Suspect in police chase likely to face charges for deaths in news copter collision

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/27/hel...ash/index.html

Quote:

The police chief said the suspect will likely face criminal charges for the deaths in the helicopter crash.

"I think he will be held responsible for any of the deaths from this tragedy," Harris said.

Yet, earlier in the same article:

Quote:

"Typically air traffic controllers clear helicopters into an area where they can cover a chase like this," Gregor told AP. "Once they are in the area, the pilots themselves are responsible for keeping themselves separated from other aircraft."

I would've understood if, say, police officers died during the chase, but holding the suspect responsible for reporter casualties?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Threatening criminal charges here is just a reaction to being pissed off that innocent people died, but there's no way the fugitive can legally be held accountable for those deaths. Technically he may have been the catalyst of the events, but it's not his fault that the pilots didn't organise their air traffic properly. He didn't directly influence them in any way.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

As fucked up as this is, the pilots are responsible for their aircraft. I know that people are excited to see a STOLEN TRUCK WITH A TRALER on TV but that's really not grounds for taking your eyes off the sky; just like it's not acceptable to cause a wreck for talking on a cell phone.

My condolances, in any case. Now I'm wondering which pilot was the cause of the crash.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by 343 Guilty Spark

My condolances, in any case. Now I'm wondering which pilot was the cause of the crash.

Quote:

In the moments before the crash, the pilot from KNXV-TV (Channel 15), Craig Smith, was on the radio with the pilot from KTVK-TV (Channel 3).

The inherent danger and periodic confusion of covering a police chase was clear even though you could only hear one side of the radio transmission.

Pilot Craig Smith is heard asking his photographer and talking to the pilot of Channel 3.

"Where's 3?"

"How far? Oh, jeez."

"3, I'm right over you. 15 on top of you."

"I'm over the top of you."

Basically, I don't think a single pilot was at fault. It must be fucking stressful and confusing for three or more helicopters to fly in close proximity while covering a chase, so frankly it's impressive that such tragedies don't occur more often.

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They interviewed a guy who said it looked like they got too close and then just got sucked into each other real quick. Yikes. :\

In a way, it is similar to if a police car hit another civilian's car during the chase and the civilian died. The victim would have had no direct connection to the guy being chased, and in that sense, I think they could charge them.

Consider it this way: what if the reporter was in the back of a police car during the chase, and the police car flipped and the reporter died? The fact that the reporters were covering criminal news that put them in harm's way may make the suspect liable.

It's a stretch, but I could see it happening.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by BlueMikey

In a way, it is similar to if a police car hit another civilian's car during the chase and the civilian died. The victim would have had no direct connection to the guy being chased, and in that sense, I think they could charge them.

Uhhhh, what? The driver of the police car would be 100% liable in this case, no question about it. Being in pursuit does not give police officers a licence to mow down civilians and shift the blame on the fugitive. Or am I mistunderstanding what you said?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Maybe not in other places, but in the USA, they would never charge the cop for that. The suspect would get stung on it.

How ya doing, buddy?

If that's true, it's beyond all logic. The idea that you can legally get charged for a crime that someone else commits... Man that's fucked up.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I don't see how they could possibly charge him with those deaths. The cars were in a situation that, although fast, were within the grasp of their respective controls. Two helicopter pilots far out of the way "reporting" on that car chase is far from the grasp of control of either the police OR the criminal.

Screw that criminal for putting everyone in that situation, anyway. I do NOT want him to "get away with it" because of a potential media backlash of questionable charges.

Anyway, my 2 cents

Jam it back in, in the dark.

From your first paragraph it seems that you think he cannot be charged as the events were out of his reasonable control, but in the second paragraph you talk about him not being charged because of a potential media backlash. I'm confused here, what exactly do you think should happen? Should he be charged with those deaths or not?

How ya doing, buddy?

Those pilots were 100% at fault for what happened.

This dude should not be charged with their deaths. They didn't have to crash into each other, after all.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

As much as I agree that he should not be charged, the way it works now days is that you're guilty until convicted or proven innocent. Sucks for the family of the pilots and reporters though.

