Why not legalize prostitution?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_shit
"Artist's shit" (Italian: "Merda d'artista") is a work of art by the Italian artist Piero Manzoni. The work is a tin can in an edition of 90 labeled in Italian, English, French and German with the description '"Artist's Shit", contents 30gr net freshly preserved, produced and tinned in May 1961.' They were intended to be sold for their weight in gold, the price fluctuating according to the market.

Maybe Piero Manzoni's shit is worth its weight in gold, nowadays even more. For all I care it is worthless.

The acrobat may have a peculiar grace to his everyday walk, but that doesn't mean that acrobats have not stubbed their toes or slipped on ice. I don't trust the genius to be paying close attention to every thread of his existence, or to be versed in all things he discusses. Everything the genius does is in fact "the work of a genius," but not an ingenious work.

As far as prostitution: maybe it is not the place of government to tell who anyone can fuck and for what reasons. But it is the place of government to maintain public schools, balance the economy, and make sure people have decent job opportunities. If it were doing those things then perhaps prostitution wouldn't even be a reasonable choice.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

We all know that 1) people who like being prostitutes and 2) make over 10k a night are few and far between. For the great majority, it is exploitative and degradating work that they couldn't help but resort to.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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And unfortunately the other side is thinking that despite the fact that if prostitution was legalized, for the most part, that profession would become a safer place, they would still find it 'evil and morally wrong' just due to mostly religious beliefs nowadays (hell back in Greek times it was all the rage, and not frowned on at all), they would rather keep their morality in check and judge people rather than wanting people in a safe, secure location to do what they want to do.

See, you part from the assumption that people want to be prostitutes. That may or may not be the case. Why do you think that it is?

The point is, I don't think you have any data to back up that claim, but here is some to back up mine: In the paper "Prostitution in Nevada," Richard Symanski writes about the brothels and prostitutes in a state with legalized prostitution. The rules in Nevada are extremely stringent and concerned with health codes. Symanski found that most of the current prostitutes were previously streetwalkers, waitress, call-girls, or university students. Why do you think that women in respectable, well-paying jobs aren't in that list? The main reason these prostitutes give for entering the profession is "quick financial gain." He does write, however, that normalizing prostitution does away with many of the present health problems associated with the profession. Here is a link to the article:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2562357

I understand that becoming a prostitute is a way to gain power for a lot of women down in their luck, but isn't it a bit ironic that it involves using a patriarchal system that has put them in that position in the first place? That is, males have exploited women for a long time. How can women get out of that position? Why, exacerbate the problem! Make yourself an object! Work within the power structure that men have cemented for you. Maybe some women DO want to be prostitutes, but I would contend it is because of their politico/economic place in society. I find that system in itself criminal. So, to meet you halfway, I have absolutely no problem with women wanting to be prostitutes and doing it legally, for whatever reason it is they cite. But I do wish that instead of making it easier for girls to become prostitutes, we were working on giving every person a dignified and prosperous place in our society.

Second, I am not entirely sure that religious beliefs are really what is driving opposition to prostitution, at least not unilaterally. I, for one, am simply concerned with people being exploited. I agree with you, working for large retailers sucks (I used to work at Best Buy, and I am never going back). But on the other hand, I feel like prostitution opens up a much bigger can of worms. Yes, people sell their bodies for manual labor in the construction industry, but that rarely involves an intimate, powerful practice. Sex is serious business ().

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by a lurker

Wow. This is an extremely ignorant thing to say! I wonder if you think America (or at least the liberal parts) isn't racist anymore.

I think most of America is very racist. Not even a Harvard Professor in a beautiful historic Cambridge home is safe from American Racism.

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Just for the record most if not all occupational structures within our society have been cemented by men.

Yes, but not all of them require becoming a prostitute to lead a finnancially stable life. THAT is objectification; that is what I am concerned with. But you are funny though, real funny. You got internet humor down, I am real impressed.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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You think in this day and age, in America of all places that a prostitute is merely some dumb broad down on her luck with no other options in life?

I think I spotted the winner of the misogynist award.

