah beat Icy. We all had strengths and weaknesses. It's kind of academic at this point and I'd rather not invoke a ton of mathematics just to wear down a point.

So like the others, here's my team. I didn't really have a "main" force, as I adopted different strategies with each opponent and made good use of my entire bench.

Spoiler:

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Penis Overflow · Local time: Jun 20, 2008, 07:57 AM

So ... the top four ISN'T going to battle to see who's the best? Okay .... then what was the point of determining forth place in that case, anyways? >_> I REALLY disagree with you ending the tournament like this, but if that's what you want, then so be it.

Expect a PM soon, Kairyu.

(BTW, I'm a guy)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Sousuke · Jun 20, 2008, 11:38 AM

I got an interesting idea for the top four last night, if you guys are interested. An 'Elite Four' challenge, if you will. Simple rules would apply, just like the tournament, but with a couple small modifications:

From first page:

However, I'd imply the following as well:

Elite Four: Make a team of SIX, from your Gym Leader team. Choose your 'best' six.
Challengers: Make a team of SIX, out of your absolute best Pokemon. Keep in mind that there's no Legendaries or Wobuffet.
Once the battles are started, rosters and move pools may not be edited. You can, however, change the order of your roster, allowing you to open with a different Pokemon if you wish.

From there, the challengers would battle the Elite Four, in order, just as they would in-game. This is just a suggestion to 'challenge' the winners in a different fashion. I think it could be fun, just to see if the winners teams can stand up against a broader team. That, and because we sort of cut the tourny short.

Thoughts?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Identity Crisis · Local time: Jun 20, 2008, 10:59 AM

I like that idea, Sousuke. I was sort of curious how my team would stack up against a regular team not specifically designed to destroy dragons. However, it would really depend on whether or not Kairyu would be up for this sort of structure since he'd have to face all of the challengers by default. The rest of the Elite Four would be left with the challengers who defated Kairyu, which may be a significantly smaller amount (this is definitely true as the ranks get higher).

I have a few questions though. Would items be interchangeable for the challengers? For example, if someone left Choice Band on a Slaking for the first match, would that Choice Band stay on the Slaking for the remainder of the matches?

Also, how would we determine who the "real" Champion is if more than one person defeats us? I don't think we should have more than one person as the Champion if that was the case. Otherwise, the title sort of loses what little meaning it has already.

How ya doing, buddy?

Sousuke · Jun 20, 2008, 02:18 PM

I think it's not so much to determine a Champion, per se, but more of a test of both sides' abilities.

About items... I think to be fair we'd have to set the same rule for both the Four and the Challengers. So either have items locked, or not locked--whichever we decide, should we actually go for this.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Josiah · Jun 20, 2008, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

So ... the top four ISN'T going to battle to see who's the best? Okay .... then what was the point of determining forth place in that case, anyways? >_> I REALLY disagree with you ending the tournament like this, but if that's what you want, then so be it.

My guess is that we determined fourth place simply for the sake of having some degree of certainty about it, at least more than having a few people tied for it.

We did this for FUN, and I think it safe to say that most of us are content with how it all played out. There was a lot of battling going on, and after a while we can get a bit tired of it. And then it's not really "fun" anymore, it's "work". We've had our fun, and even learned something from it. I for one didn't think Normal-type pokemon could be such a force to be reckoned with, but I was proven wrong. But now you're more or less asking us to do more "work", which in the end might not even be that necessary. I appreciate you wanting to have some input on this man, but seriously, don't push your luck.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Crash "Long-Winded Wrong Answer" Landon · Jun 20, 2008, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Josiah

I appreciate you wanting to have some input on this

I don't.

Look, Sane Brain, you weren't an active participant. Yes, you stumbled upon this long after registration closed. Unfortunate but that's life. Other than being a spectator, you had absolutely no role in this event whatsoever. We edified the rules and bracketing format well before your arrival; everyone understood the rules and was accepting. I rather resent you bopping along and arbitrarily superimposing your own convoluted systems onto our event as if you're the grand arbiter of Poke-law and we're mud-harvesting peasants of the craft. Modifiers, half-points, SEKRIT BONUSES, whatever - it's more work and tabulation than we ever needed. Winners? Losers? Does it matter? It was entirely for fun. There doesn't need to be any ranked conclusion because nobody came away a loser for enjoying the time spent battling.

If you wish to run a tournament with as many clearly defined paradigms for calculating placement, please feel free. If the rules are fair, I'll participate and not make a peep over the structure. After all, your tourney, your rules, right? But when you're not involved, it's mighty damned presumptuous to act as if your methods are the best and as if everyone else is defying you by saying that the current outcome is satisfactory.

Most amazing jew boots

Penis Overflow · 05:19 PM

I like Sousuke's idea. I have a feeling that the other six couldn't beat all four in a row like that, but that's my prediction. I mean, Crash won against Chaotic.

Originally Posted by Josiah

There was a lot of battling going on, and after a while we can get a bit tired of it. And then it's not really "fun" anymore, it's "work". We've had our fun, and even learned something from it.

It's funny because all I suggested was doing three battles (the original idea that Kairyu had to begin with), none of which you would be involved in. But Sousuke's idea would - if you wanted to be, "champion". Personally, I think there could be more than one champion without the need to argue who's best after that.

Besides, preparing for a tournament like this is much more work in the end than battling in it (unless you happen to have six Pokemon ready to battle already).

