Chudah's Corner Closes; GFA Blamed [Update: CC is back up; more talks in progress]

(Wow, good posts people. Sounds like it can be resolved, at least.)

In light of Chudah's decision, I wonder what you folks think of the following proposition:

Should GFA shut down because Galbadia Hotel has leeched most of its' rippers music, and scans?

My vote is yes, because I've foregone getting my wife pregnant to work hard bringing the community high-quality game rips, and now THOSE BASTARDS over at FFShrine..

(You get the deal I hope.)

- Spike

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Kanji

Course, I was a little bit disturbed to see that GFA used stuff from CC without permission. I was under the impression that it was all scanned/translated with the hard work of the staff, really. But I'd rather not dwell on this; apologies/explanations have already been made (at STC), so there's no need to twist the knife.

Everyone has expended real effort on this one way or another, so it's discouraging to see other people dismiss our work as wholesale cut and paste. All the tracklists I've uploaded are my own translations -- even if there was an existing translation available I'd re-translate it. I'm doing this because I'm insane I enjoy it, not because I have something to prove.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

That's exactly the point: Bigblah could be said to be involved in GFA for love of VGM, in the interest of the music itself because it's a passion of his.

Didn't CC have some tagline about "promoting appreciation of game music" or something to that effect? I suppose it should have read "Promoting appreciation of game music insofar as it nets this site's owner fame and fortune in all the lands of the internets."

Seriously, either you're in it for love of the game, so to speak (GFA, anonymous crackers/warez groups) or you're in it for the recognition and ego trip (CC, groups like DEViANCE, Razor1911, Fairlight).

I do love the kids pretending to be anime superheroes in the CC forums, though. Like...

Quote:

KUSOOOOOOOO! *punches a nearby wall so hard it crumbles to dust* GODDAMMIT ALL! Why the hell did this have ta happen!? If this site shuts down, one of my favorite sites of all on the web will be lost!

I'll never forgive whoever did this...THEY'RE DEAD!!!!!!!!!

Because acts of homicide always make everything better. And it's worth risking felony charges to defend a website. Or was he not serious?

Oh, wait--INTERNET IS SERIOUS BIZNESS.

EDIT: I do want to clarify, though, in case I came across as a touch caustic: I would like to see the situation resolved amicably. CC is a fine resource, albeit one I use less freuqently than others, and the work put into the site was obviously no trivial matter. That said, I think Chudah is making a mountain out of what should by all rights be a molehill and this entire fiasco could have been avoided had people at STC not let their tempers flare. If there's anything I can do to help GFA in the way of scanning, compiling tracklists, etc. I'd be more than happy to take the job.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

This is very unfortunate. I've always respected the work put in for Chudah's Corner from when I first stumbled on it years and years ago. So if CC does really close, it will indeed be sorely missed for its meticulous database and reviews. Hopefully, any misunderstandings and conflicts can be resolved amicably.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I wasn't targeting Chudah. I'm saying that everyone's making far too many assumptions -- saying that Chudah is running CC only for self-promotion is akin to saying that GFA is purely a rip-off. However the fact is that the terms were fully spelled out on her site, we infringed upon that regardless of the circumstances, and we're now working towards a solution that'll make everyone happy.

There's no need to make judgements on her character or motivations based on a single outburst. Chill, guys.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Ech, I was afraid of sounding like I was coming down too hard on her. Sounds like I did anyway. Sorry about that, Blah.

The way I see it, though, is that yes, she does have the right to set whatever terms of use she wishes for her scans and database. However, in my mind it calls into question her intentions when there's so militant a movement based on appropriation by a purely noncommercial and well-meaning effort, doubly so when that appropriation may well have been an honest mistake.

I think we're all a little shaken up by the way Chudah and company (though it seems that the real rabble-rousing was carried out by that Zane fellow) came in with guns blazing and sabers waving. Chudah even said herself once that "there's been no contact yet" between herself and Blah or Squirrel. I'd think that there would first be some kind of heads-up--a polite notification that "Hey, you're using my stuff, what's the deal? If it's not just a temporary placeholder, how about some credit?"