Certainly not all prostitutes are that, but I think a great deal of them are. the article I posted (the first of any sort of EVIDENCE that has been brought up between the both of us) cites that virtually all prostitutes in a state in which the practice is legal 1) used to be hobos or in low-paying jobs 2) mostly fuck TRUCKERS. Come on man! You know people wouldn't go with TRUCKERS for fun.

What I mean by being "down on their luck" is more than just being out of a job. There are material, political, and economic reasons for the way modern society is structured. And sometimes certain groups get the short end of the stick. There is a reason why African Americans make up a disproportionate amount of the prison population, and why women in certain urban areas are more likely to become prostitutes. Now, the way to solve these problems is not to KILL the blacks in jail or allow the women to become prostitutes, but to focus on better education, better jobs, and a reformulation of certain aspects of American society.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Then I wonder why black people use racist systems that marginalize them in the first place. Isn't it better for them to not work within the power structure that whites have made for them? They are only exacerbating the problem with racism.

Well, what some of the African Americans I know do is work within the system to highlight its racist aspects and to speak against it because it is what allows them to reach the most people. Black academics or socially-conscious rappers are great examples.

It is quite a nuanced position, though, and you are on to something by pointing out that it feeds off of the problem it is trying to solve.

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I don't know what you do for a living, but I guess you do it pro bono. I kind of admire your selflessness. The rest of us are mostly whores, though. We sell ourselves and our talents for the petty reward of filthy lucre. How foul it is that society has driven us to this!

There is no practical distinction between "I work as a coal miner because it's the best job available to me" and "I work at a brothel because it's the best job available to me". Coal mining, like sex work, can be an immensely dangerous job if the proper precautions are not taken, but does anyone propose it should be illegal to work as a coal miner? Of course not! Instead, laws are put into place to make coal-mining a safer profession.

The arguments in play here seem to revolve entirely around the notion that using one's body to make a living abruptly becomes implicitly monstrous the moments one drops one's drawers. Why? What is so implicitly amoral about the vagina or the penis relatively to the arms or the back? Yes, fucking for a living can give you diseases if you don't take precautions. Are we to outlaw DOCTORS on this basis? After all, they touch sick people every day! HOW DANGEROUS!

Pang, I agree with you completely. I, however, have a problem with ALL exploitative careers. I should hope that in the future both coal mining, industry work, and prostitution can be left behind.

I do think, on the other hand, that being a prostitute may subject someone to particular and unique psychological stresses that other professions can't touch. But maybe not.

Originally Posted by a lurker

Do you know why she thinks you're a misogynist?

It's because you're talking about allowing grown-ass women to perform a profession.

Alright, then I am a misogynist. Will you agree with me, then, that because the business community has a very limited number of female, black, or minority CEOs it is racist, misogynist, and hateful?

It is not I who is doing the allowing, but the US Government, which, by the way, allows GROWN ASS PEOPLE to do or not things/professions all the time.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I have no idea what the fuck you are saying, so I will just stop replying.

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Yeah, but those are massive societal changes. Changes we probably will never see.

If prostitution were legal, imagine all the women who would be safer and probably more able to take themselves and their kids to a better part of town, or at the very least, a slightly better position in life. Their kids could possibly have the opportunities their parents did not, and in turn, begin to set in motion those very changes you spoke of.

That shit will not happen with a job at McDonald's.

I see what you are saying, and there is some merit to it. I think, however, that prostitution may be a little more hurtful to those in it than other careers. Do you think it would be a better alternative if women could lift themselves out of poverty without becoming prostitutes?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by a lurker

Why do you think it is the requirement of a person in a marginalized demographic to heroically rise up and throw off the shackles of their oppression when all they want is to pay their bills and raise their family like a normal fucking person?

Because I think the world is an extremely fucked up place and it would be better if we confronted some of these problems head-on instead of lived as if it's none of our business.

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why is it a requirement of women of little means to be martyrs to a battle you imposed on them?

When did I say that I required anyone to do what I say? All I have been saying is that I wish people would have better opportunities so that would not have to resort to what I consider extreme degradation. Maybe it is not as bad as I paint it. In the end, it does not matter, it is not up to me to decide, is it?

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And also why on earth are you comparing yourself to the US Government?

