Is the Alliance Evil? (Firefly)

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That second part is awful and stupid though.

Indeed. Perhaps this needs to be explained to me, because the idea that a ship which could field as much power as an entire squadron of Star Destroyers would be rendered useless is Hella stupid.


Also, to Cyantre, read threads before you post in them. I know big words may make brain hurting, but there's something called context that threads follow along paths of conversation. The forums aren't just a medium for your stupid opinions, they're a vehicle for conversation.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Indeed. Perhaps this needs to be explained to me, because the idea that a ship which could field as much power as an entire squadron of Star Destroyers would be rendered useless is Hella stupid.

It wasn't rendered useless. It was used as a high security prison and an emergency escape vehicle for the Emperor.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Majin yami

It was used as a high security prison and an emergency escape vehicle for the Emperor.

Whenever I need to escape, I go to a prison too!

"This battle is going awful! How are we going to escape?"
"I know! Lets get into our 12 mile long ship thats been converted into a prison and fly off into space!"

WHAT. WHAT. WHAT.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Nevermind, either, that a vessel of that size requires an immense support structure. When your last hope of escape could possibly be scrapped within a week, what's the point of drawing so much attention to oneself?

Also the prisoners.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Nevermind, either, that a vessel of that size requires an immense support structure. When your last hope of escape could possibly be scrapped within a week, what's the point of drawing so much attention to oneself?

Aside from the fact that the gravity of the planet probably wouldn't allow the ship to take off.

And that how the FUCK would you manuever a 12 mile ship through an entire planet that makes the set of Blade Runner look like the suburbs?

FELIPE NO

It was mounted on repulsorlift sleds. And who said anything about manuevering? When it took off, it took a load of Coruscant with it. Since when did anyone know Palpatine to be concerned with collateral damage?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Majin Yami

It was mounted on repulsorlift sleds. And who said anything about manuevering? When it took off, it took a load of Coruscant with it. Since when did anyone know Palpatine to be concerned with collateral damage?

Which doesn't change the fact that the idea of burying a 12-mile long battleship under a city to serve as a prison is ridiculous for a great many reasons.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Majin yami

Since when did anyone know Palpatine to be concerned with collateral damage?

Palpatine forced the Rendar Shipping Company to close and sell all it's assets after one of it's pilots smashed into Imperial Center.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm not even going to bother with you LeHah. I'm just going to report every message that I feel merits being reported. The topic was getting back to normal, but you had to go back and troll some more.

To Lord Styphon: Way to take things out of context. I was being attacked for not agreeing with LeHah's opinion. So in reponse I tried to post something a little on the lighter side to make things a little less tense. After all, it's just a TV show and the emotion at the end of the sentence indicated humor. Obviously it's something many of you are without.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Cyantre

I'm not even going to bother with you LeHah. I'm just going to report every message that I feel merits being reported. The topic was getting back to normal, but you had to go back and troll some more.

What you're going to do is stop abusing the Report function to in an effort to get us to clean up a mess you made.

You've had two moderators tell you that you were at fault for the grief you caught because you came into this thread acting like a fuckstick. Now be a good little boy, just leave, and stop wasting everyone's time with your whining. Particularly Staff's.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

So being called a "fucking nigger pot" isn't harrassment? I don't care if you're an administrator or not. I did nothing wrong. I stayed on topic, but LeHah felt the need to attack my opinion and then insulted me repeatidly.

I was speaking idiomatically.

You butted into a discussion with inane prattle, then proceeded to act like an idiot. Being called a "fucking nigger pot" only came into play after it had started. You say you stayed on topic, but you feel the need to keep coming back, telling LeHah to go fuck himself and that you're reporting his posts. That's not really staying on topic.

Now, for the last time, you're started this shitfest by not reading the thread and the discussion that had been going on before. It's your fault. Now shut the fuck up and leave this thread. I don't want to see another word out of you here.