I just get the nagging suspicion that someone, somewhere (not necessarily Chudah, though I won't rule it out) wanted drama to come out of this. I mean, it's not as though trade secrets worth millions of dollars are being exposed here, and one needs only browse the animemusicvideos.org forums to see how anime fans have a tendency to overreact (that was a stretch, I know, but I'm thinking back to KUUUUSSOOOOOOOO guy), so I get the sense of something a bit...unnatural going on.

Blah, Squirrel, and Chudah all have my unwavering support though. If there's going to be a resolution to the problem, I want one that puts VGM first and individual forums/sites/indexes(indices?)/databases second. I fear this leading to people losing sight of the goal of GFA and CC--promotion of the appreciation of game music. I don't think it's that much of a problem around GFF, but I know better than to trivialize the risk.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Dr. Uzuki

Either this is saying nothing or everything.

I personally don't want it to mean anything. It's just me putting it in my own perspective.

In the end, it's just a silly little Internet spat. I'm sure that everyone who should be involved (GFA Staff, Chudah Staff, and no one else, looking at Zane right about now,) with working out this discrepancy can be level-headed enough to get something worked out.

To have this spiral out of control would be the dumbest thing ever, and everyone should realize that.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

I personally don't want it to mean anything. It's just me putting it in my own perspective.

In the end, it's just a silly little Internet spat. I'm sure that everyone who should be involved (GFA Staff, Chudah Staff, and no one else, looking at Zane right about now,) with working out this discrepancy can be level-headed enough to get something worked out.

I agree with you fully that it's something that the staff of both sites should get their heads together and everyone else needs to basically stay out. It's no business of mine, or any other random user of this site. It wasn't our work, and we don't have a stake in this.

However, just as a point of fact, it's been stated that Zane is a member of staff at Chudah's Corner, so he sort of does have a stake. I don't really like the way he approached this, but I can't deny that he's involved.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Yeah, for anything to get any further out of hand is helping nothing, but I dunno. It's not my actions to take, but from where I'm sitting, righting the situation should not involve pandering or walking on eggshells. Taking down the site and alerting the media was a jump of the gun and only served to bring people like Zane to the forefront, creating animosity. Anyone who's said so has gotten the whole, "How dare you," routine from Chudah. Identify the lifted material, take it down, offer apologies (which I'm sure has already happened), make it understood among GFA staff that this stuff isn't kosher.

I just hope it's done in a dignified manner that doesn't hold up Chudah as a bruised victim and GFA as a bunch of douches just to come to a resolution.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I spent a couple of hours talking with Chudah tonight, and the situation is essentially resolved.

One thing to keep in mind: the information is not what's important -- it's the experts, those who have built up a knowlege of game music and share it through buying new albums, ripping, translating, scanning, and promoting game music positively in the community. This is what must be fostered. Someone could come and steal our entire database, code and all, and set up shop somewhere, and it wouldn't matter, because we're the experts.

This recent situation is ironically turning into a catalyst that will finally bring several disparate (and sometimes disagreeing) segments of the VGM community together to work on something that will be much better than any of us could have done on our own. Obviously, there are some things to be worked out, so I'd like to ask everyone to be patient and keep an open mind.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Glad to hear it, Secret Squirrel. A huge thanks to you for being so mature about the whole situation, 'cause it's gotten us at a nice resolution, here. Exciting to hear of the new-found ideas, too.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

I spent a couple of hours talking with Chudah tonight, and the situation is essentially resolved.

one can only hope part of this resolution involes this zane fellow taking a very long walk off an extremely short bridge

it is FOR THE BEST

Cheers on the rest though. Hopefully GFF will stay alive long enough to see GFA come out of just being a beta.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Why all this concern over someone, somewhere on the internet getting mad? If Chudah was blowing this all out of proportion, why bother placating at all? I have to assume this is a PR thing as much as anything else, because it'd be silly to feel responsible for someone else mistakenly feeling slighted.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Why all this concern over someone, somewhere on the internet getting mad? If Chudah was blowing this all out of proportion, why bother placating at all? I have to assume this is a PR thing as much as anything else, because it'd be silly to feel responsible for someone else mistakenly feeling slighted.