Where did I say I am like the US Government? All I said is ultimately the entity that allows or disallows prostitution is government, and not me. What I think or care about doesn't really matter in this context.

Maybe prostitution ought to be legal, but that means jackshit. The government is the only entity that can do anything about it.

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Do you know that this god damn country was FOUNDED on fucking jobs like coal mining, industry work and other shit like that? EVERY GOD DAMN JOB in this fucking world is exploitative of their workers. It doesn't matter what the fuck it is.

The fact that this country was founded on those jobs doesn't make them any better. And you got my point exactly! All jobs are more or less exploitative. Shouldn't we do something to change that?

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It's often I find those that 'take the moral high ground' on discussions like these, tend to be the ones that spit on human rights the most. It's sickening.

I understand that is cool or whatever to get angry, cynical, and swear out the ass on the internet, but all I have been saying is that I wish people would have other opportunities before becoming prostitutes.

IF people had good economic opportunities and THEN became prostitutes, then it would be a matter of choice. But most of the time that is not the case.

But, I will say it again, I am all for LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION, as long as people are given a fair chance at leading their lives a different way first.

I find it interesting that you find illegal prostitution a more serious human rights violation than women being forced to have sex to survive.

I see where you are coming from though; and I agree that perhaps prostitute's lives would be better as it is with the implementation of certain laws. My point, however, is that sooner or later we will have to get down to the bottom to the bottom of the problem, and not just skim it with regulation.

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A: The federal government doesn't disallow prostitution AFAIK. There are laws governing interstate travel or immigration for the purpose of prostitution, but I'm pretty sure the FBI doesn't give a tin shit if you invite some dude into your house and charge him $100 when he leaves. Local authorities will be very interested, but not the Fed.

B: Name any other victimless profession that is broadly outlawed in the majority of the USA (and no, doing a job that may subject you to certain stresses does not make you a victim).

A: point taken.

B: I assume teaching people how to build dirty bombs, drugs, or other harmful substances would land people in jail if they did it out in the open. The information itself is not illegal, we all know that, but that does not mean that the US or state government would respect your right to disseminate it.

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Pot is legal in my state. And you only focused on a third of my post.

You know that pot is peanuts compared to some of the other shit the government is worrying about. Find me a printed magazine about making crack, dirty bombs, or how to fly planes into buildings and then we are talking.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by a lurker

who's deciding what now

Yeah, and what difference does that statement make? Government has the real choice, I am just telling you what I think is best. Again, that does not mean I am comparing myself to the US Government, your original complaint.

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Why? Exactly what went wrong in your upbringing that you see sexual intercourse as some kind of magical transfigurating event? It's just nerve endings and lube, no particular witchcraft is involved. Your perception of sex as some kind of witchcraft that corrupts everything it touches is hard to rationalize on any level other than "because the Bible tells me so".

Then let's go through this example: would you mind me fucking your mom for $10,000? And have absolutely no qualms? You are a being of pure reason, afterall, and you know that the money is more real than nut I'd bust on her face or what that would mean to you or her.

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You whiteknights are all the same, you seem to genuinely want better treatment for women but there is always some inherent hypocrisy in your tirades. You've established that you want better quality of life for poor women and "opportunities" yet you don't think a woman has the right to choose what she can do with her own body.

Here is what you haven't understood: I don't have any misconceptions about choice being some sort of ultimate good. In fact, I believe some choices should be kept illegal.

I do think that prostitution could be a legitimate choice that a woman has, and I even think that government might allow that. However, I'd like government to use its power to lift people out of poverty rather than create more means for them to live in it. That's it.

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The mere fact that you can't handle the subject of prostitution without degrading the women involved or showing some fucking respect in some women's choices means you are unfit for this debate. You have a moral problem with prostitution that you need resolved. Come back to me when you give me some real adverse effects of making prostitution legal instead of : EWWW TRUCKERS.

Let's get this straight: allowing women to become prostitutes is fine. But trying to protect them from being sexually exploited degrades them. Right.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'd like a way that is less degrading. I know some people here don't think it is degrading, but I don't think that is how the vast majority of the country feels.

Also, RR, the study I quoted today says that in Nevada most women only stay in the business for 6 months, many quit within one. And that is from a place with legal, controlled prostitution.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Please, try to make a coherent argument. You're making no sense. Why do you feel that sex is magic?

