Finishing up Firefly.

Originally Posted by Drex

That having been said, saying someone sucks at what he does because you don't like the premise is kinda sad.

Hey, I don't like baroque music at all but I can appreciate that Handel was a master composer. He composed things that revolutionized how music is written to this very day. Someone who says otherwise is an idiot.

And while I won't compare Whedon to Handel - I will say that someone who validates how they're feeling because they don't like it is a fucking moron.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Yeah, if they're looking for validation. Most emotion doesn't have a logical basis, though. I know plenty of people who say classical music sucks and then go out and listen to Britney Spears. While I think they're a bunch of complete morons, the fact remains that their opinion is logicless emotion (attached to supreme ignorance, but hey) and is valid as emotion.

Not valid as a point to make in argument, though.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Hah, I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right. I was stating why I didn't like Joss, nothing more. I wasn't trying to argue anything, simply stating an opinion. If I find something boring and uninteresting, I obviously don't enjoy it, ergo, why would I watch/do/read it? I wasn't even making an attempt to bring logic or a well-formed arguement into the equation. If I did, I wouldn't have used opinion as fact.

I'm not trying to convince all the massive hordes of Buffy fans that the show sucked. I'm simply saying to me the show sucked. Don't read too much into what I, or anyone else says...this is the internet...it's full of opinions. The "facts" are few and far between.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Drex

Yeah, if they're looking for validation. Most emotion doesn't have a logical basis, though. I know plenty of people who say classical music sucks and then go out and listen to Britney Spears. While I think they're a bunch of complete morons, the fact remains that their opinion is logicless emotion (attached to supreme ignorance, but hey) and is valid as emotion.

Not valid as a point to make in argument, though.

Well this kid did basically say something to the effect of "I watched like 10 minutes of some episode and didn't like it so now I think everyone involved in the creative process which brought about the show sucks." So you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with that example.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Drex

Yeah, if they're looking for validation.

If you make it a point to bring it to topic on the internet, the fact that you are voicing your opinion is looking for validation.

If you weren't, you'd keep it to yourself.

Originally Posted by Lord Jaroh

I wasn't trying to argue anything, simply stating an opinion.

I think you're a fucking queer little shit that should drive some nails into his forehead with a Black And Decker nailgun and then throw himself in front of a bus. But hey, thats just my opinion.

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Good for you, more power to you. Personally nailguns and busses happen to hurt, so that won't be happening anytime soon. And just to let you know, if I somehow managed to drive some nails into my forehead with a nailgun, I doubt that I'd be doing the bus diving routine, not to mention that I am neither queer, nor little (I may be full of shit some of the time, so that part I cannot discount)...so your opinion is based on an improbable situation. You should probably revise it.

FELIPE NO

I like all of Joss Whedon's shows. I would contribute more to this thread, but I'm not sure of this thread even had a point to it in the first place...

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Lord Jaroh

You should probably revise it.

Saying you are not queer is not unlike my saying I am asian. Neither are true just because we say so.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by russ

I really only watched the first two seasons of Angel, but I'm sure it happened there too.

It didn't. The reason why Angel is so loved is because it actually became more exciting and inventive as the show went on.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LeHah

Saying you are not queer is not unlike my saying I am asian. Neither are true just because we say so.

That's alright, you can keep your "me-as-a-fag" fantasies. I know that I'm ridiculously good looking, but really, I'm honestly not going to come over to your house. I prefer the female gender. But if you feel the need to jack off to me, go ahead. I don't fault you for your decision.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Lord Jaroh

That's alright, you can keep your "me-as-a-fag" fantasies. I know that I'm ridiculously good looking, but really, I'm honestly not going to come over to your house. I prefer the female gender. But if you feel the need to jack off to me, go ahead. I don't fault you for your decision.

For someone who demands to be known as heterosexual, you seem strangely expecting other men to jack off to you (or on you?).

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

My theory was always that the Firefly series was so great because it got cancelled before Whedon got a chance to do his usual evil deeds. So he squeezed all of them into the movie

Not that Serenity wasn't great, but the heavier tone made it a lot less enjoyable for me than the laid-back, more relaxed atmosphere with occasional serious moments of the TV series.

