Next-Gen filesharing discussion

Hi there,

I wanted to start some serious discussion about next-generation file-sharing software. What I mean by next-generation:
- decentralized
- encrypted
- (pseudo-)anonymous (real 100% anonymous transfers are simply not possible with the current network infrastructure)

This topic should e.g. not be about:
- edonkey2000 (not encrypted, not anonymous)
- bittorrent (not anonymous)
- one-click hosting (not really anonymous and most of the time not encrypted)
- etc.

I'm currently thinking about dropping my standard 'methods' of filesharing, because it has become too dangerous (at least here in Germany). Nearly all providers hand out IP-data if they're put under pressure, and the political situation won't make it better (probably even worse).

So, maybe I should name a few softwares (protocols) that are next-gen:
- TOR (the onion router): this one even works together with the rest of the 'outer'-network through the use of exit-nodes
- I2P: some sort of anonymization/encryption layer over the existing IP-network
- WASTE: Made popular through the 'uncontrolled' Nullsoft release
- Freenet: the first next-gen app I heard of actually

I2P is especially interesting because it doesn't provide a complete program but only a new layer that applications can use. Maybe you know the I2P plugin of Azureus which makes of the network. TOR can also be used by Azureus but that's another story.
The standard I2P package is written in Java and also contains a native bittorrent client (one written on top of the I2P layer). There's also a aMule port (iMule) on top of I2P.

However edonkey2000 over I2P is a completly new network, with no connection to the regular ed2k network. There are no exit-nodes that connect the two.
Means fewer files shared in the entire network and of course slower downloads. And transfers in general are a lot slower because of the routing between nodes (to gain anonymity).

So what about you? Have you thought about switching to next-gen filesharing or maybe you're already using it?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Recently, the anime distributor in my country's been cracking down rather hard on anime downloaders and so on. Though this isn't really a problem for me, the fact that 2/3 of the ISPs in my country gave out customer information with hardly any pressure give credence to the fact that they might probably do so if some other company decided to do the same thing.

However, to me, the problem with such next-gen file sharing systems is that, as you mentioned, they affect the whole nature of file sharing as a whole. Granted, it gives you more protection, but the fact that you're not able to download a greater variety of files as well as greatly reduced speeds for the files that you can download, tends to turn me off. After all, the point of these file sharing programs is the opportunity to find and acquire files that one normally cannot (without paying a lot of money that is). So, for me, I suppose I'd only switch when there's better and more reliable software that's readily available. I mean, if you look at P2P history, there's better and newer programs and software that comes out all the time, which is greatly improved, such as the great changes from the time of Napster to current BitTorrent.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by shadoweave

Recently, the anime distributor in my country's been cracking down rather hard on anime downloaders and so on. Though this isn't really a problem for me, the fact that 2/3 of the ISPs in my country gave out customer information with hardly any pressure give credence to the fact that they might probably do so if some other company decided to do the same thing.

In Germany the so-called 'Abmahnwelle' (wave of warning letters) continues. There are a lot of lawyer's offices that scan the popular file-sharing networks for files they know are copyrighted. This is either done through connecting to the tracker and getting the seeder IPs or with custom tools when scanning ed2k. Then IPs are identified and associated to the popular providers (like Deutsche Telekom). Criminal complaints are filed by the offices, the providers hands out the IP data and in minor cases the attorney drops the case. Then the real fun begins. The lawyer office now send outs letters threatening the person to pay so huge amount of money to settle the case out of court. And now think about this office sending out 10.000 letters each day, each with a amount of say 400 euro - and there is not only one office but a growing number of it.

Originally Posted by shadoweave

However, to me, the problem with such next-gen file sharing systems is that, as you mentioned, they affect the whole nature of file sharing as a whole.

That's mostly because this networks are not really used by a lot of people.

Originally Posted by shadoweave

Granted, it gives you more protection, but the fact that you're not able to download a greater variety of files as well as greatly reduced speeds for the files that you can download, tends to turn me off.

First, it offers a LOT more protection. I should really emphasize this because the traditional file-sharing networks offer really zero protection. Everybody can do a global scan on the edonkey network to reveal the IPs seeding a file. The transport encryption of BT only affects port throttling in case the provider does such a thing. A person looking for IPs can always connect to the tracker to get them, even if he has to register to the tracker. There is really no protection at all.

The problem with the lower variety of files is a user problem. A lot of users still use the traditional file-sharing protocols. Now bridging a protected and a unprotected network isn't a good idea. It defeats the whole purpose of anonymity and technically it would also be hard. TOR has these exit-nodes but you would need a lot of exit-nodes to bridge the networks with acceptable performance. Also exit-nodes are always in danger because unencrypted traffic is running through them, which can be monitored by the authorities. And if there are only a few exit-nodes it's even easier for them.
So the solution to the problem would be to switch completly to next-gen filesharing protocols.
This of course wouldn't solve the problem with the decreased download rates. But that's a problem by design (onion routing) and won't change in the future. It's a principle used by all protocols that provide anonymity. Now if everyone has SDSL (symmetric DSL) or cable the problem would be non-existant because the upload capability of the node is the limiting factor.

