Neon Genesis Evangelion

Originally Posted by Diamond Comics Previews

2006-05-17 16:12:10

New DVD Set to Include Many ExtrasAccording to Diamond, ADV will release a Neon Genesis Evangelion 10th Anniversarry Box Set, with a deluxe case and a "plethora of commemorative items".

Although details are still unclear about all the extras, we've confirmed the set will include a limited edition jacket (an original item not available anywhere else), a copy of one of the Evangelion manga (ADV released Evangelion: Angelic Days, Viz released Neon Genesis Evangelion (manga)) and many video extras. More details about other extras are expected soon.

The set will retail for $249.98 and is scheduled for release on August 22, 2006.

Sorry i didnt post this a while back...been really bussy(working 75 hours a week)...just thought it was somthing every eva fan should know about, but im sure you have known about if for a while huh Rei

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I'm curious about that jacket? Is it a jacket, like one you wear, or a jacket as in something to cover the DVDs? If it is a wearing jacket it better look good, and fit. Bandai annoyed me with their Eureka 7 and My-Hime shirts, which were only larges. I'm quite tall, so the things ended up looking like belly shirts...

Anyway, I'll end up buying it of course. Already own 4 full copies of the series. A fifth isn't going to hurt.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

Didn't I already go over this earlier?

ending:

The TV ending, and EoE are the same up to a certain point. In the TV ending Shinji accepts complementation, and he rejects it in EoE. I think it's pretty obvious. Everyone congratulating him at the end of the series, is basically him reaching that perfect world. That's why it's an almost disturbingly happy ending. In EoE Shinji rejects that fake world in favor of the real world. A world where he'll feel pain once again.

So yes, up until the choice they are the same. Misato gets shot in both, Ritsuko dies in the pool of LCL, Asuka fights the MP Evas etc. But Shinji either chooses differently or he's never given the choice in the first place. To me it seems like Rei never rebelled against Gendo in the TV ending. She accepted her fate, thus denying Shinji the chance to choose differently.

Saying "Didn't I already go over this earlier?" makes it sound like you're right, and we're a bunch of recalcitrant students. I find that your theory about the two endings is not at all in line with my own perceptions. You've got your ideas, and other people don't agree. The fanbase is divided right down the middle on this issue, and always will be.

Spoiler:

For as long as I can remember, it has seemed to me that Shinji chooses to reject the artificial world of complementation in both versions of the ending. It is precisely for that choice that he was being congratulated at the end of the final episode. I wasn't even really aware that there was another way the ending could have been perceived until I read Brendan Jamieson's work, on the EvaOtaku website. However, I was not convinced by his reasoning, and I'm not alone. I suggest you read MDWigs' excellent argument for the concurrency of EoE and EoTV, if only to gain another perspective on the subject.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdwigs/endings.html

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Unfortunately I don't remember the frame of mind I was in when I made that post, over a month ago. Don't know if I was trying to be funny, be an ass, or what. Most likely I was being an ass, I usually am. Though my opinion does tend to equal fact. I'm just good like that.

Anyway, looked back in the thread and couldn't find your thoughts on the endings. What are they? I'm curious as to what you think their relations are to each other (I really am. I love talking about Eva), and what evidence you have to back it up.

Spoiler:

I read that before awhile back. I still don't see it though. It comes across to me as Shinji being convinced he can live in the complemented world. I'll agree he brings up some good points, but the fact that the ending almost exactly mirrors Ideon's (which I'm also a huge fan of), and that even the RCB flat out states that the Shinji we see at the very end is complemented kind of kills it. Anno himself has stated that the ending to Eva is a tribute to Ideon, in which everyone is "complemented." Hell, even one of the title cards flat out says "we will examine Shinji being complemented." Also the fact that Rei willingly goes along with Gendo. She never gave Shinji that choice. Notice in EoE how before Gendo even comes to her she's smashed the glasses, and when he does go to her she has that look of almost hatred for the man.