If you don't want to, it's been a while since I've banned someone for derailing a thread, like you've been doing.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I didn't say a single curse word to LeHah. I stayed as respectful as possible in the midst of the constant attacks. LeHah was the one who provoked additional response by myself, and still continued to attack me AFTER the topic did into further discussion by other users.

FELIPE NO

You're still derailing the thread with your whining. And after I said to leave the thread, too.

Now stop.

Most amazing jew boots

Who the hell are you? I don't care if you're an administrator or not. Are you blind? LeHah was the one who attacked me personally, and made several comments that were rude and uncalled for. The comments were not only insulting to me, but insulting to a large group of people as well. For someone who was previously arguing about how The Alliance is similar to the American Civil War, and then to call me a "fucking nigger pot"... Well come on now. LeHah continued to insults me and not even the slightest action has been taken. That's absurd.

The Alliance is evil. "What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done." - The Operative

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Styphon, as the creator of this thread, would it be too much to ask you to ban Cyantre for a day or two, so he has a chance to calm down?

EDIT; Thank you.

How ya doing, buddy?

Looks like Styphon gave me my birthday present a couple days early. Thanks.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by LeHah

Well, there you go. The Military experiments on River. Does some skunk ops represent the entire Alliance? Probably not - much like how a fireteam of soldiers does not represent most people in the United States.

No, but when the military force of a country/empire grows large enough, it starts to enforce other doctrines and acts as a symbol of that nation/empire's power and dominance. They are in part a way to let people know that they can fight you with a lot of force if necessary. They are, for lack of a better term, an Icon.

Compare the United States' Military Force in Iraq. Yes we are technically a democracy and not in a state of war, but our large force (Which I think is only outnumbered by the Chinese, correct me if I'm wrong) also acts as a way for the US to enforce thier foreign policy, in perspectives some would consider bad, while others would view it as good.

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Yes, the Alliance created Reavers. They did so by accident, mind you. It wasn't a grand evil experiment - the evil was that they tried to cover it up at all.

Every government in the world is guility of evil then. We all have our little secrets, from a single person to an entire government. Of course bad shit is going be covered up. It would be bad PR

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Your attempt to use Palpatine in your speech makes little or no sense. Can you be a bit more specific?

I was using Star Wars, and Palpatene in particular for an analogy. Palpatine came to power legally and enacted all sorts of restrictions and new laws in the name of ensuring peace in the galaxy, mostly from the 'betrayal' of the Jedi, and to take back the breakaway 'Confederate Star Systems'.

On the flip side, The Alliance created the reavers and as a side-effect boosted thier military force for 'protection' from them, and to hopefully bring back the outsiders into 'civilization'.

The main difference is that we see that Palpatine was intentional in creating the clones and instigating the huge Clone War for his own gain, while the Reaver creation was an accident.

However in both situations a larger military force was the outcome.

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Again - assumption. You can't say they're evil OR good because we don't know shit about the Alliance. They have a big military force and they don't like Mal or Zoe and they want River back and... thats about it. Theres no political commentary, no mention of who's in charge of the Alliance, no mention of territories or regions. Is the Alliance communist? A Republic? We don't know.

Political Commentary... actually I think there is, but its not outright given to the viewer... its somewhat implied. Consider the fact that they were working on River at all. This shows that in at least some way, the Alliance has uses for domination and using psychic agents to win against thier enemies, either Browncoats or Reavers. Obviously they want her back to continue whatever operations they were doing before.

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No, you mostly made sense. Its just that everything in it has been covered already in this thread.

I guess that's my fault for entring the thread late =\

--Edit--
I just thought of something, it might have been brought up... but uh... the "Hands of Blue" who are chasing River might be agents of a controlling force that might be in top positions of authority in the Alliance.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

No, but when the military force of a country/empire grows large enough, it starts to enforce other doctrines and acts as a symbol of that nation/empire's power and dominance.

When the military grows large enough to control the government, there is no more government to speak of. That is not the case with the Alliance as theres obviously a beaureaucratic part to it.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Compare the United States' Military Force in Iraq.

