Bigger travesty: Slavery vs. Holocaust

Originally Posted by RainMan

Not to mention the vatican's role (or lack of concern) in regards to the Holocaust. There was no visible opposition from the Catholic Church in saying 'This is wrong'. Meanwhile, millions of jews were being killed. The point is that the church had the power to do something positive, and decided not to.

Rabbi David G. Dalin disagrees.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I didn't notice the slavery comment, so I'd like to address it now:

There aren't really any benefits from slavery, since slavery isn't as efficient as free labor. It's never been a good system, and the only reason it exists is so that those with power can claim ownership over other human beings.

Any institutions or societies built on the back of slaves were created unnecessarily at the cost of human lives, and if those people had done that work as free men the world would be a much better place.

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You missed the slavery comment because it wasn't actually made. GhaleonQ asked if slavery did "some good", but didn't specify what kind of good, when asking what good came from ethnic cleansing.

You're arguing from a purely economic standpoint in slavery wasn't beneficial, and in that perspective, you're right, and the results of the Civil War prove as much. That isn't to say that there weren't other ways that slavery could have been beneficial. Booker T. Washington provides one argument for that position in Up From Slavery:

Quote:

"Think about it: We went into slavery pagans; we came out Christians. We went into slavery pieces of property; we came out American citizens. We went into slavery with chains clanking about our wrists; we came out with the American ballot in our hands...Notwithstanding the cruelty and moral wrong of slavery, we are in a stronger and more hopeful condition, materially, intellectually, morally, and religiously, than is true of an equal number of black people in any other portion of the globe."

If you want to look for good that has resulted from slavery, that would probably be the best case.

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Yeah, and all the blacks would still be in Africa.

I'm not sure how great a good it is that slavery freed some people from a Dark Continent that is still steeped in slavery and various other forms of forced labor.

The assumption that Washington makes is that Africa would still be an ignorant global backwater without the slave trade. This likely would not be the case if people did not institutionalize forced labor, anywhere.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Quote:

The assumption that Washington makes is that Africa would still be an ignorant global backwater without the slave trade. This likely would not be the case if people did not institutionalize forced labor, anywhere.

On what do you base this assumption, exactly? The geography and climate of subsaharan Africa in many ways precluded the development of industrial society.

For instance, part of the reason Europe was able to industrialize was its river systems, which allowed cities, large population, infrastructure and commerce to develop. Africa has a similar river system, but its rivers had the problem of breeding mosquitoes, which in turn carried malaria. As a result, Africans avoided their bodies of water as much as they could, and the societies that developed were perfectly adapted for surviving in the environment, but were ill-equipped to develop to the level that those in Europe and Asia did. (At the same time, this served to effectively bar European settlement until they could effectively combat malaria.)

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I'd actually say science has killed more people than anything else.

I mean, how effectively could we wage war without anything more complex than sticks and our bare fists?

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Originally Posted by Capo

I never asserted that "the ends justified the means". Again, if you had read the thread (all of it, mind), you would have seen I was responding to someone who was extolling the virtues of slavery with an equally ludicrous statement.

I am glad to see that. Pardon me. I considered it unlikely that we'd ever agree on something.

Quote:

Rabbi David G. Dalin disagrees.

Thanks for that, though this perspective is not exactly common. I'd like not to be cynical towards the church but it usually doesn't end well. Its difficult to say which perspective is falsified and which isn't. Even so, this looks promising.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I'd actually say science has killed more people than anything else.

I mean, how effectively could we wage war without anything more complex than sticks and our bare fists?

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but not much more.

We could always capture wild cheetahs and train them to attack our enemies. If they get out of line we show them who's boss by beating them with our sticks.


And as for the topic, I think slavery IS worse because you have to endure a lifetime of pain and suffering, there was the same type of family separation that the holocaust had, and the worst part, it's still prevalent in many of todays societies. Some slave owners were worse than others, but one that rings a bell is Ancient Egypt...they were treated like absolute shit. They barely god fed, what they were fed was just enough to live, they got whipped and beaten, and had no free will. During the holocaust, a lot of them believed (or wanted to believe) they would survive and this was all temporary, only to find out at the end that it wasn't. I would have rather been gassed.

There's nowhere I can't reach.