It is not that it is magic, but that it is a very personal experience. Some of you guys have been arguing that it is just a physical encounter with no strings attached, and I fully believe it CAN be that, but it certainly isn't always. Many rape victims take a life-time to overcome what can be chalked up to a few moments of sexual intercourse. Sure, that isn't MAGICAL, but it sure is powerful, more than "just nerve endings and lube" like Pang puts it.

I am all for prostitution in which women have a legitimate choice. As it is in today's society, I feel that many of the women that would resort to it would do so because they have had no other opportunities. I take that to be coercion; Sure, these women wouldn't be RAPED in every sense of the word, but if prostitution is the only profession they can resort to in order to survive you can't really think that they are doing it out of a complete free choice. That is like saying that I give my money willingly when I have a gun pointed to my head.

If our government can spend a trillion dollars on the Iraq war, 3 trillion bailing out banks, and another trillion in medicare, then why can it not give better opportunities to these women? Now, once those opportunities are in place, the women can become prostitutes and do whatever they want. I just think that there wouldn't be as many.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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So you think -BY DEFAULT- if a woman should want to be a prostitute, she doesn't know any better and has no other choices in life?

No. I do think that giving prostitutes other opportunities would drastically decrease the number of prostitutes because prostitution is (probably) tough, gruesome, degrading work. Maybe it is pure glamor though.

How ya doing, buddy?

Grail, I understand that working at Walmart sucks, but I don't think it is as bad as being a prostitute most of the time.

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In a world where prostitution is LEGAL, they have even more choice and more protection than they do in the world YOU seem to want for them.

Look, I have already said that I want prostitution to be legal. I well conceive of some people who even enjoy being prostitutes, although I think that that is probably a minority.

When prostitution is legalized, it would be good if efforts were put in place to give women in urban and rural areas opportunities other than prostitution. I do have a problem with it becoming the profession that impoverished people default into. A young girl or boy in a rural area may only have prostitution as viable work in order to survive. That seems to be exploitative to a cruel degree.

Do you disagree with that?

As to whether it would be a bad job if it were legal, who can tell for sure? Like we have already agree, there are people for everything. The point is, we have no data and are basically discussing opinions. As for me, I think it would probably be terrible, but I have worked on a Rape/Sexual Assault line and dealt with a lot of impoverished women who have had to resort to it. I can see that you prefer keeping it a woman's choice. All I hold is that this choice probably wouldn't be so free.

Originally Posted by Midna

What "other opportunities" could be offered that would pay a few hundred dollars an hour?

I am not going to say I am wise in what the majority of prostitutes feel about their job, but I do know one and she has changed my view that prostitutes are somehow victims. The woman I know was never sexually abused, and comes from a home where the parents have been married for 30+ years. From what she has said to me, I get the impression she likes the power and control she has over the men in that they want her enough to pay her $300+ an hour. She has also told me that while some of the men she sees are not attractive, she does see men that are not only attractive, but damn good in bed and actually make the effort to please her as well as themselves.

This woman also has a screening process of some sort and doesn't see just anyone. She has never been hurt in any way by a client that wasn't consensual.

I am sure lots of women like that exist. But I still contend that the majority is far from that. I don't really think that's such a controversial statement.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

None. I don't think that is a huge problem, though. Most people don't need those types of wages.

FELIPE NO

Nothing. I have said that I am perfectly fine with legal prostitution, as long is it is not the profession people default into.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I don't think you understand what I mean by options. But I am gonna let it go because we aren't getting anywhere and not listening to one another.

If you care however, you should watch this video:

YouTube - Noam Chomsky - Noam vs. Michel Foucault (Eng. subs)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

You realise most academics think Noam Chomsky is sort of out of his mind these days, yeah? You and KP keep running off at the mouth about things like the plight of the downtrodden woman and the suffering of the poor people being damaged by this. What you are is the victim of a sad, and far too common, problem: You're educated retarded.