Because it's still an important part of the game music community. Ignoring an issue like this would only cause separate "factions" inside the Internet world, creative a rupture within the community itself. Like I said, I never thought that Chudah honestly was self-centered, after the amount of music the released to the community.

There will always be people who hate GFF, or vice versa. But seriously, we just have to ignore all of the other flaming idiots on the internet. There's a difference between what can be solvable, and what can't, and preventing asshats like Zane won't really do anything.

FELIPE NO

I don't think it's fair for those who have little conception of how difficult it is to run a site as large and demanding as Chudah's Corner to condemn the actions of Zane and Chudah. I can empathise with their distress and anger quite strongly from my personal experiences. Their actions, though extreme, are understandable given the circumstances.

That said, I'm not antagonistic towards any party on this debate. I just wish people would be more sensitive and thoughtful before making cruel judgements. I'm referring more to SoundtrackCentral, but some comments here were unnecessary too. I am very glad issues are being resolved.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by CelticWhisper

If there's going to be a resolution to the problem, I want one that puts VGM first and individual forums/sites/indexes(indices?)/databases second.

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

This recent situation is ironically turning into a catalyst that will finally bring several disparate (and sometimes disagreeing) segments of the VGM community together to work on something that will be much better than any of us could have done on our own.

Now that's what I'm talking about. Rock on, Squirrel.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Chudah's Corner is back up!

I guess there's hope for this "internet" thing after all.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Just goes to show what simple discussion between civil parties can accomplish. on SS.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

What I'm still not getting is why Chudah would close CC in the first place. She didn't give any reasons whatsoever in her first announcement and later sounded like it was too much of a burden what with all her private life and so on.

From what I gathered at CC and STC, Zane was the first person who jumped in with this GFA hate tirade, starting the whole pointless bandwagon that Chudah herself would eventually hop on.

I'm under the impression that the whole GFA affair was not the main reason for Chudah to close her site in the first place, but it became a welcome excuse and reasoning when the drama unfolded later on.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

The most fascinating piece of information I've picked up here is that Chudah, who I've heard of for what seems like years, is female. Glad to see things are headed in a positive direction though; and that Chudah isn't a jackass like some of her representatives in this thing.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Mr. X

I just wish people would be more sensitive and thoughtful before making cruel judgements. I'm referring more to SoundtrackCentral, but some comments here were unnecessary too.

Understand that 99% of the harsh comments here were retaliatory. The vast majority of VGM fans here have been nothing but supportive of both Chudah's Corner and STC. There's a healthy respect for the vast collections of information that each site brings to the table.

So imagine our shock when many of us learned that our own site was being blamed for CC's closing. Nobody argued the reasoning; Chudah deserves full credit. But the slanderous methods that were used to rally people against GFA, that was bound to create some stiff resentment. Can you sincerely blame any of us for wishing to defend ourselves, or for becoming upset at a few individuals' scurrilous remarks?

Thankfully, most people here, especially those in control of things, are capable of maintaining their composure. Secret Squirrel is as excellent a diplomat as anyone could ever wish and Bigblah's dependability is unrivaled. I'm certain that if they weren't the ones in charge, this whole situation could've become much messier.

Still, when people start casting stones, expect a few to be cast in return.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Yes, I realize most negative comments here were retaliatory both to Zane's comments and the somewhat unfair accusation. However there were comments both here and, much more significantly, SoundtrackCentral that were hostile for the sake of it and showed little understanding about the difficulties of running a site. After Zane made such offensive and unnecessary generalisations, I understand why people would want to retaliate. However, about the illegal downloading comment, I could understand why he would feel threatened by a possible 'alternative' to his site (which has always been purchase, purchase, purchase) hosted on a forum with a focus on sharing in large quantities. Given I know Secret Squirrel, Seanne, CHz, and probably many others involved in the project buy great quantities of VGM and it's been previously indicated that there won't be many downloads on GFA, perhaps this isn't so much of an issue. Personally, I don't care either way; legitimacy would be lovely but I'd also love something to take Galbadia Hotel down. Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Mr. X

