Products of Creation Science

I know that. I'm just including it for the morons who really believe in the Great Old Ones.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I personally believe that even though they were completely uptight pricks, the gods of Greek mythology were pretty fucking simple.

I mean seriously, if you were a sailor, you prayed to posiedon and worshiped him, if you were a swinger you prayed to aphrodite, if you enjoyed killing the fuck out of people you worshipped Ares, and if you were an emo prick, you'd worship Hades.

But all in all, in greek and roman religion, it all started with ONE being, I believe it was Chronos for Greek, and his roman name escapes me now.

The one good thing Greek and Roman mythology had going for it was that yes, these gods were all powerful, and demanded your worship, made you sacrifice things you held dear, and all around were used to explain how things happen...and this is why I enjoy Greek and Roman mythology the most...

NO ONE EVER CLAIMED THAT THE GODS LOVED US AND CARED ABOUT US AT ALL.

Unlike a certain diety that hides behind the idea that as long as you do what he says, you'll experience a blissful afterlife...but if you don't you suffer for eternity...but he still loves you.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I don't think that was unique to greek or roman myth. In fact I think it was characteristic of the time that the gods were part of a fickle and uncaring nature. You did what you could to appease them, and otherwise went on with your life and hoped you didn't catch their attention.

In God's defense though, there is some difficulty reconciling free will with bliss for everyone. If you define infinite love as bliss for everyone, things get sticky. I think all that implies is that bliss for everyone and infinite love are not necessarily identical. Assume that heaven and hell are natural consequences, rather than assignations and you see where I'm going.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

These issues don't really affect my faith because I'm more focused on the getting-into-heaven thing. To me that takes precedence over whether or not the Old Testament is 100% factual.

So you're essentially trying to kiss your god's ass to get into his post-death rave?

You don't really care about his really awesome book, but more how you're going to get past the bouncer and through the pearly gates?

I'm just trying to understand, here.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

So you're essentially trying to kiss your god's ass to get into his post-death rave?

Thats the way I read it.

Basically, if I had a really good pitch, I could say "Give me $500 and you go to heaven when you die" and I'll be just as legit as his current bullshit theological idealism.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Avalokiteshvara

In God's defense though, there is some difficulty reconciling free will with bliss for everyone. If you define infinite love as bliss for everyone, things get sticky. I think all that implies is that bliss for everyone and infinite love are not necessarily identical. Assume that heaven and hell are natural consequences, rather than assignations and you see where I'm going.

Natural consequences is perfectly fine, and I gladly accept that. If I'm a deadbeat asshole that only seeks to cause harm to others somewhere down the line in an extreme way, I'd accept the fact I'm going to burn.

But I think if I'm a generally nice guy, who makes people laugh, has a good time without it being at others expenses (not all the time >.>) and all around doesn't harm a soul, I don't think I should be damned to an infinate abyss of torture and slavery just because I don't believe in God.

But that's the way it is...most the time if you don't believe in God, you burn, or in some cases, the J-Dawg. That's just messed up in my opinion

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LeHah

Basically, if I had a really good pitch, I could say "Give me $500 and you go to heaven when you die" and I'll be just as legit as his current bullshit theological idealism.

I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church already tried that one a few decades ago. At least you know it could work! =D

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Of course geopolitical situations are going to influence the growth and development of religions, but the opposite statement is true as well. There is no truth to find in between, sincere conversions are as numerous as political ones. Religion is a factor of coherency, and has been used as such since the dawn of times.

Now, as to say the fact the ones that spread by far the most are all monotheistic and advocate a personal spiritual development is purely the coincidence of geopolitics seems like quite a statement.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church already tried that one a few decades ago. At least you know it could work! =D

If by decades you mean centuries? I thought indulgences was around Chaucer's time.

Gumby, I was thinking more along the lines of natural consequence of not being God's pet is not chilling with God after death. Might get kind of twisted into eternal suffering in comparison maybe. Thing that's fucked up with religion is there's a lot of people who can't do logic mucking around with it. Makes it difficult to discuss internally consistent ideas of God. Kind of like a Where's Waldo book, except with ideas. =(

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Originally Posted by LeHah

Thats the way I read it.

Basically, if I had a really good pitch, I could say "Give me $500 and you go to heaven when you die" and I'll be just as legit as his current bullshit theological idealism.