You quote a single study and act like you've solved the problem. You're talking social theory, at BEST we're taking shots in the dark as anthropologists and sociologists. A single study is a drop in a bucket of water. Go read Kulick's books on the Brasilian transvesti prostitutes, or Taboo, or his paper on prostitution in Sweden. How about Cauthen's legalizing prostitution work in his ethics? Do you know anything of Sweden's system of selling sex being legal, but buying it being illegal? You know what happened? The prostitutes got pissed.

Why? Because they chose a vocation that was legal, and now the government was meddling in it for their own good. They didn't want the help, but damnit, the moral highground demanded that they save those poor hookers. Who didn't need or want saving.

You want legal systems based on morality. You can't have it. Morality is a personal choice, and if you don't want to fuck for money, from either side of the c-note, then you don't have to. But the fact you want to legislate it so you can feel slightly less icky is so condescending it hurts. Look at how Germany handles legalized prostitution. Do some fucking research on the subject before you start shooting off at the mouth.

You mentioned how cultures react to prostitution. There are whole parts of the world, white man, who don't think sex is a big deal. The idea of sex for money being degrading would be HILARIOUS to a group like the Muinane. It's just sex. It's fun. Move on with your life, True Believer. You don't understand what the social theory says about this because you haven't read it. A large section of the modern world has legalized prostitution, and as you want to keep slapping around the Dutch for shutting down part of the red light district, allow me to educate you: The problem in Holland wasn't the legalized prostitution, it was poorly policed parts of the city dealing in children instead of grown adults. Legalized prostitution is doing very well in Holland, they just closed the places that weren't by the book and hired more inspectors.

Those crazy dutch.

I did some ethnography with prostitutes, and my favourite anecdote was from a Swedish woman. She, along with some 5000 others in her country, was a licensed physical therapist who would have sex with her clients (who were largely disabled or otherwise unable to go out and hire a prostitute themselves) for money, often as a form of therapy. She found an improvement ration in her client's mental state that destroyed prescription drug use. She can't do that anymore with Sweden's new laws. She has a lot of money, many job options, and she chooses to be a prostitute because it's safe in a legalized, and well run environment.

You know why Vegas is a shambles? Because it's one oasis in a desert of intolerance. It's not policed properly and there is no societal structure in place in the US to support a legalized sex industry because of ignorant fucking morallly presumptuous jokes like the two of you. Read some books, get some life experience, and stop thinking your arguments are even remotely valid.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but unless it's informed, no one is required to take you seriously.

"Fucking is legal. Selling is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?"



P.S.

If you think sex is life changing, you haven't had it with more than three people. Just saying.

I posted that video for Foucault, who has the last word in the interview. Foucault posits that there is no ultimate morality, but that does not mean that people can't be exploited. Think about it. There are material reasons for the current class structure, institutions, and operations of society. If some people live in extreme wealth while other starve, there is a reason for it.

At one point, these institutions pointed towards overly violent punishments for witchcraft. I don't hold any qualms with calling those actions and institutions lies. I don't have any qualms with calling today's public schooling, the police, and prostitution lies. The reason is that people take those actions to be free and perfectly reasonable, but they stem from exploitative historical forces.

I know my views are a bit unorthodox, but they are hardly hateful like some of you guys have been painting.

Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by Bath House Pang House

Precisely the same basis that lies beneath antiabortion legislation: the desire to undermine the status of women. Bans on prostitution, specifically, were designed to make it more difficult for women to live productive lives independent of a man on which to rely. If a woman has her own income, she no longer needs a man. This reduces the pool of marriageable women, which in turn increases the number of bachelors, which leads to patrilineal lines dying out — which, in a patriarchal culture, is entirely unacceptable.

Of course, nowadays we all pretend sexism is over and women can take any job they want so the ban on prostitution is largely just an anachronistic leftover which survives purely on the will of... well, people who feel it's BAD for reasons they can't quite communicate.

So, I agree with you. But I will say it again: my only fear is that in rural areas prostitution will become the ONLY means of living for certain women. That's my only problem; but other than that legalize it all you want.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

So let me get this straight: you guys are all for women's choice, but you think that my call for other opportunities (along with legalized prostitution) is a detriment to their freedom?