It's funny because I came up with my theory before reading Jamieson's. I even disagree with his a bit, though I tend to agree with him on most of it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

Anyway, looked back in the thread and couldn't find your thoughts on the endings. What are they? I'm curious as to what you think their relations are to each other (I really am. I love talking about Eva), and what evidence you have to back it up.

I'm sure you'd find MDWigs' own treatment of the subject far more pursuasive than my own. Although he's no longer active on any forums that I know of, he had a knack for presenting new perspectives on certain aspects of Evangelion that was uncanny.

I had thought I already posted my thoughts on this, but perhaps there has been another Evangelion thread, or it could even have been pre-crash. Who can say? I'm going to have to dissapoint you if you wish for me to present a comprehensive case, including evidence fully cited and laid out for all to see. I'd be more than willing to do so on request, but it has simply been too long since I've seen this anime for me to do so right now. The best I can do is to simply discuss how I perceive the ending, and make it clear that I'm only dealing in subjective matters.

Spoiler:

The first time I watched Evangelion, the TV ending was the only one available at that time, and I have to admit that I thought it was incredibly bizarre. The first time I watched it, I did believe that Shinji chose to accept complementation, and that humanity remained merged into a single consciousness forever. It would have been rather a down ending, but not unprecedented. If the ending had unfolded in that way, it would have been strikingly similar to that of Tomino Yoshiyuki's Space Runaway Ideon.

I didn't get a chance to watch EoE until the DVD release, by which time I'd also watched the series again. It is self-evident that the process of complementation is halted and reversed during the events of EoE, but what I noticed is that leaving this apparent difference aside, there is an odd similarity between the events of the two endings. It appears to me almost as though they were the opposite sides of the same coin, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

The theatrical presentation, The End of Evangelion, can be divided into two parts. These two parts are ostensibly the replacements for episodes 25 and 26 of the TV series. They are properly called "25: AIR" and "26: Sincerely Yours (My Pure Heart For You)". There is also an epilogue, which is entitled "One More Final: I Need You".

It's important to separate out the parts like this, because it highlights the fact that the structure of the "movie", mirrors that of the TV. First of all, it's my contention that there is very little that is significantly different beween TV episode 25, and "AIR". I'd suggest that the two narratives could be said to represent the same events, but told from a different perspective.

Certainly, I think that you'd agree that the two narratives bring us to more or less the same place, and by more or less the same route. It is episode 26 which seems to contain the deviations. By whichever route we have come, we will by now have arrived at the point where complementation has begun.

It was at this point that I began to form my opinions. The two don't seem to me to be separate, but instead, two halves of an imperfectly harmonious whole. In other words, I believe that the "two endings" are in fact one, and that while episode 26 mostly tells the story from the point of view of Shinji, experiencing complementation, EoE tells that same story from an external standpoint, filling in the blanks.

Finally, if my theory were correct, one might append "One More Final: I Need You" to either the TV ending or the movie ending, and it would be just as valid.

This dialogue from the end of TV episode 26 clinches it for me, but not without reservations.

SHINJI: But... I hate myself.
REI: One who truly hates himself, cannot love. He cannot place his trust in another.
SHINJI: I'm a coward. I'm cowardly, sneaky and weak!
MISATO: No. Only if you think you are. But if you know yourself, you can take care of yourself.
SHINJI: I... hate myself... but... but, maybe... maybe, I could love myself...! Maybe... My life could have a greater value...! That's right! I'm no more, or less, than myself! I am me! I want to be myself! I want to continue existing in this world! My life is worth living here!!

It's that final line that's the kicker. Taken as a whole, it is a life-affirming statement, which is no small thing for Shinji. The emboldened portion, I believe, is an example either of dialogue which doesn't work too well in English, or which wasn't written too well to begin with. It's possible that "this world" and "here" refer to the artificial world of Complementation, but I believe that Shinji is referring to the real world.