Congrats on making the worst generalization possible. The US Military Force has *nothing* to do with Iraq's situation. The Bush Administration are the ones that had the military deployed; otherwise you'd have another scenario like when Douglas MacArthur was removed from his position following his crossing the 38th parallel.

The President is in charge of the military, despite what the pressing droves of college students would lead one to believe.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Every government in the world is guility of evil then.

Making snide remarks to undermine my point only make you look like an ass. If Bill Clinton came out to say he nailed some mildly attractive secretary or Nixon came out to say that he was a paranoid jerk - these moments would be much smaller, less known incidents in their otherwise respectable political careers. The fact that you can make sweeping, overt gestures about people everywhere and the history of not just our government but *every* government is about as stupid as it is vauge.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Palpatine came to power legally and enacted all sorts of restrictions and new laws in the name of ensuring peace in the galaxy, mostly from the 'betrayal' of the Jedi, and to take back the breakaway 'Confederate Star Systems'.

Well, keep in mind we're seeing this from beyond the fourth wall. *We* know that Palpatine is behind the CIS movement but no one else really does even by Episode III where most people are just really suspicious or very much dead.

What powers did Palpatine enact? We cannot say if his declairing the formation of the Galactic Empire anything more than grandstanding because we don't know what laws were effected when the Clone Wars started. We know *nothing* about the political situation in Star Wars aside from the fact that it's VERY thinly veiled analogy of the Bush Administration come Episode III. (Obi-Wan's bitching about how he serves democracy is just horribly silly given how long the galaxy has been at war by Episode III and how Kenobi has been directly serving the orders of the Supreme Chancellor for a number of years by now)

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

On the flip side, The Alliance created the reavers and as a side-effect boosted thier military force for 'protection' from them, and to hopefully bring back the outsiders into 'civilization'.

Thats speculation - and completely illogical at that. The lengths that you are reaching would be humorous in another situation. No military would create an enemy which they could not control - The Reavers are shown as insane people wearing skins of their victims. Add to this the fact that

1.) Reavers herald from a planet in which it was a colony, not a military station. The hologram we see on the station pretty much tells us outright that its an accident. In fact, 1 in 10 people were turned into Reavers - thats a minority of the people affected. It was obviously an accident and not an orchestrated event.

2.) The Alliance had just won a war a number of years back. I doubt they'd need another fight breaking out given that they were fighting for the stability of their borders.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

However in both situations a larger military force was the outcome.

You don't know anything about the Alliance's military force aside from *them having one*. There is no statement about a buildup of any military measure before, during or after the war with the Seperatists in Firefly. Stop saying things that have not happened.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Political Commentary... actually I think there is, but its not outright given to the viewer... its somewhat implied.

You cannot have political commentary in Firefly for two reasons

1.) It's "The American Civil War In Space". Joss Whedon all but says it repeatedly in the documentaries in the Firefly set. All these "political commentaries" were solved back when your great-great-great-grandfather was in diapers.

2.) You cannot have apt political commantary without the politics. It's never stated what form of government it is outside of an Anglo-Asian alliance. Anything beyond that is sterile conjecture at best.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

This shows that in at least some way, the Alliance has uses for domination and using psychic agents to win against thier enemies, either Browncoats or Reavers.

Yeah, I pay my soldiers to die, not to win!

River is a tricky topic. We're told she's an experiement - but not much else. She's psychic somehow, an amazing fighter, insane and has this secret locked in her head. In terms of logic, that really doesn't add up at all - in terms of story, it's cheap crapola.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Obviously they want her back to continue whatever operations they were doing before.

Well, if someone were to break into your house and steal some of your shit, wouldn't you want it back? The Alliance invested time and money and people into the project that River was a part of. Why shouldn't they go get her back? Because she's with the good guys? Thats illogical bullshit.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

I just thought of something, it might have been brought up... but uh... the "Hands of Blue" who are chasing River might be agents of a controlling force that might be in top positions of authority in the Alliance.

