[SotW] Waiting Period Discussion

This thread does not have a poll or anything right now because I'm just making it for discussion about what we want to do about the waiting period. If we come to a consensus in a couple of days without one, that's great. We'll see how things go.

Here's some background on what exactly we're dealing with:

Originally Posted by CHz

The waiting period is neither a rule nor a guideline: it's a decree made by the SotW founder that was invoked probably once over the seventy weeks between when it was issued and a few weeks ago. Since then, it has been mentioned with regards to five tracks and counting, four of which have been nominated by people who only started participating after it was imposed. . . . the waiting period is not in the rules at all. It has never been formalized and just been treated as common practice between the people who actually remember it happening because there has never been a pressing reason to until now.

We have this idea where there's a waiting period between when a track is released and when it actually becomes eligible to be nominated, so that it can spread on its own, through the game being released in different countries, soundtrack being released and ripped, etc. The theory is that just because not many people have heard a track a few days or a few months after being released doesn't mean that it's obscure at all, but just that people haven't had time to hear it yet. Plus, there's the chance of unforeseen explosions in popularity.

We are here to decide whether or not this is a good idea in principle, and, if so, how long exactly the wait should be.

There's a lot of discussion starting here in the Week 124 thread, so read up on that. I threw out 3 months to get the ball rolling (I didn't even say 3 months after what: game release, soundtrack, etc.), and that seems somewhat palatable to some. There's a lot of range in what we can do here: just set a fixed time frame after the game's initial release, take into account a domestic release of the game and a soundtrack release, chuck the whole thing, etc. Rotorblade mentioned Darius Remix, which made me think of something very important: whatever we decide also has to take into account arrangement albums, original albums, and so on.

The rest of this post is just specific opinions I've picked out from the last thread:

Originally Posted by Rimo

Three months sound good. When a new album gets released (and even more so when it's shared by #gamemp3s), it receives a good deal of attention. So, I don't think it needs the boost of SotW yet.

Originally Posted by Djinova

Regarding the inhibition period for new releases, I'd put it 3 months after a game's release (1) in the US (2) for the following reasons:
1. OST wouldn't matter, because it's the chance to listen to the track that's important. The time that an OST is released is also quite arbitrary.
2. US, because that's when the chance is greatest to be exposed to a track.
If it's a JP release, then wait 6 months or so.

Originally Posted by surasshu

Anyway I do agree that a general rule should be formed (after all my nomination for NiGHTS 2 was shot down just a few weeks ago on similar grounds). 3 months after a game's US release sounds good to me as well.

Originally Posted by Elorin

I'm quite neutral on the issue of time frame with regards to newly released games/soundtracks. I guess just stick with something that works for administration purposes and as it stands, I think the current methodology is ok.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

my point goes back to when CHz made mention that the album for Omega Five was just released and we should give it time, whereas I felt it was more important that we go based off when the video game actually hits. Since that's the point of origin, barring any musical arrangements/remixes. I feel that VGM enthusiasm seems to often forget the very reason the music exists in the first place: the video game itself. I don't care where people find the music, just that we could make some kind of concession to original tracks if there's no gamerip. I could see us waiting on albums like the Darius Remix, which has absolutely no original music from any of the games in question, but if I had to wait to nominate an original track from Darius based off when the Remix album dropped, I'd be somewhat puzzled.

Originally Posted by Drakken

If its music happens to become popular after the soundtrack eventually comes out, so what? I don't think that's an issue.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

"We are here to decide whether or not this is a good idea in principle, and, if so, how long exactly the wait should be."
I think it's a good idea to have an exact wait time of 3 months for newly released tracks, be it on a game or on an OST, whichever comes first. For JP releases make it 6 months, whichever comes first. This would apply to "arrangement albums, original albums, and so on."