It's important to bear in mind that the sequence of dialogue quoted above comes not long after a passage in which Shinji acknowledged that the "real world might not be so bad". Overall, I believe that the big "CONGRATULATIONS!" scene at the end, and the whole optimistic nature of the TV Ending (more so than the movie, indeed) would be out of place if Shinji was really choosing to spend the rest of his existance as a pitcher of Tang. YMMV.

even the RCB flat out states that the Shinji we see at the very end is complemented

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

It's funny because I came up with my theory before reading Jamieson's. I even disagree with his a bit, though I tend to agree with him on most of it.

As did I arrive at my own conclusions before discovering MDWigs' take on the matter. However, I'd be remiss if I didn't at least namecheck the two people who have become synonymous with this debate in Evangelion fandom.

Personally, I disagree with Brendan Jamieson on most everything, by default. It usually seems like the right policy. I have a little more to say <i>in re</i>: the edits you made to your last post. This is going to be awkward, though, because of spoiler tags.

Quote:

Spoiler:

the fact that the ending almost exactly mirrors Ideon's

[spoiler]To be influenced by something is to take certain elements from it. To transplant a structure wholesale, without alteration, however... that's nothing short of plagiarism. I think that there's a natural end to the degree of the paralels which can be drawn, because I think that Anno would have taken his influence from Ideon, and put his own unique spin on it.

I would also have to ask if you speak fluent Japanese, at this point. Unless you do, it doesn't seem to me to be possible that you've seen the ending of Ideon, or even anything past episode 29. To the best of my knowledge, the HK bootlegs available of Ideon aren't complete. I'm glad to hear that you're a huge Ideon fan, though. I just finished timing 29, grab it from the Sadakobot.

Quote:

Spoiler:

that even the RCB flat out states that the Shinji we see at the very end is complemented

[spoiler]I could point to at least one well-recognised inaccuracy in the RCB, and argue that it's an unreliable source. However, I don't need to do that, because this isn't technically a mistake. It's a semantic issue. Bear in mind that unless you're fluent in Japanese, the RCB text that you read has passed through the hands of a translator. Even the great Bochan Bird has been known to make some errors.

Quote:

Spoiler:

we will examine Shinji being complemented.

Well quite. Naturally, Shinji was complemented. So was every other scrap of life on the planet (the known exceptions notwithstanding) including plants and even microbes. However, if I was to suggest that the process was reversed, this could easily allow for my interpretation of events to be the correct one. It doesn't make it concrete, but it certainly makes it possible.

A final thought: Just because something was not shown, does not mean it didn't happen. In every narrative which is actualised through a visual medium, there is a certain amount of the action taking place "off-screen". I've no intentions of making a long and drawn-out debate on this topic though. I merely wish to make it plain that there is a degree of plurality regarding this issue. It is nowhere near to as cut-and-dried as some fans would have us believe.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

The great aspect of this series is that we can all take something different out of it. It's crafted so well its impossible for one view to be totally correct. As long as you can backup you claim with facts then your viewpoint is valid. I think that it's perfectly acceptable that the creators didn't have meaning for everything shown in this series. Fans can put their own meaning into it and have it mean what makes them feel the best.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sir VG

I watched about 15 seconds of this on Cartoon Network and have added this as another series that got ripped on the dubbing. You figure with the fanbase that this series has, they would work harder on the dubbing.

with all respect dumbass you know nothing. NGE was dubbed into english way back in 97. so you can see why it's so bad. but like i care NGE sucks,all the characters do is whine about how they shouldn't be allowed to live blah blah blah. especially shinji,what a puss.:aargh:

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by trigunzero

with all respect dumbass you know nothing. NGE was dubbed into english way back in 97. so you can see why it's so bad. but like i care NGE sucks,all the characters do is whine about how they shouldn't be allowed to live blah blah blah. especially shinji,what a puss.:aargh:

Their whining for a reason. The beauty of the series is that these characters are actually whole and well rounded. I think its much more believable for Shinji to whine about what he is being put through than just accepting it without any conflict. Shinji is not you typical super child that pilots a robot. He's has some serious mental problems as do most of the characters. It's figuring out what caused these problems and how they live with them thats half the fun of the series.