That's what the corrupted popes tried 500 years ago, and it created protestantism.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church already tried that one a few decades ago. At least you know it could work! =D

Decades? I take it you're not familiar with the fact that Martin Luther abolished it a long time before that...

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by niki

Now, as to say the fact the ones that spread by far the most are all monotheistic and advocate a personal spiritual development is purely the coincidence of geopolitics seems like quite a statement.

It only seems like quite a statement until you realize that all of the major monotheistic religions are just variations on a theme. Judaism was built on to form Christianity, which was built on to form Islam. All three of these religions believe basically the same thing about God, they just argue about who wrote it all down best.

In any case, Hinduism is probably the best possible argument for religion as a geopolitical characteristic. I'm not sure there's any other way to look at it.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by knkwzrd

It only seems like quite a statement until you realize that all of the major monotheistic religions are just variations on a theme. Judaism was built on to form Christianity, which was built on to form Islam. All three of these religions believe basically the same thing about God, they just argue about who wrote it all down best.

In any case, Hinduism is probably the best possible argument for religion as a geopolitical characteristic. I'm not sure there's any other way to look at it.

It's late ... It indeed didn't translate in what I wrote but I was actually including sets of Asian religions in my line of thought (Buddhism, Taoism ...). The advocate a personal spiritual development is what matters in that argument, whom core problematic is to know if wealth creates those religions or if it's the other way around.

I don't know much about Hinduism, honestly. =/

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I would argue that by and large, Christianity and Islam don't realistically advocate personal spiritual development. I do not dispute that it is possible to achieve personal spiritual development through those religions, but I think it's a tad idealistic to think that is the actual goal of either of these greater religious organizations.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LeHah

Decades? I take it you're not familiar with the fact that Martin Luther abolished it a long time before that...

Yea, I meant to say centuries, I am sorry. I am a dolt. (Protestants and all that stuff, check.)

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

These issues don't really affect my faith because I'm more focused on the getting-into-heaven thing. To me that takes precedence over whether or not the Old Testament is 100% factual."

Standard modern Christian argument.

If the Old Testament is not true, then Christianity loses all validity. You'll have to try better than that.

Originally Posted by Grail

I personally believe that even though they were completely uptight pricks, the gods of Greek mythology were pretty fucking simple.

So was the original Yahweh of the Jews. He was pretty damn human. It wasn't until the Prophets section of the Hebrew Bible that Yahweh God who cast plagues on people he thought might be worshiping other gods became "the Lord" who loves His people.

For the record.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Wow! About the 'confinement' thing. I guess I'm approaching it the wrong way. If someone asks me to describe the spreading of Christianity throughout history I just wouldn't think to use the word 'confined'. I'm the one who brought it up so I apologize for inadequately explaining what I meant by it. I didn't really look at it in small chunks, and when I did I was thinking about Israel, then Asia Minor, Roman provinces, and then Rome which, to me at least, seems like pretty good progress for that time frame.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

So you're essentially trying to kiss your god's ass to get into his post-death rave? You don't really care about his really awesome book, but more how you're going to get past the bouncer and through the pearly gates?

Gee, that's one way to look at it. I certainly wouldn't word it that way. "Kissing ass" implies that I do something even though I don't want to...but that isn't the case with true Christians. And I do care about the bible a great deal because it offers a lot of insight into what is important to God. I don't want to "get past the 'bouncer". I want the bouncer to look at me, my past, and the motives behind all the choices I've made. And hopefully he'll deem me worthy and let me in.

About the Old Testament not being 100% true. I belong to the group of Christians who have trouble interpreting all events of the Old Testament literally. There are biblical principles that explain why this doesn't invalidate Christianity. It goes hand in hand with why Christians don't have to adhere to the Mosaic law the way that the Jews do. But again, if you're not a believer then you'll hardly be satisfied with that. Still, interpreting a few parts figuratively hardly puts me in the position of discrediting the Old Testament. I think it's great, it is necessary to understand the sacrifice Jesus made, it is an essential source of prophecy...but without the new testament it just wouldn't matter to anyone but the Jewish people.