They also might have blue hands because they enjoy sitting on them a lot. Whats your point? You have nothing to support that idea aside from the idea it's self. It's rubbish.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LeHah

When the military grows large enough to control the government, there is no more government to speak of. That is not the case with the Alliance as theres obviously a beaureaucratic part to it.

I was just saying that the Military seemed to embody a sort of 'image' for part of the Alliance. When I said enforce other doctrines I meant that through the subversive tactics of foreign policy, they would expand the Government's 'influence' and Sphere of Cultral domination.

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The US Military Force has *nothing* to do with Iraq's situation.

Oh? Seems to be that the US Military's Forces, along with other colalition armies went into Iraq and removed a leader from power and set up a new government. The protection of the people as well as the elimination of the old regime's forces has been shown to be at least in part the Military's job, as a protection 'service' (For lack of a better word). If you're referring to the possible 'civil war' that has been predicted very recently, then you're correct.

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The Bush Administration are the ones that had the military deployed;

Well of course. Any President and thier administration are the ones who deploy the military.

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otherwise you'd have another scenario like when Douglas MacArthur was removed from his position following his crossing the 38th parallel.

.
Ahh yes, that was the lone actions of a General who stepped beyond his bounds, I see what you're saying.

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Making snide remarks to undermine my point only make you look like an ass.

You seem to have missed what I said, I'll reiterate:

You said: "the evil was that they tried to cover it up at all."
I replied: "Every government in the world is guility of evil then." I said that because every government has covered up stuff at one time or another, so since you said that it was evil of them to cover it up, I was saying that every government in the world could also be considered evil in that line of reasoning. I did not intend it to be a snide remark, moreso it was a response, or quip I guess *Shrug*

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The fact that you can make sweeping, overt gestures about people everywhere and the history of not just our government but *every* government is about as stupid as it is vauge.

Obviously I can't provide proof that every government has covered up things, but it seemed better to say that, versus "most governments", where someone would then say "Oh I see, so there are perfect governments out there huh? NOT!" or something like that. I was trying to avoid that argument.

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Well, keep in mind we're seeing this from beyond the fourth wall. *We* know that Palpatine is behind the CIS movement but no one else really does even by Episode III where most people are just really suspicious or very much dead.

True. I concede then.

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What powers did Palpatine enact? We cannot say if his declairing the formation of the Galactic Empire anything more than grandstanding because we don't know what laws were effected when the Clone Wars started.

This is a stretch, but Order 66 could be considered a war power

On a more serious note, as you said we can only conjecture from dialouge (Specifically when Pademe mentioned more 'sweeping changes' or 'sweeping war-time powers' something to that effect) what he did exactly, so I have no answer for you right now.

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We know *nothing* about the political situation in Star Wars aside from the fact that it's VERY thinly veiled analogy of the Bush Administration come Episode III. (Obi-Wan's bitching about how he serves democracy is just horribly silly given how long the galaxy has been at war by Episode III and how Kenobi has been directly serving the orders of the Supreme Chancellor for a number of years by now)

True. However we may learn more in the upcoming TV Series, which is set between Episode III and IV.

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It was obviously an accident and not an orchestrated event.

Ahhh... see that's what I was NOT inferring:

[quote = DN]
The main difference is that we see that Palpatine was intentional in creating the clones and instigating the huge Clone War for his own gain, while the Reaver creation was an accident.

However in both situations a larger military force was the outcome.[/quote]
I even said myself that the Reaver 'creation' was an accident.

However, I found the spot that probably caused the confusion:

Originally Posted by DN

The Alliance created the reavers and as a side-effect boosted thier military force for 'protection' from them, and to hopefully bring back the outsiders into 'civilization'.

.
I guess I should have said "created the reavers on accident'". The boosted military force was a guess on my part, so you're correct on that.

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You don't know anything about the Alliance's military force aside from *them having one*. There is no statement about a buildup of any military measure before, during or after the war with the Seperatists in Firefly.

As I just said, It was a guess/assumption on my part, so you win on that.