The dub is actually quite good. All of the characters had good performances and rememorable voices. One big problem though is the multiple voices for some of the characters. Toji, Fuyutsuki, Gendo, and Kaoru come to mind.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Not only that, but all of those voice actors have gone on to achieve bigger and better roles, thus noting that their performance in Evangelion had a positive spin for 'em.

Besides, no one can do a voice-cracking pubescent male like Spike Spencer. See Shinji Ikari, Akito Tenkawa (Nadesico), and Majic (Orphen).

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by trigunzero

with all respect dumbass you know nothing. NGE was dubbed into english way back in 97. so you can see why it's so bad. but like i care NGE sucks,all the characters do is whine about how they shouldn't be allowed to live blah blah blah. especially shinji,what a puss.:aargh:

Oh no, a realistic depiction of someone! "Boring, stop whining and start killing" is the wrong way to see the anime. Oh, BTW, the cartoon network version is the old recording of it in English. They have rereleased it with 5.1 if you care to have that issue "fixed."

Originally Posted by SouthJag

Not only that, but all of those voice actors have gone on to achieve bigger and better roles, thus noting that their performance in Evangelion had a positive spin for 'em.

Besides, no one can do a voice-cracking pubescent male like Spike Spencer. See Shinji Ikari, Akito Tenkawa (Nadesico), and Majic (Orphen).

The audio commentaries for the movies praise his screaming. Spike really does well in fitting the role.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Soluzar

There is also an epilogue, which is entitled "One More Final: I Need You".

What does this epilogue show? I have watched the End of Evangelion quite some time ago but I do not remember seeing this before.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by BluencoolX

What does this epilogue show? I have watched the End of Evangelion quite some time ago but I do not remember seeing this before.

That is what takes place at the end of EOE. With Shinji and Asuka on the beach.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

Well quite. Naturally, Shinji was complemented. So was every other scrap of life on the planet (the known exceptions notwithstanding) including plants and even microbes. However, if I was to suggest that the process was reversed, this could easily allow for my interpretation of events to be the correct one. It doesn't make it concrete, but it certainly makes it possible.

Ah, that's where we differ lol. I don't think it can be reversed. Once it's done, it's done. It's also why I have a slightly darker view of the ending than most people. While a lot of people, including Jamieson, believe that everyone will come back if they have the will to, I don't think it's that easy.

Anyway, you're right on there being different theories. I apologize if I came off rudely. I'm sorry about that, I type before I think. Oh yeah, you mentioned Ideon. I've seen the raws of the ending. My wife speaks Japanese, and she helped me. Though due to that I obviously didn't get every detail. Excellent show. Makes me cry that it never got licensed.

Quote:

The audio commentaries for the movies praise his screaming. Spike really does well in fitting the role.

He did have some excellent screams, but no one can come close to Megumi Ogata. Her Shinji scream is bone chilling.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Foshi

That is what takes place at the end of EOE. With Shinji and Asuka on the beach.

I see, thanks. Talking about that scene, why did Shinji do that to Asuka? Isn't he supposed to have thought things out and stop being angsty by then already?

Either way, if I understood Shinji and Asuka's situation properly, I think that both of them are still going to die in the end, because

Spoiler:

there isn't any food, unless they plan to feed on that pool of LCL for the rest of their life, which sucks. Don't forget that Big Rei will probably start decaying after a few days as well...