More to address. Post too long already. Sorry for getting on so many people's nerves.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by knkwzrd

I would argue that by and large, Christianity and Islam don't realistically advocate personal spiritual development. I do not dispute that it is possible to achieve personal spiritual development through those religions, but I think it's a tad idealistic to think that is the actual goal of either of these greater religious organizations.

That's such a complex question. If we talk about dogmas, which Christianity ? Which Islam ? At what point in time ? In which context ? =/

Western Christianity alone can be so different whether you look at it at a certain point in time or another. I personally think the purpose and true spirit of the western Christian church was lost some time around 1200 when the society it had been designed for evolved to something else.

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

If the Old Testament is not true, then Christianity loses all validity. You'll have to try better than that.

Jesus' sayings very clearly invalidate numerous things from the Old Testament, though. There again, it's more complex than that in both ways.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Gee, that's one way to look at it. I certainly wouldn't word it that way. "Kissing ass" implies that I do something even though I don't want to.

Yeah, but this is what following most religions is all about. You do things in your life on an everyday basis, but for the most part, it has to be within a certain set of rules.

It's actually human nature to want to do everything one can without consequences, to have no worries of repercussion at all, to be truly 'free' as one would say. Every Sunday people go to church, some are bred to believe that they SHOULD go to Church every sunday, and learn to enjoy it...but deep down I'm sure that a lot of the times they are going there just to kiss ass.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

There's quite a bit of truth in what you say, although I would still shy away from the "kiss ass" phrasing. I think many Christians feel pressure to attend services. There's so many things that time could be used for; fun, friends, studies, work, yadda yadda. So why do they go? Some fear God (which plays directly into the ass-kiss stance), others may go strictly for the social aspect (which can be a good or bad thing), others have responsibilities to the church, and still others because their family makes them. The best reason to attend I suppose would be to experience the joy of communing with God and learn His way while in the company of fellow believers.

I totally agree that a lot of people go to church not so much because they want to, but because they feel they are supposed to. I see it all the time. I used to be one of them. But I realized that I was offering my time as a sacrifice that was pleasing to God and eventually it brought me joy to do so. Some Christians find that joy right away, others may struggle their whole lives. Additionally, the simple fact of just being there exposed me to teachings I wouldn't discover on my own.

A lot of things about the Christian faith stand in opposition to what is generally accepted in the world. Conflict, such as the one prevalent throughout this thread, occurs when Christians promote their way of thinking. The term "slave to Christ" is certainly not going to sound very appealing to the masses, but it is something that Christians actually strive for. It's corny, it's cheesy, but it's true that there is freedom to be found when you willingly abide by the Christian principles Jesus established. It's a freedom from the stress, anger, depression, and other pains any person must endure. ?! Good golly, it's getting even cheesier. :P *bracing myself to get flamed*

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by niki

Jesus' sayings very clearly invalidate numerous things from the Old Testament, though. There again, it's more complex than that in both ways.

Jesus was most likely a Pharisee with major influence from the Essene sect. When we look at him from a non-Christian perspective, he never specifically went against the Law, but was a left-winger who struggled to fight against the status quo. (i.e. the Sadducees and the more right-wing Pharisees).

Still, I wasn't arguing about that, exactly, but the Christian interpretation. Anyone can read Jesus as a Jewish commentator in line with the other prophets; to convince people that he was the Messiah that had been predicted (not to mention warping other verses in the Old Testament to make him appear godly), it is necessary to accept the Old Testament as fact.

While I am all for reading the Old Testament (and the New Testament, for the record) with a figurative outlook, I'd question any Christian about which verses they choose to be figurative and which literal.

Case in point: Jews since before Jesus read the verse that predicts that the Messiah will hail from Bethlehem as meaning that he will be descended from King David (who was born there); the Christians created this entire story based on how a couple from Nazareth (Joseph and Mary) were somehow in Bethlehem when Mary gave birth. Clearly, they took the Old Testament a little more literally than the Jews, at that point.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

There's quite a bit of truth in what you say, although I would still shy away from the "kiss ass" phrasing.

But why?

That's what you're doing. You're saying "I don't really pay attention to the whole BIBLE thing - I just want to get on God's cool list!" Which, if you ask me, is not very Christian at all.

You're afraid of the consequence - you're not actually paying attention to the point. I'm not a religious person, but if I were, I'd be offended.