Either way a wonderful series, and while I would have loved to see more episodes, I'd rather see it end while it's so unbelievably good than to see it slowly decline into not so good.

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Originally Posted by LeHah

I also find the character of River Tam to be insultingly awful. You could not ask for a worse thing in a show than unnessessary exposition - and she was a literal embodiment of exposition. Instead of making a subtle or complex reason for the Alliance to chase Mal and company - they had to give a badly reasoned McGuffin in the form of an attractive female. Come on, you expect me to swallow that? Poor insane hot girl!, the internet cries. And given how badly written she was set-up as - once you find out what she's carrying in her head in the movie, it's just complete bullshit.

Bingo.

Also, she's not that hot.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I know a lot of people who think shes gorgeous but I like girls with a little more meat on them. Needless to say, Kaylee looked a lot better in the series than she did in the movie.

FELIPE NO

River was pretty 'sexed up' for the movie, I'll give her that.

As for the show in its entirety:
Hate Whedon or not, Firefly is one of the finest sci-fi TV shows to come around in years.
And cliched setups be damned! Give me a sexy girl under duress in a sci-fi setting over another doctor show where there's an ethical dilemma concerning ________ any day of the week.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Echo

Give me a sexy girl under duress in a sci-fi setting over another doctor show where there's an ethical dilemma concerning ________ any day of the week.

As much as I want to agree with you, I forced to disagree simply because I wouldn't want to trade one tired cliche for another tired cliche.

However if that girl were to be running around without a bra, a plunging v-necked top and be named Anna Paquin, I'd probably be shoving all you niggas aside to produce that show

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by LeHah

The law of diminishing returns can only apply to things that last. See, it's easy to say Frefly was greater than Item X, because Item X had a chance to suck. Firefly did not. People say the same thing about shows like Freaks And Geeks, Miracles, My So-Called Life, The Prisoner, Murder One, Wonderland, Freakazoid! and tons of other shows I can't think of. Shit, I bet you someone on the internet could convince people here that My Mother, The Car was a genius peice of television for it's "Hume-like qualities".

I have mixed feelings about Firefly myself. On one hand, it's cute and entertaining. I love the characters Jayne and Kaylee. There are a lot of elements that don't mesh, but thats bound to happen on a show that takes it's genre mix too literally (as opposed to the original Star Trek, which was literally pitched as Wagontrain To The Stars)

On the other hand, its fucking frustrating. The internet has attempted to tell me that this show was important and revolutionary when it's really nothing new except being a "horse opera in space" - quite literally. The things discussed in Firefly are no more important or relevant than those talked about in Battlestar Galactica - which is no more important or relevant than 90210, Dawson's Creek or Felicity. Abortion is no longer a tricky topic - but it is if it's in space!

Yes, Firefly has some cute dialouge but anyone who's seen Have Gun, Will Travel, The Rifleman or Maverick have seen these plots a couple times 40+ years ago.

I also find the character of River Tam to be insultingly awful. You could not ask for a worse thing in a show than unnessessary exposition - and she was a literal embodiment of exposition. Instead of making a subtle or complex reason for the Alliance to chase Mal and company - they had to give a badly reasoned McGuffin in the form of an attractive female. Come on, you expect me to swallow that? Poor insane hot girl!, the internet cries. And given how badly written she was set-up as - once you find out what she's carrying in her head in the movie, it's just complete bullshit.

I have problems with Serenity - mostly because of the changes between TV to film. The doctor goes from being this nice, meek guy to this angry jerk and 3 seasons worth of TV plot points are jammed down our throats in the span of 2 hours time. Sloppy, lazy bounds in logic in terms of writing (though I *loved* the villian in the movie) and some of the "shocking moments" (you know what I mean) were cheap - namely that of Book.

I have to say, this is the best post I've ever seen from you, LeHah. You took the words right out of my mouth.