Also, if the Instrumentality project were to succeed, what is Big Rei supposed to do after that? Pardon me if my ideas and questions seem stupid but I can't help thinkng. :eyebrow:

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I recall the Instrumentality ending (TV) and the MegaRei (Movie) being different possible endings. At least, that's how I like to view it. TV = Happy Ending, Movie = Continuation of the mode of the series (DEPRESSION)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Lukage

I recall the Instrumentality ending (TV) and the MegaRei (Movie) being different possible endings. At least, that's how I like to view it. TV = Happy Ending, Movie = Continuation of the mode of the series (DEPRESSION)

Except this is a very superficial way of looking at it. Watching it again, the TV ending seems to "fit" the theme of the series more, while the movie ending is only superficially more like eps 1-24 while not being philosophically the same.

It's a lot like Dickens end of "Great Expectations" (sort of in reverse, though). The original ending of the novel was a bit depressing and the fans didn't like it, even though it was thematically necessary. So, Dickens wrote a "happy" ending that didn't really "fit" the novel but pleased fans. End of Eva reminds me a lot of that. It contains a lot of things that please fans but doesn't fit the themes of the show as well as the last couple TV eps, though this time the "happy" ending is the one fans don't like.

Unfortunately, most Eva fanboys only pretend at actually thinking about the themes of the show and think it's about Angels and giant robots or something like that. Eva was only about giant robots fighting giant monsters for the first 10-13 episodes. After that, Anno went crazy or something and it really turned into a show about sick twisted characters being sick and twisted together (which actually worked in a weird way). I don't know how a visually confusing mess like End of Eva that contained a ton of giant robot fights and random violence is supposed to be a continuation of the the last few TV eps, except for containing disturbing imagery. Eps 25+26 really match the psycho-sci-fi soap opera the show became in later episodes.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Lukage

I recall the Instrumentality ending (TV) and the MegaRei (Movie) being different possible endings. At least, that's how I like to view it. TV = Happy Ending, Movie = Continuation of the mode of the series (DEPRESSION)

I thought i already went over this... >.< überRei was more along the lines of Seeles plan and not Gendo's. They both have the same ending according to Anno. The TV was a Metaphysical and the Movies where Physical...so the TV ending is what takes place inside überRei, and what is going on in these screwed up peoples minds....If you pay attentino you can see that

Trying to clear up things again...:

BOTH TIMES he lets instrumentality start. and both of them he said, FUCK THIS SHIT, and makes it stop. Instrumentlity, the combining of all souls in one intity(überRei) to be their arc. The whole scene which Shinji and Rei going through eachother in the 'sea of lcl' the AT Field existing stuff, was asking shinji if he wanted instrumentality to coninuse, and he said no, he wants the AT field to exist again. he does the same thing in the TV ending, he figures out that there is a him out side of being an Eva, he thought that he couldnt exist with out it, and therefor once Eva was no longer needed he was no longer needed and that if he could stay in the eva forever he would exist forever. So once he realized that he would exist past Eva he said there is no need to do this, and THAT is why they are congragulating him. and as i have said afew times already...in the movie Rei says that as long as you can imagine yourself you will exist, and that is why a VERY dead Asuka was able to come back to life, she had those bandages because that is how she saw herself after what happend....but on why he tried to choke her...im pretty sure its just as she says, hes just fucked up...

Blah...this is annoying...im trying to justify somthing i havnt seen in...3 months now...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Quote:

I thought i already went over this... >.< überRei was more along the lines of Seeles plan and not Gendo's.

They both would have ended up with Lilith forming. I'm pretty sure that was a part of both their plans. I can assume no Lilith, means no 3rd Impact whatsoever.

Quote:

They both have the same ending according to Anno.

I'd like to see where Anno says both endings are exactly the same.

Quote:

So the TV ending is what takes place inside überRei

It's actually what happens inside Shinji's head. Well the last episode is anyway.

Quote:

Except this is a very superficial way of looking at it. Watching it again, the TV ending seems to "fit" the theme of the series more, while the movie ending is only superficially more like eps 1-24 while not being philosophically the same.