Originally Posted by shadoweave

After all, the point of these file sharing programs is the opportunity to find and acquire files that one normally cannot (without paying a lot of money that is).

ack

Originally Posted by shadoweave

So, for me, I suppose I'd only switch when there's better and more reliable software that's readily available. I mean, if you look at P2P history, there's better and newer programs and software that comes out all the time, which is greatly improved, such as the great changes from the time of Napster to current BitTorrent.

OK, but you also have to look at the downsides.
The file variety in Napster was gigantic. The edonkey network was also small at the beginning, but a lot of users switched over to it. But I suspect the file variety is lower than the Napster one.
Now BitTorrent isn't very good for old files. If you're searching for very rare stuff you go back to the other filesharing systems. Also BT needs his tracker (unless something like DHT is used), that's also a downside.
You see the development makes the protocols better but simultaneously you make some steps back.
I mean if you want 'better' filesharing protocols (whatever 'better' may mean for you) you still have to accept some disadvantages.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Hmm. I just realised that this seems to be in the wrong forum. Oh well. Anyway, on to the discussion. (I'm too lazy to do all the quoting you did, so I'd just answer chronologically)

1. The whole thing about the lawyer offices must really suck. But are they effective? I mean, do letters = fine? Is there any way of appeal or whatever? In my country, recently, users have been told not to pay by their lawyers as the company in question, Odex, did have rather shaky copyright grounds to base their "fine" upon. It was no small amount either. The average cost each letter they sent out demanded was 3000-5000 SGD, which is about 1.5k euros to 2.5k euros.

2. As you mentioned, these new networks are not used by a wide majority of people, and most people wouldn't switch until others do so. I suppose in a way, it's kind of like a vicious cycle. You can't have more people to attract others, if no one's willing to take the first step I suppose. Maybe it's people like you that will do so.

3. Yes. I did mention that there's a lot of protection. But at what cost? If I recall correctly, TOR works on the basis of routing traffic from one computer to another, from the origin to your computer. Like you mentioned, it's thus limited by the speed of the computers it routes towards, and as well as the amount of computers using the particular service. For me, I've never had a decent experience using the TOR browser, let alone any P2P via TOR, but maybe it's just me or the servers that I had to go through. Yet, once again, the problem here boils down to the number of users who adopt a particular service I guess. Also, one other possible problem I can think of is that TOR itself does not mask traffic flow, but merely redirects traffic flow. So, what would happen if your traffic flow passes through someone else's computer, and that person just happens to have strict laws against filesharing in his country? Would you unnecessarily implicate someone? Maybe I'm wrong as to how the TOR system works, but from what I know, that might very well happen

4. I guess it's true, what you say, that there's no real "perfect" filesharing protocol, so it depends largely on the user as to what he or she is searching for. But I think it's hard to find someone who is willing to wait a month just to download some old movie? Then again, I think it boils down to a lack of users once again for the protocol. After all, like you and I mentioned, the number of users would thus determine number of files, and speed of downloads.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

First I want to add some additional networks I did find useful to mention:
- GNUnet
- StealthNet

GNUnet doesn't seem to work for me. Even after setting everything up, forwarding port on my router and letting the client communicate for a couple of hours I wasn't able to find something on the net.
Hell, not even porn was available!

StealthNet is a .NET application, and it works through Mono on Linux. A small application and I'm currently testing it.

And I also managed to get I2P to work.

Originally Posted by shadoweave

Hmm. I just realised that this seems to be in the wrong forum. Oh well. Anyway, on to the discussion. (I'm too lazy to do all the quoting you did, so I'd just answer chronologically)

I put it here because it's the "Hardware and Networking Zone". I mean if P2P is not about network, then what is it??

Originally Posted by shadoweave

1. The whole thing about the lawyer offices must really suck. But are they effective? I mean, do letters = fine? Is there any way of appeal or whatever? In my country, recently, users have been told not to pay by their lawyers as the company in question, Odex, did have rather shaky copyright grounds to base their "fine" upon. It was no small amount either. The average cost each letter they sent out demanded was 3000-5000 SGD, which is about 1.5k euros to 2.5k euros.

The main problem is that most people are afraid of the consequences they read in the threating letters, so they pay. Even if they've done nothing wrong.

Originally Posted by shadoweave

2. As you mentioned, these new networks are not used by a wide majority of people, and most people wouldn't switch until others do so. I suppose in a way, it's kind of like a vicious cycle. You can't have more people to attract others, if no one's willing to take the first step I suppose. Maybe it's people like you that will do so.

I think most people are going to think about switching if legal actions become 'popular' in their countries. I know a lot of german P2P users that are about to switch.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I think what he meant is that a lot of this is software based and the networking aspect is often more thought of physical network hardware and what not. However, we rarely have network threads so whatever scope this forum holds is really unreliable. Do go on with any more you find out since this does interest me.

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