I've said it a million times now: I am perfectly fine with legalized prostitution, as long as no people are forced into it by economic conditions, because that is exploitation.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Bath House Pang House

It should be noted that adequately severe economic conditions are quite capable of forcing people into certain niche occupations even when these occupations are illegal. The only difference is that these desperate, economically-disadvantaged people would enjoy the same legal protections that anyone else does at their work. So what you really mean to say is:

You are right, but I assume there will be a larger number of prostitutes around when it is legalized, exacerbating the problem. Nevada, after all, supposedly has the largest number of prostitutes in the country, and second largest number of child prostitutes, second only to Georgia.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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The evidence would then tend to indicate that child prostitution is not encouraged by legalized adult prostitution, but by some other factor — one common to both Nevada and Georgia.

I am not sure this is necessarily right. There probably isn't a single factor in both of the states, and for all we know, the factors in Georgia could be completely separate from those in Nevada, one of which could be the fact of legalized adult prostitution.

I know that's not a very strong proposition, but it is really hard to argue about this stuff since there is almost no data and the starting points seem to be one's feelings towards sex, government intervention, and choice.

Originally Posted by Shin

You're talking out of your arse really though aren't you? I mean, your whole standpoint in this thread, apart from the hilariously patronising "Allowing" women to have certain jobs, is that you have nothing against legalising prostitution but for the fact that it will lead to more poor people becoming prossies as they have no other employment prospects, right?

State governments are the entities that allow or disallow certain professions by making them illegal. I thought the purpose of the thread was to discuss whether or not prostitution should be legal. Whether or not that is patronizing seems to be a whole nother story.

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Well currently, when people are so poor they can't eat and so unemployable that even farmers looking for fruit pickers won't take them, a lot of them turn to selling their bodies already. The difference is that as it's illegal, they have no rights like other employees and are often at the mercy of gangsters. If you legalised prostitution, the same people who were thinking about it as a career under the current laws would still think about it, only now they wouldn't get arrested for doing it or beaten up and exploited by pimps. I truly fail to see how this is a bad thing in your mind.

If there are problems that are leading to poverty, then they ought to be addressed directly instead of simply mended by adding another industry to the table.

I believe that prostitution would become more common as well as a more attractive proposition for young people if whorehouses were set up.

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All the things you say are bad about prostituion, the exploitation, the bad conditions, the uptake of the career out of desperation and so forth are all the things that'd be reduced by legalising it.

How so? If people are poor, have no other job opportunities, and need the money, how will the greater availability of sex work reduce people taking it up out of desperation?

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You seem to have this weird idea that if it was legalised, the industry would still be run by sleezy gangsters with stupid furry top hats and canes. Like things would carry on exactly as they are only with no arrests ever and that's just dumb. You'll notice I'm sure that when alcohol prohibition ended in the US, people stopped making gin in old bath tubs out in the woods and instead, adopted a wholly more professional approach and the same would happen if prostitution was legalised. The face of the industry would change and it'd get a whole lot more professional.

I understand that it would get a whole lot more professional, but I also think that young people from rural areas might come to see prostitution as their only option.

I go to school in a rural part of Mass which used to be an industrial metropolis. Today, the unemployment rate is 15%; the industries have all been moving away, but the population keeps growing. Many of the high school graduates have almost no prospects of going to college or technical school. From my familiarity with this community, I can see prostitution, in which a young person can make lots of money very quickly, becoming virtually the only profession any of these teens would want.

I think that legalizing prostitution can help lift some people out of poverty as well as solve some of the other problems you guys have brought up. On the other hand, I see this poverty as being inflicted from extra-personal forces, and I don't think prostitution is the solution every time. With the $50,000 a person our GDP offers, no one needs to be entering prostitution unless they truly desire it.

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This could arguably make prostitution the least exploitative industry, since whores posses control over the means of their production (sex), in the absence of the capitalist (pimp).

In the German Ideology Marx argues that the sex act the foundation of the division of labor... Even if women to posses their means of production, it is entrenched in a system of commodity and labor-time: they are paid to be the passive recipients of sexual desire. The prostitute is only worth his/her time, and that is pure worker commodification in the Marxist framework.

I was speaking idiomatically.

When did I ever argue for communism? All I said is each US Citizen is entitled to $50,000 worth of services. If that money was better invested, then some people would not have to resort to being prostitutes.