Analyzing both I think it's easy to see the TV ending is a far more happier one. I don't see how it could be seen any other way. Though in my theory of what it means (he went through with complementation), it could be sad in a way. Also the ending to EoE was just as thought provoking as the ending to the TV series. The first half of EoE is just showing what happened during episode 25.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

Analyzing both I think it's easy to see the TV ending is a far more happier one. I don't see how it could be seen any other way. Though in my theory of what it means (he went through with complementation), it could be sad in a way. Also the ending to EoE was just as thought provoking as the ending to the TV series. The first half of EoE is just showing what happened during episode 25.

What does "happy" and "sad" have to do with it? I just stated that the TV ending was thematically more true to the rest of the series. Unless you believe that "sad" is somehow thematically necessary.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

They both would have ended up with Lilith forming. I'm pretty sure that was a part of both their plans. I can assume no Lilith, means no 3rd Impact whatsoever.

Yes, but its still went more the way seele wanted it to go from the start. they started it, rather than Gendo.

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

I'd like to see where Anno says both endings are exactly the same.

I WISH I COULD FIND THE DAMN ARRTICAL AGAIN!...and exact same, and same out come are 2 different things.

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

It's actually what happens inside Shinji's head. Well the last episode is anyway.

Inside überRei is no diffirent from being inside anybodys head because they have all undger gone instrumentality.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Great Antibob

What does "happy" and "sad" have to do with it? I just stated that the TV ending was thematically more true to the rest of the series. Unless you believe that "sad" is somehow thematically necessary.

You first compared it to Dickens sad and happy endings of Great Expectations, and then went on to talk about the TV series having a happy ending the fans didn't like. I just used your own phrasing.

Quote:

Inside überRei is no diffirent from being inside anybodys head because they have all undger gone instrumentality.

No, since people had different experiences during it. As shown in episodes 25 and 26. Especially when the title card for 26 says they will focus on what is going through Shinji's mind during Instrumentality.

Quote:

I WISH I COULD FIND THE DAMN ARRTICAL AGAIN!

I wish you could too since it would kill a lot of debate about the series.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by BluencoolX

I see, thanks. Talking about that scene, why did Shinji do that to Asuka? Isn't he supposed to have thought things out and stop being angsty by then already?:eyebrow:

Asuka said that Shinji didn't have the guts to kill her earlier. Remember what she said about not wanting to live if it was just Shinji and her. Shinji is just proving that he does have the guts to do it. He was trying to fulfill her wish of not living at all but since Asuka has been enlightened she caresses Shiji's cheek which reminds him of his mothers touch so he stops strangeling her.
When she says "How disgusting" its not that she is refering to Shinji not having the guts to kill but that she can't believe how much she herself has changed.
(Or something along those lines)

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

I wish you could too since it would kill a lot of debate about the series.

I've seen other people reference that same article, but I believe it was Tsuramaki who gave the interview, and who stated that the two endings are fundamentally the same. Whoever said it, it was in Japanese, and I didn't keep the link. I'm told that his statement translates to the effect that the EoE screenplay was made from an extended version of the original storyboard for the TV ending. The TV ending as we see it was cut drastically for lenght, and budgetary reasons, but the script outline remained the same.

I encourage you to take that notion with a large pinch of salt, since I didn't trouble to read the interview for myself.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Foshi

Asuka said that Shinji didn't have the guts to kill her earlier. Remember what she said about not wanting to live if it was just Shinji and her. Shinji is just proving that he does have the guts to do it. He was trying to fulfill her wish of not living at all but since Asuka has been enlightened she caresses Shiji's cheek which reminds him of his mothers touch so he stops strangeling her.
When she says "How disgusting" its not that she is refering to Shinji not having the guts to kill but that she can't believe how much she herself has changed.
(Or something along those lines)

Nice explanation, thanks for clearing my doubts!

I was speaking idiomatically.

bakc to the earlier question about who killed Kaji...I think it could have been Gendo considering that Kaji knew some secrets about Adam that he didn't want to be revealed that soon. End of Eva is the best anime i've seen in years, depite the fact it's been out over ten years.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?