I'm sorry for being intrusive, Crash. You're right... But hopefully I can participate in the ideas and planning without actually battling in the next tournament, since I don't have a Nintendo DS or Pokemon Pearl.

It's ironic. I was suggesting things because I thought that this would be the "work" part, and by suggesting things I would take the workload off of the active participants.

I think you are being overly-critical about what I was trying to do, Crash. I thought that being more fair and determining who the winner would be would make it funner. After all, you play Pokemon to win the battles and when you win the game, you get a sense of accomplishment, don't you? Despite your negative twist on all my exploits to this tournament, Crash, I was only trying my best to do a positive thing, so don't act like I'm some kind of enemy.

FELIPE NO

No. Hard Pass. · Local time: Jun 20, 2008, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

I think you are being overly-critical about what I was trying to do, Crash. I thought that being more fair and determining who the winner would be would make it funner. After all, you play Pokemon to win the battles and when you win the game, you get a sense of accomplishment, don't you? Despite your negative twist on all my exploits to this tournament, Crash, I was only trying my best to do a positive thing, so don't act like I'm some kind of enemy.

You know, Sane, ever since you got here, you've been acting so very shocked that you alienate the people around you with your bullshit. Which is funny, as I get the distinct impression this happens to you a lot. You're just not clever enough to be so smugly superior, mate. Just quit trying so hard. You'll fit in fine.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

***Jurassic Park Chocolate Raptor*** · Local time: Jun 20, 2008, 04:19 PM

I'm not sure if enemy is the right term. Try pompous twat instead.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Identity Crisis · Local time: Jun 20, 2008, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

It's funny because all I suggested was doing three battles (the original idea that Kairyu had to begin with), none of which you would be involved in. But Sousuke's idea would - if you wanted to be, "champion". Personally, I think there could be more than one champion without the need to argue who's best after that.

There are already some clear results for who earned what place. I don't see the need to have Kairyu prolong the tournament if nobody participating feels up for it. It's not like there's anything at stake.

The reason I support the Elite Four idea is that I'll be facing against one normally diverse team per player. At least the battles will be different from one side of the field, and I won't be spending that much time on them as I did with this tournament. However, I don't speak for the rest of the top four (or anybody else), so they may be as supportive as I am towards Sousuke's idea.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Penis Overflow · Local time: Jun 20, 2008, 06:10 PM

Let's not make this thread a personal attack on me, okay? If you have something to say to me that has nothing to do with this topic, I suggest you do it in the PM system.

My original intention upon entering this thread was creating a system that would calculate the overall strengths and weaknesses of each Pokemon type everybody had to face to produce a score that would make it so people would presumably not be tied in points when the final round began - simply to make less battles. However, it seems that my efforts did not come out the way I expected - as ties happened on both fronts. It made the problem worse. So I'll admit that was my fault. I'm sorry, okay?

I was not trying in any way to be superior to anyone in this thread. In http://www.gamingforce.org/forums/qu...order-fit.html I'll admit I was acting superior, but really I just don't think you considered all possibilities when it came to that question, Deni. I promise I will have a real post in that thread throughly detailing my position on that topic, but it will be a long post. I guess when I think about questions like those, I consider all possibilities and I analyze everything to the extreme, and in the result I spend many hours writing one post. But it's quality that counts.

I will not try to impose any change to any tournament without consulting everybody first. And I will not try to change any tournament that I was not involved with in the beginning. I learned my lesson.

Originally Posted by Identity Crisis

There are already some clear results for who earned what place. I don't see the need to have Kairyu prolong the tournament if nobody participating feels up for it. It's not like there's anything at stake.

Well ... have you considered the situation between yourself and Crash? Crash came first place in everything, because he won every match, but you. And you are in second place. I ... just ... think there should be one final epic match between you two to find out who is really the best.

Originally Posted by Identity Crisis

The reason I support the Elite Four idea is that I'll be facing against one normally diverse team per player.

Oooohhhhh.... Disregard what I said earlier, then. This idea is awesome.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Kairyu · Local time: Jun 20, 2008, 02:16 PM

Oh hey, what's going on in here?

Originally Posted by Sousuke

I got an interesting idea for the top four last night, if you guys are interested. An 'Elite Four' challenge, if you will. Simple rules would apply, just like the tournament, but with a couple small modifications:

From first page:

However, I'd imply the following as well:

Elite Four: Make a team of SIX, from your Gym Leader team. Choose your 'best' six.
Challengers: Make a team of SIX, out of your absolute best Pokemon. Keep in mind that there's no Legendaries or Wobuffet.
Once the battles are started, rosters and move pools may not be edited. You can, however, change the order of your roster, allowing you to open with a different Pokemon if you wish.

From there, the challengers would battle the Elite Four, in order, just as they would in-game. This is just a suggestion to 'challenge' the winners in a different fashion. I think it could be fun, just to see if the winners teams can stand up against a broader team. That, and because we sort of cut the tourny short.

Thoughts?

So more or less an open-ended tournament or challenge for anyone thinking they can take on Gamingforce's E4? I like that idea

Only question I have is, and assuming it is an ongoing thing. Do we let anyone go at it? Or will there some requirements before they can pursue the Champion title? Like collecting badges across the forums or having a certain amount of victories.
Now that I think about it. It almost sounds like an RP'ing idea than a tournament. Still sounds fun though. I'm up for it if the other top 4 players are willing to continue using their team. I certainly don't mind, it's a blast trying to overtake players using my ground types.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?