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You cannot have political commentary in Firefly for two reasons

Well I was talking about how the Experiments on River reflect a 'darker' policy, and yes the American Civil War is obvious. The Alliance are the Northern States and the Browncoats are the defeated Confederacy, yep.

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Yeah, I pay my soldiers to die, not to win!

That's not a good economic strategy

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River is a tricky topic. We're told she's an experiement - but not much else. She's psychic somehow, an amazing fighter, insane and has this secret locked in her head. In terms of logic, that really doesn't add up at all - in terms of story, it's cheap crapola.

I think the reason why it doesn't add up logically is that we're missing a vital piece of the story that might have been planned to be revealed later on. She seems to be central to the Alliance's more dubious endevours and may prove to play a large role should they ever continue on with the story.

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They also might have blue hands because they enjoy sitting on them a lot. Whats your point? You have nothing to support that idea aside from the idea it's self. It's rubbish.

I retract what I said. Apparently in one of the Comics (which are as Canon as the show and movie) they got killed off.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

I was just saying that the Military seemed to embody a sort of 'image' for part of the Alliance.

Because any normal government isn't going to send clowns, tax collectors and kewpie dolls to patrol their borders.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Oh? Seems to be that the US Military's Forces, along with other colalition armies went into Iraq and removed a leader from power and set up a new government.

...Under orders from their respective government officals. The military didn't act on it's own accord, they were given orders.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

The protection of the people as well as the elimination of the old regime's forces has been shown to be at least in part the Military's job, as a protection 'service' (For lack of a better word).

I don't see how acknowledging occupation does anything for this discussion.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Well of course. Any President and thier administration are the ones who deploy the military.

Then stop saying the military. There is *nothing* to support the idea that the Alliance is a purely militant body - *you're* just assuming it because thats all you see.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

I said that because every government has covered up stuff at one time or another, so since you said that it was evil of them to cover it up, I was saying that every government in the world could also be considered evil in that line of reasoning.

I'm not the one arguging if it was "Evil" - you were. I was stating that it's the government's perogative to cover things up. Now, there are many things that the government needs to keep secret as a matter of military and worldwide stability. However, blowjobs and lists of potential enemies is not one of them.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Obviously I can't provide proof that every government has covered up things

Then you should not have spoken.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

but it seemed better to say that, versus "most governments", where someone would then say "Oh I see, so there are perfect governments out there huh? NOT!" or something like that. I was trying to avoid that argument.

I would've hoped that by reading the rest of this thread - you'd have known no one here that isn't banned would've replied in that manner.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

This is a stretch, but Order 66 could be considered a war power

Thats a vauge but potentially good point. It was an order, more than a "war power", I'd say - because the order enacted a military movement of assassination. A "war power" would be something more like a proposal in a declared act like the Patriot Act, which allows us to detain "parties of interest" for indefinite amounts of time.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

On a more serious note, as you said we can only conjecture from dialouge (Specifically when Pademe mentioned more 'sweeping changes' or 'sweeping war-time powers' something to that effect) what he did exactly, so I have no answer for you right now.

And I hope you never do. The point of Star Wars is Joesph Campbell, not Alan Greenspan.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

True. However we may learn more in the upcoming TV Series, which is set between Episode III and IV.

Until then though - we don't know.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Well I was talking about how the Experiments on River reflect a 'darker' policy

Well, thats nothing new. Theres horrible experiments done by every government, I'm sure - look at "Gulf War Syndrome".

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

I think the reason why it doesn't add up logically is that we're missing a vital piece of the story that might have been planned to be revealed later on.

Ehhhhhhhhh. Right and wrong.

Yes, we're pissing parts - but then Joss Whedon shouldn't made it a point to shove 5 seasons worth of plot points into 2 hours time.

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

She seems to be central to the Alliance's more dubious endevours and may prove to play a large role should they ever continue on with the story.

I'm just going out on a limb here - but why does everyone say that River Tam is so important to the Alliance's endeavors? While I understand they'd want their investment back, a lot of people think that the Alliance would fall apart without one waif-thin girl.

FELIPE NO