Whether or not you want to be able to walk into a building and decide you want to fuck some asian or black woman up the ass if your own god damn problem.

I know it's really cool to be a fucking cynic on the internet but maybe if you read more carefully you might do better. You know, for the millions of people out there jerking off over how funny your comments are.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

You see "only" anywhere in my post or is the fat covering up your eyes?

If your government (read: YOUR) has a predetermined amount of wealth directly related to your taxes, then why the fuck would you not be entitled to it in terms of government services?

Besides, the current cost of health-care is contingent on a lot of fucking stupid administrative decisions.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Shin

You were arguing for communism when you suggested that the USA having a GDP per person of $50,000 meant that every person was entitled to $50,000 of help. This might not have been exactly what you meant but that's what you said.

No, the US government is not communist and people still get a certain amount of money worth of services. Public school, transportation, paved roads, and police officers are all public services partially or completely offered by the government. All I said was each person, because of his/her status of citizenship and/or contribution to taxes is entitled to $50,000. Now, that is a pretty vague statement, I admit it. But it is pretty clear what I mean: no one should be in abject poverty or basically FORCED to sell themselves for money, whether legal or not.

Now, I will agree with you all ONCE AGAIN:

1) legalizing prostitution will make people safer
2) some people WANT to be prostitutes
3) I couldn't care less what willing parties do to each other

But saying prostitution is a way out of poverty for anyone is retarded. That is where the $50,000 comes in. Those funds should be used for schools, welfare, creating jobs, a new deal, whatever. IF people want to be prostitutes, FINE. But don't act as if EVERYONE that becomes a prostitute just loves it, because I doubt that is the case.

Whether or not the market controls it doesn't matter: some people have no opportunities other than prostitution, and that doesn't need to be the case.

Quote:

You've moved beyond the realms of reasoned debate into flights of pure, childish fantasy. Your inability to form reasoned arguments or understand basic concepts about how the world around you works is just making you look stupid now. Either actually answer some of the very basic questions people here, including myself have posed about your tenuous moral standpoint or shut up. Simply throwing around childish insults and ignoring what people are saying is doing you no favours.

You and other have been throwing around insults the whole time. Isn't careful dry wit what the internet runs on these days?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

My fucking God. Sass, I have compiled a list of times I have agreed with you:

1) Let's get this straight: allowing women to become prostitutes is fine. But trying to protect them from being sexually exploited degrades them. Right.
2) I'd like a way that is less degrading. I know some people here don't think it is degrading, but I don't think that is how the vast majority of the country feels.
3) If our government can spend a trillion dollars on the Iraq war, 3 trillion bailing out banks, and another trillion in medicare, then why can it not give better opportunities to these women? Now, once those opportunities are in place, the women can become prostitutes and do whatever they want. I just think that there wouldn't be as many.
4) Look, I have already said that I want prostitution to be legal. I well conceive of some people who even enjoy being prostitutes, although I think that that is probably a minority.

When prostitution is legalized, it would be good if efforts were put in place to give women in urban and rural areas opportunities other than prostitution. I do have a problem with it becoming the profession that impoverished people default into. A young girl or boy in a rural area may only have prostitution as viable work in order to survive. That seems to be exploitative to a cruel degree.
5) Nothing. I have said that I am perfectly fine with legal prostitution, as long is it is not the profession people default into.
6) So, I agree with you. But I will say it again: my only fear is that in rural areas prostitution will become the ONLY means of living for certain women. That's my only problem; but other than that legalize it all you want.
7) I've said it a million times now: I am perfectly fine with legalized prostitution, as long as no people are forced into it by economic conditions, because that is exploitation.
8) I think that legalizing prostitution can help lift some people out of poverty as well as solve some of the other problems you guys have brought up. On the other hand, I see this poverty as being inflicted from extra-personal forces, and I don't think prostitution is the solution every time. With the $50,000 a person our GDP offers, no one needs to be entering prostitution unless they truly desire it.



So, for the last time:

LEGALIZE IT.

I don't care. All I care about is that it is not the only thing that is available to young people, which is ALREADY the case in many places anyway.

Jam it back in, in the dark.