Otherwise if you think no one is going to listen to this album anyway, in which case the waiting period becomes redundant, you can demand a poll, so that anyone can vote yes or no and be done with it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

If it's a game rip, then 3 months after the game came out. If it's an OST, then 3 months after that.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Meh, I don't really care one way or the other. I've always self-imposed a limit of a few weeks.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

3/6/whatever months waiting period sounds fine to me. But it should also be taken on a case by case basis. If the game/source isn't expected to become quite popular (say doujin/freeware/some niche games), a waiting period is unnecessary. In any case, it's not the end of the world.

I would actually like to see Kaleb Grace's personal rule made the actual Song of the Week rule, in that nominated songs must be at least one year old. (Going by the age of that exact version of the song itself, with all the implications it means for OSTs & arrange albums.) Song of the Week is about finding obscure gems anew, not submitting three months recent #gamemp3s releases.

Of course, some may find that a little strict. And I understand that I have been absent from this competition for some time, so my voice may not carry much weight.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I believe the intent is to avoid nominations from albums that, soon after, become musical "sleeper hits."

A great example is Week 3: "Katamari Damacy (Game Rip) <Akitaka Tohyama & Kenji Niinuma> - The Moon & The Prince" was nominated and it placed. Soon after, the game's popularity exploded and the soundtrack was lauded by sites and magazines that otherwise have very little to do with VGM. Were the same track nominated today, we'd surely consider the music overexposed, or at least too well-known, for contention.

This is obviously a rare case, and "obscurity" is a relative term. The best measures we have are still quite insular; popularity here can be influenced by the oddest things and it doesn't always reflect an accurate global reality. But it's all we have, so GFF's game-popularity schematic is what we must use. This means that although stuff like Phoenix Wright probably is obscure enough on the rest of the internet, it should be considered taboo for SotW.

I think a 6 month moratorium on new gamerips and official albums is advisable. This is ample time to determine how well a game will do once it lands on store shelves. Once the limit expires, the track can be evaluated by its obscurity alone, and not its newness. If a track is deemed fit for SotW, then the game later becomes a hit, then so be it.

Arranged albums should be eligible from their first day of print, unless that day is still within the 6 months following the game's release date. They're not featured in-game, so it's not quite as much of a timing concern for me.

FELIPE NO

I personally don't like the rule at all. If a track goes in, THEN becomes overexposed, big deal...It's not like it's going to happen with more than 4-5 soundtracks per year. The Katamari track in question didn't even win and opinions were divided. Even Lost Odyssey or Soma Bringer (Uematsu and Mitsuda, respectively) aren't exactly lighting things up across VGM-land, nor do I expect them to.

So I'm fine with new releases in general. Anything past a few weeks is too obsessive for my liking. If anything, highlighting new OST's would stand out as a positive thing to me.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

If I actually wanted us to go on a case by case basis, I think there are a lot of releases that really don't require that much thought as to determining whether or not they are going to be obscure. I would argue in the case of Omega Five easily, it's just not a Katamari, pure and simple. The most coverage I've seen it get is in reference to the fact that "At least it's only 10 dollars."

I agree with the 3 month sentiment for waiting, especially in the case of many game titles that just aren't going to explode in popularity. Considering we're already using "house rules" regarding what is obscure in the first place, I think placing contention on how long a game should wait to pick up based on outside communities is a bit goofy.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

As Moguta stated, my personal stance is to pick something from over a year ago. I just don't want to get in the habit of nominating every great new song I download off of #gamemp3s. Chances are that a lot of other people are already actively checking out these new soundtracks (many in more legal methods). A lot less are going back to listen to older, obscure albums -- and that's largely what SotW is about.

Since SotW has always relied on the participants to shape new rules, the majority will have their way regardless of what I propose. In this case, I shall go ahead with supporting my 1 year waiting period. However, I feel Crash's 6 month waiting period is a lot more reasonable for the majority of people.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm down with 6 months. Even though that means I won't be able to nominate Oneechanbara until August. :*(

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Six months sounds fine to me.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

As I said before, I don't have a strong preference at all on what should be the ideal waiting period. But whether the waiting period should be after the gamerip is released or after the OST, I think it should be whichever is earlier. As we know, some games take forever to release an OST so a rip may surface first. Others release the OST before the game releases, resulting in the gamerip to appear even later.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Kaleb.G

In this case, I shall go ahead with supporting my 1 year waiting period. However, I feel Crash's 6 month waiting period is a lot more reasonable for the majority of people.