But my fondness for Firefly runs a bit deeper than yours, I think. I loved the dialogue, and I didn't have much of a problem looking past some of the poorer choices to enjoy what was mostly fantastic interplay. It's just frustrating to see the show center around such an uninteresting and uninspired trope character.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

To me, Firefly was a great show. Not a revolutionary show, not an important show, just a great show. The problem arises when people try to put the show into categories. C'mon people, not every show ever made is gonna change the landscape of television as we know it, so sometimes you just have to enjoy stuff for what it is. Firefly, Buffy, and Angel all have their good points, and there are certainly worst programs to like out there, but do these shows really deserved to be put on a fucking pedestal?

I liked Firefly (even though I didn't discover it until DVD), but it's kinda hard to compare it even to Buffy and Angel. It only has fourteen episodes, so there's less of it to judge. We can say it could have been great, but no one really knows this. Just think if Buffy had been cancelled after one season, people might be saying the same thing, and while it would be partially true, we all know some of the later episodes (and in the case of season 6, entire seasons) really weren't that good, and a lot of them just plain sucked.

My point is that yeah, Firefly was a great show, and yeah, it probably deserves another chance, but even if it doesn't get one (which, do you honestly believe it will, especially after Serentity didn't fare to well at the box office?), just enjoy what we have now for what it is: A great show. And besides, at least the show got somewhat of a proper ending (I still think Objects in Space was a great way to end the show), which was expanded upon even further by a major motion picture. How many cancelled shows get to do that?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Here's a picture of me in a hat some of you may recognise:



Pretty cunning, dontcha think?

Jayne. The man they call Jayne...

He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.

Our Jayne saw the mudders' backs breakin'.
He saw the mudders'lament.
And he saw the Magistrate takin'
every dollar and leavin' five cents.
So he said "You can't do that to my people."
He said "You can't crush them under your heel."
So Jayne strapped on his hat
and in 5 seconds flat
stole everythin' Boss Higgins had to steal.

He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.

Now here is what separates heroes
from common folk like you and I.
The man they call Jayne
he turned 'round his plane
and let that money hit sky.

He dropped it onto our houses
he dropped it into our yards.
The man they called Jayne
he stole away our pain
and headed out for the stars!

Here we go!

He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.

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Originally Posted by Denicalis

Here's a picture of me in a hat some of you may recognise:



Pretty cunning, dontcha think?

Jayne. The man they call Jayne...

He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.

Our Jayne saw the mudders' backs breakin'.
He saw the mudders'lament.
And he saw the Magistrate takin'
every dollar and leavin' five cents.
So he said "You can't do that to my people."
He said "You can't crush them under your heel."
So Jayne strapped on his hat
and in 5 seconds flat
stole everythin' Boss Higgins had to steal.

He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.

Now here is what separates heroes
from common folk like you and I.
The man they call Jayne
he turned 'round his plane
and let that money hit sky.

He dropped it onto our houses
he dropped it into our yards.
The man they called Jayne
he stole away our pain
and headed out for the stars!

Here we go!

He robbed from the rich
and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man
and gave him what for.
Our love for him now
ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton
the man they call Jayne.

Thank God you only posted the picture and the words, and not a voice clip of you singing the words (though, who knows, you may have a singing voice like an angel).

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Yeah, and thank God you quoted his entire damned post because none of us are smart enough to follow linear thinking.

Jerk.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by LeHah

Yeah, and thank God you quoted his entire damned post because none of us are smart enough to follow linear thinking.

Jerk.

God I missed you, LeHah. And that isn't even sarcasm.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LeHah

Yeah, and thank God you quoted his entire damned post because none of us are smart enough to follow linear thinking.

Jerk.

You're welcome. I knew it would help somebody!

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Getting back on track, I love how it wasn't until last week that I figured out that Adam Baldwin was THAT sort of Baldwin. Also, I like how if you watch Angel, almost the whole cast pops up at different places.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by RockgamerXIII

You're welcome. I knew it would help somebody!

How about you help me out and not spit my load out of your mouth for once?

There's nowhere I can't reach.