However, about the illegal downloading comment, I could understand why he would feel threatened by a possible 'alternative' to his site (which has always been purchase, purchase, purchase)

Another reason why I love GFF so much--it's laissez-faire perspective on piracy. It's bugged me for a very long time how a lot of fans of Japanese pop culture (I hate to sound like I'm ragging too hard on anime fans but this issue seems to have stirred my memory) are frothing-at-the-mouth crazy about piracy, to the point that they take personal offense whenever someone, somewhere downloads an anime episode or an MP3. Again, see animemusicvideos.org.

I mean, I've spent easily $1000 on game soundtracks alone, and that should be more than enough to show my commitment to supporting the industry. So god dammit, I'm going to download if I see fit: 9 times out of 10 I buy the soundtrack anyway and the other 1 time I delete the MP3s as they weren't any good.

Honestly, kiddies, the industry has its packs of rabid lawyers for things like bootlegs and downloading. They don't need a bunch of whiny teenagers playing sycophant and thinking it's going to do any good.

The issue of bootlegs I understand and can somewhat sympathize with. I personally own more than a few (which were money on top of the $1000 I've blown on legitimate copies) and it doesn't bother me at all. However, for those who insist on owning 100% official moychandise, the super-duper-look-a-like pirate versions can be very confounding.

Yeah, I love VGM and want to see the creators make piles of cash as much as any other fan. Thinking there's any way to stop people from downloading in the age of prolific broadband and readily accessible P2P/FTP/Usenet services, however, is plain lunacy. If you want the fandom to be a "self-policing community," then do me a favour and police yourself. Trust others to do the same. If they (we (I)) don't, it's not your fault and you needn't lose sleep over it. I'm getting very tired of being called a dreg of humanity for firing up my Direct Connect client, doubly so when it's often because I have a spare $50 burning a hole in my pocket and want to sample some VGM to decide what to BUY.

Man, this went way offtopic. Sorry again, but I guess I can say it's related due to Chudah's policy of promoting 100% legal acquisitions on her site. In and of itself, that's great, and $DEITY knows I've seen far, far worse than Chudah--she's actually quite level-headed in this respect by comparison to the animemusicvideos.org psychos, but what can I say? Never rub another VGM nerd's rhubarb, I guess.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by arch_slayer

That is why I feel that Chudah's Corner should really be proud about their database. Honestly, if Gamingforce accidentally uses the same tracklist info and a few scans, I would be proud, because it would mean that my information has spread to the rest of the community. It is arrogant and somewhat demoralizing to have to keep a single database and assume that the database will be the only one that exists, and I don't believe that Chudah seriously thinks that way.

I would certainly hope not! As much as I love Chudah's Corner and use it a lot, there always seems to be albums I need info for that aren't in it's database. Personally, we need as many of these databases as we can get...

That said, I only just now found out about this topic and it doesn't seem much like an issue to me. Really, once something hits the web it's free game in this day and age, though perhaps it shouldn't be, but that's the way it is for most people. Oh well, hopefully Chudah and those here can come to an understanding, it's not like the whole layout and content was stolen. Really, why rescan something if you can easily get it off the web and it would be the same thing anyway? That said, getting permission wouldn't hurt either.

As for those on STC, I can understand being pissed that Chudah decided to shut down, but still, they would do better to get over the drama and find a solution that would fix the issue not exacerbate it. Anyway, the people over there have always been great when I posted, but some need to get over themselves too!

Oh well, looks like Chudah's is up again. Good to know!

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Its a shame if CC does decide to close but I have a bitter taste from Chudah's Corner as I came to her with all kinds of ideas of building up a radio station for her, she told me no thank you and within a few days had announced a radio station for chudahs corner so obviously most people are just as bad as everyone else.

However if there's room for a large database to built of VGM releases I'm feeling quite hungry to construct one!

Si

There's nowhere I can't reach.