I just hope some sort of sane resolution comes of this. Perhaps we'll be less likely to watch police chases, as 90% of the time I estimate, its mearly done to draw in viewers who might otherwise turn the channel. The populace's bloodlust for car chases is also to blame, but not as much as the Pilot's errors.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by BlueMikey

Maybe not in other places, but in the USA, they would never charge the cop for that. The suspect would get stung on it.

Wait, wait, WAIT. Since when is it common practice in the States to charge criminals for tertiary crimes? Damn, Mikey... It's bad enough you Arizona fuckers don't stick with the time zone changes but now you pin crimes on quasi-innocent drivers? You guys got something against the rest of the world or what?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Aardark

Uhhhh, what? The driver of the police car would be 100% liable in this case, no question about it. Being in pursuit does not give police officers a licence to mow down civilians and shift the blame on the fugitive. Or am I mistunderstanding what you said?

It pretty much depends. If he's been in a "high speed pursuit" , it might depend on how careful and cautious he's been driven (i.e. was it 'necessary'). Of course, if you go at 100 mph (up to top speed) in a city with houses and gas stations, it's pretty obvious that the driver would be 100% liable, but you cannot over-simplify that at all.

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I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I don't know how likely a case could be, but I'm not saying you can't write it off simply because he didn't directly harm them, direct harm isn't necessary for a crime to be committed.

Originally Posted by Aardark

If that's true, it's beyond all logic. The idea that you can legally get charged for a crime that someone else commits... Man that's fucked up.

Except it wasn't a crime, it was an accident. A number of things had to happen for the accident to not occur, but, certainly, one of them was the guy committing the other crime.

Originally Posted by 343 Guilty Spark

Wait, wait, WAIT. Since when is it common practice in the States to charge criminals for tertiary crimes?

What about the crime of reckless endangerment? By fleeing like he did, the suspect put the cops, everyone on the streets, and every reporter covering the story in harm's way.

FELIPE NO

I just can't see him getting charged on this one. I mean, he was not in control of the vehicles that crashed.

While I do give my condolences to the families involved, and can understand the anger involved with the situation, the fault is of the individual(s) who controlled the helicopter(s).

I mean, suppose Paris Hilton and Bill Gates were seen running off to a hotel together (I know, stupid example, but just go with me here). And suppose two reporters wanted to follow via helicopter to cover the story and this same situation happened. Would it be Gates' and Hilton's fault? Absolutely not. It would be the pilot's because they were in control of the vehicle.

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Originally Posted by mortis

Paris Hilton and Bill Gates were seen running off to a hotel together

Well, that's not illegal, so it wouldn't exactly be the same situation, you know?

How ya doing, buddy?

Perhaps he was doing something, like trying to signal the helicopters? That could have distracted the pilots enough to cause a collision.

Of course it doesn't say anything about that in the article, but the details are pretty scant.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Quote:

I don't know how likely a case could be, but I'm not saying you can't write it off simply because he didn't directly harm them, direct harm isn't necessary for a crime to be committed.

That tends to be if you can demonstrate that the negligence of the one being charged led to the death. This guy's negligence can't be tied to the helicopter accident because they're incidental. It's not like leaving a pile of logs unsecured and then later it JUST SO HAPPENS to roll over somebody.

Besides, if somebody was charged in such a case, there's no way it would hold up in a court of law, and even if it did, it could easily make it through appeals.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by BlueMikey

What about the crime of reckless endangerment? By fleeing like he did, the suspect put the cops, everyone on the streets, and every reporter covering the story in harm's way.

Of course you could argue the retarded police practice of LET'S CHASE THEM THROUGH CROWDED STREETS for every goddamn thing is pretty reckless too. Stealing a car does not inherently endanger anyone. Let them steal the fucking thing! There are multiple ways of tracing stolen vehicles without chasing them down the highway so you can be a hero.