Quote:

I think many Christians feel pressure to attend services. There's so many things that time could be used for; fun, friends, studies, work, yadda yadda. So why do they go? Some fear God (which plays directly into the ass-kiss stance), others may go strictly for the social aspect (which can be a good or bad thing), others have responsibilities to the church, and still others because their family makes them. The best reason to attend I suppose would be to experience the joy of communing with God and learn His way while in the company of fellow believers.

What does church have to do with what you believe? It's just a big building where a certain type of believer congregates to worship. Apparently, God hears you better if you're all praying at once in the same place?

Which seems a little weird to me.

If you want to worship your lord, you shouldn't need a building and an organization to do it.

You can commune with god (and I sincerely believe this of any religion) anywhere you go, no matter your company. At least that's what they say about god. And it's the nicest thing I can think of when it comes to a deity. I would love it if everyone for their own path to god, and found it without the "help" from a church or organization.

You know why people "fear" god? Because the church wants you to. It keeps you in check. It creates (no offense) people like you who follow the religion not because of the good message it brings, but because you're scared shitless of going to hell.

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I totally agree that a lot of people go to church not so much because they want to, but because they feel they are supposed to. I see it all the time. I used to be one of them. But I realized that I was offering my time as a sacrifice that was pleasing to God and eventually it brought me joy to do so. Some Christians find that joy right away, others may struggle their whole lives. Additionally, the simple fact of just being there exposed me to teachings I wouldn't discover on my own.

I don't know why you keep talking about "going to church." It has very little to do with actual religion and a belief structure.

Quote:

A lot of things about the Christian faith stand in opposition to what is generally accepted in the world. Conflict, such as the one prevalent throughout this thread, occurs when Christians promote their way of thinking. The term "slave to Christ" is certainly not going to sound very appealing to the masses, but it is something that Christians actually strive for.

Yes, of course it is. Because that's what you're taught to be.

I don't understand how this isn't transparent to you. You're pretty much admitting that the GOAL is to be a slave to Christ.

Quote:

It's corny, it's cheesy, but it's true that there is freedom to be found when you willingly abide by the Christian principles Jesus established. It's a freedom from the stress, anger, depression, and other pains any person must endure. ?! Good golly, it's getting even cheesier. :P *bracing myself to get flamed*

Yes, it's freedom. You know how? Because you willingly reduce yourself to a little robot.

You don't have to challenge yourself. You don't have to think about what is actually right and wrong. You don't have to think about morals. You only have to do what the church tells you to do.

They say ignorance is bliss, afterall.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

What does church have to do with what you believe? It's just a big building where a certain type of believer congregates to worship. Apparently, God hears you better if you're all praying at once in the same place?

Which seems a little weird to me.

If you want to worship your lord, you shouldn't need a building and an organization to do it.

You can commune with god (and I sincerely believe this of any religion) anywhere you go, no matter your company. At least that's what they say about god. And it's the nicest thing I can think of when it comes to a deity. I would love it if everyone for their own path to god, and found it without the "help" from a church or organization.

It is important to point out before anything else that, if you are a (sigh) "True Believer", it's nice to find places to congregate and pray together. Even if God hears no matter what, merely for the sake of the "saved" praying together has its benefits.

More technically, although you seem to have been speaking broadly, I know that the Church isn't exactly extra-biblical. After the Gospels, the New Testament is wrought with the history of the Church, or merely references.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

It is important to point out before anything else that, if you are a (sigh) "True Believer", it's nice to find places to congregate and pray together. Even if God hears no matter what, merely for the sake of the "saved" praying together has its benefits.

More technically, although you seem to have been speaking broadly, I know that the Church isn't exactly extra-biblical. After the Gospels, the New Testament is wrought with the history of the Church, or merely references.

I get the social aspect. You want to chill with people who are like you. TOTALLY respectable. I'd do the same. (Until that group started asking me for my money, telling me how to behave, telling me what's right and wrong despite what I think of the Bible)

I don't think (to the best of my recollection) that the Bible says "Thou shalt attend church at least 4 times a month in order to get into Heaven." ((I know some of are you going to come back with "But the Sabbath!" which is not "church."))

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Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Which, if you ask me, is not very Christian at all.

NOT CHRISTIAAAAN!

There's nowhere I can't reach.