Since the NiGHTS 2 thing, I've taken to just looking at the year of the release and making sure it's 2006 or before (or "current year -2", if you prefer). I understand the reasoning behind this rule--when we talk about obscure stuff we have to say obscure by game music aficionado standards, so stuff that was recently posted on #gamemp3s wouldn't qualify.

But I do believe that there could be exceptions, for example for freeware games that get almost zero attention. In those sitations the nominator should make a case for it. More or less what happens now with obscure games in series that are deemed too popular.

So yeah I support the above-quoted sentiment. (But 3 months would be okay for me as well, it's not like new music is rotten or anything.)

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I'm down with 3 months myself. It's not like 6 months is a much more accurate popularity assessment period than 3 months.

FELIPE NO

Alright, seems it's mostly just haggling over how long to wait at this point.

Is there anyone actually opposed to adding some sort of exception clause where a nominator can argue that a track should be exempt from the waiting period? Seems like that idea's got some support, and I like it myself.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by CHz

Is there anyone actually opposed to adding some sort of exception clause where a nominator can argue that a track should be exempt from the waiting period? Seems like that idea's got some support, and I like it myself.

It's a fair consideration, and it doesn't guarantee anything. But it's perfect for quirky titles like "Aquaria."

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Yeah, I think arguing on a case by case basis is fine, as long as it doesn't get too crazy. Songs from indie games and smalltime XBLA titles and such.

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As for as the distinction between game or soundtrack, Japanese or American/European/etc. release, and other nonsense... I think the waiting period should just be started at whatever comes first.

Honestly, the only time I feel a distinction should be made (and this has happened before) is if someone plans to nominate a track from a game rip when the soundtrack is scheduled to be released in less than a month. Then they should wait for the release of the soundtrack. But that's more of a different subject.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I wonder, should there perhaps be some sort of rule that any album distributed by a popular release group, like #gamemp3s or even Slightly Dark, no matter the popularity of the game itself, be ineligible for nomination for a separate, longer period of time? Or that such-released songs will not be given a chance to bypass the waiting period? (I bring this topic up because it seems unlikely that a long wait, say 6 or 12 months, will be implemented.)

Would I be wrong to assume that most people involved with Song of the Week, and even game music in general, are interested in VGM enough to keep up with #gamemp3s and SD?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Actually...I only recently started browsing #gamemp3s. I haven't visited SD in probably over a year.

How ya doing, buddy?

#gamemp3s is certainly well-followed, but not Slightly Dark.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

At this point I don't want to consider making limits based on particular release groups. A soundtrack's release date is pertinent to the soundtrack itself, whereas an external MP3 release group isn't. While this isn't to say that the groups don't have influence (note the BSC), I think it's more of a subjective measure.

FELIPE NO

Summary:

Opinions are split on 3/6/12 months. I will start a poll with these options soon, but there is one issue that I need to have resolved first: the exact point that the waiting period starts. This hasn't really been addressed by a whole lot of people. It seems a majority are in favor of whenever the initial release of the track is (game release, soundtrack release, whichever is first), but there are some other opinions like different periods based on Japan-only and U.S.-released games and having no period at all for arrangements and I'm assuming other non-in-game tracks. This could actually affect some votes, which is why I want it nailed down beforehand.

I'm voting for initial point of release, be it in-game or on an album, game composition or arrangement or original track. Any significant disapproval? I'm more than willing to start a poll for this as well, but I want to see this part wrapped up pretty quickly so we can get a move on.

Also, everyone likes exceptions, so that's definitely in.

How ya doing, buddy?

I also think it's probably best to keep things simple: 6 months from the first release of the actual track. So if it's from a game rip, it would be counted from release date of the game, and if it's from a soundtrack, the release date of the soundtrack.

Jam it back in, in the dark.