Running away when a cop chases you is already a crime, it's called resisting arrest. Charge him for that. If you want to know who made the event worth covering on the news, you need to look at who made it into a OMG CHASE! and not just yet another stolen vehicle out of millions.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

A guy on a local forum I visit pulled the felony murder statute (bold section can just be read as a sentence, pretty much):

Quote:

A. A person commits first degree murder if:
2. Acting either alone or with one or more other persons the person commits or attempts to commit sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault under section 13-1406, molestation of a child under section 13-1410, terrorism under section 13-2308.01, marijuana offenses under section 13-3405, subsection A, paragraph 4, dangerous drug offenses under section 13-3407, subsection A, paragraphs 4 and 7, narcotics offenses under section 13-3408, subsection A, paragraph 7 that equal or exceed the statutory threshold amount for each offense or combination of offenses, involving or using minors in drug offenses under section 13-3409, kidnapping under section 13-1304, burglary under section 13-1506, 13-1507 or 13-1508, arson under section 13-1703 or 13-1704, robbery under section 13-1902, 13-1903 or 13-1904, escape under section 13-2503 or 13-2504, child abuse under section 13-3623, subsection A, paragraph 1, or unlawful flight from a pursuing law enforcement vehicle under section 28-622.01 and in the course of and in furtherance of the offense or immediate flight from the offense, the person or another person causes the death of any person.

How do you determine "cause"? Would they have crashed their helicopters if the pilots had flown properly? Probably not. Would they have crashed their helicopters if he wasn't fleeing from police? Unequivocally: no.

And note the very last part: "the person or another person causes the death of any person." Another person could be the pilot(s) at fault.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

That tends to be if you can demonstrate that the negligence of the one being charged led to the death. This guy's negligence can't be tied to the helicopter accident because they're incidental.

And, sure, that's the defense. Like I said, devil's advocate. All I'm saying is that it isn't air-tight enough for the AG to not consider it.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Aardark

Well, that's not illegal, so it wouldn't exactly be the same situation, you know?

From the police's perspective it wouldn't be. But it can be argued that these situations are equivalent to the press; they're both titillating scoops. Reporters don't have a pressing legal duty, so to speak, to chase after suspects.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I think it would be a joke if they were to try to charge hat guy for there deaths. If your going to fly a chopper in order to follow along with a chase you better also be looking for any other choppers, trees, power polls, or what not. Say you lose a $5 bill and it blows into the street and somebody runs out to try to take it, but gets hit by a car and getting blamed for it because it was your money which caused the guy to run out into the street.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Of course you could argue the retarded police practice of LET'S CHASE THEM THROUGH CROWDED STREETS for every goddamn thing is pretty reckless too. Stealing a car does not inherently endanger anyone. Let them steal the fucking thing! There are multiple ways of tracing stolen vehicles without chasing them down the highway so you can be a hero.

Running away when a cop chases you is already a crime, it's called resisting arrest. Charge him for that. If you want to know who made the event worth covering on the news, you need to look at who made it into a OMG CHASE! and not just yet another stolen vehicle out of millions.

It was always my notion that the pursuit of fleeing criminals was to apprehend them sooner. If you simply track a stolen car and wait until it stops somewhere, that doesn't mean that police will be on the scene. And, while some criminals are dumb, some of them are also smart. They know that they can be tracked. But if there are no police there to apprehend them when they get out of the vehicle, that leaves the criminal open to capitalize on their situation, perhaps by creating undesirable scenarios like hostage situations and potentially murder. Or more common, they just might get away.


In the case of the helicopter crashes, I doubt that the criminal will be charged with the deaths of the pilots. They placed themselves in a potentially dangerous situation willingly, and through their fault alone they collided. The criminal had no responsibility for the safety of the helicopter crews, and it was not those crews' government mandated duty to be where they were, when they were. If it were a police chopper, it'd be different.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Guru

They placed themselves in a potentially dangerous situation willingly, and through their fault alone they collided.

Sort of, the news media has always had different standards when it comes to putting themselves in harm's way. If I remember correctly, sometimes (often?) reporting the news is seen as much of a duty as the police apprehending the guy.

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