Why not legalize prostitution?

Food for thought: Sold as a sex slave in Europe - June 2001: SEX SLAVES: Europe's trade in women - MSNBC.com

There's a small bit specifically about Amsterdam towards the end of the article.

It's not mentioned in this article, but Amsterdam has shut down a significant part of the red light district because of massive corruption. Perhaps that's an argument about how a government can take steps to improve conditions when prostitution is legal, or perhaps it highlights problems inherent to the industry.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Wow. There's been a lot of good arguments (but also a lot of bad ones) lately on this subject.

People like me need to realize that there are indeed women who willingly become prostitutes and enjoy it. However, nothing written here has convinced me that this industry can exist in a way that doesn't take advantage of women. Even our legalized areas such as Denmark and Las Vegas are plagued with mistreatment and exploitation of sex workers. In a perfect* world perhaps women would be free to go in and out of this line of work in a way that never infringes on their human rights. But that certainly isn't the reality of the industry in today's world.

But for people who condemn prostitution on moral grounds, the failings of legalized prostitution are just a secondary point. I do believe that society's approach to sex is much more liberal now than sixty years ago. Perhaps this isn't as obvious in the polarized political climate of the United States. But even if the bible-thumpers suddenly all disappeared, I doubt very much that prostitution would suddenly become legal here or in other parts of the world. There is a fundamental moral abhorrence carried by a gigantic chunk of the world's population regardless of their religious or political leanings.

Now this says nothing about whether or not that moral abhorrence is grounds enough to outlaw prostitution. I don't like it, but does that give me the right to tell strangers that money in exchange for sex is illegal? Framing the question like that; most people will say "no". You need to approach from a different angle...

Put succinctly, lots of people dislike prostitution. They don't want their loved ones involved so they extend (force?) this view onto the people they care about: family, friends, community, an entire city, etc, etc, etc.

Since prostitution is largely illegal, it is not a heated debate in U.S. politics and consequently you don't see a lot of self-righteous jerks like me throwing their weight around. Legislators don't need to openly take a stance against prostitution since (well maybe not in this forum) the majority of people are fine with the way things are. If they aren't, they just move to or away from Nevada as necessary. Alternatively, they can write something constructive (or nasty and juvenile) on a web forum.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I don't think anyone who dislikes prostitution automatically has a "hang-up" about sex. Most people today don't adhere to the conservative stance on "no sex before marriage" but that doesn't automatically mean they are okay with prostitution. From personal and media observations it seems that most people in general do not approve of prostitution and that includes people who aren't tied down sexually by traditional conservative values. I'm willing to listen to evidence to the contrary. The overwhelming amount of laws in most countries that prohibit prostitution seems to indicate, at least for the time being, that the vast majority of people in the world disapprove of it. However, because of the way society is constantly veering towards a more liberal approach to sex, I wouldn't be surprised at all to one day see prostitution becoming legalized in more places.

How ya doing, buddy?

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Why is prostitution illegal? On what grounds should it be illegal? It is nothing more than moral legislation unless you can prove to me otherwise.

I agree, it is moral legislation. It is possible to argue on non-moral grounds like mistreatment of sex workers and corruption in the industry. You can also argue (as some have done in this thread long ago) that all laws stem from a moral foundation.

I for one am glad for some (not all) of the laws that I perceive as moral legislation. Like laws that prohibit discrimination, ponzi schemes, animal abuse, child labor, polygamy, use of certain narcotics, etc.

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I wouldn't want my kid to work in porn, but I certainly don't mind other people's kids doing it.

I feel like this is the most common attitude towards prostitution as well.

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Go back and read those over before you say that the sex industry is the only industry that takes advantage of its workers.

Did I really say something like that? If so, my apologies. It might surprise you but I don't approve of taking advantage of anyone. Your analogy works on some levels, but prostitution is a radically different industry. I've never said to a friend, "Let's go to Vegas or Amsterdam so I can buy a couch for fifty bucks." I've never heard a girl say, "I wish they'd change the laws here so I can work at a cash register or be a store manager". I must also confess, Grail, that I find some of your arguments confusing. You take great care to illustrate how a legalized industry can still abuse its workers. Then you seem to propose that legalizing prostitution will invariably make it safer. Maybe in a perfect world, but even places where it is legal, prostitutes can and do endure mistreatment on a scale not applicable to even the least fortunate Wal-mart employee. From my research this may not be an inherent fault with the sex industry, but rather that it has a tendency to attract the wrong sort of people. People who corrupt the industry to a point that it becomes as bad as places where it is illegal.

Am I correct Grail, in saying that you wouldn't want your loved ones being prostitutes or wal-mart employees for the exact same reason? Like you, I wouldn't want my kids working in either business. But my reasons for not being a prostitute are different than my reasons for not working at wal-mart.

How ya doing, buddy?

Sorry, I really have to disagree that prostitution is like every other single job you see in this country. I actually find it to be extraordinarily different for a variety of reasons. I do see your point, I just don't agree with it.

And yes, government regulation would set up the framework for a safer working environment for prostitutes. Unfortunately, even in places where it is legal, people continue to break the law and sex workers are still being mistreated. This is the major reason why half the red-light district in Amsterdam was being shut down. (I haven't followed that story in months, anyone up to date?) No matter how bad it gets at wal-mart, people aren't going to force you to work without pay. You won't get threatened of physically abused if you choose not to comply. I don't think we should be so quick to legalize prostitution until the places that allow it have fully sorted out their problems with it. (Actually, I don't think we should legalize it ever)

I have to agree with YouMad again, at least for the most part. The only way I see prostitution infringing on the rights of uninvolved people is the shame it brings on family and friends. It also spreads some disease, there's no denying that...but I haven't seen any statistics on that. I can stand behind the "burden to society" platform, but I'm fully aware that it is not a conclusive argument nor is not a universal belief.

Well, I'm also against the recreational use of certain narcotics even though it only affects the user. You may argue that an addict with a costly and reprehensible drug problem can be a burden on a family and a community, but you can make the same argument about a prostitute or their clients. Likewise, Ponzi schemes only affect those looking to invest money. Nobody is forced to invest. But I still feel it is morally wrong to deceive people that way. Should it be illegal to lie or deceive? or is it just immoral? Hmm, both probably.

Should it be illegal to have sex for money? Or is it just immoral? We all have our answers to both questions, but the arguments from both sides are strong enough that neither side will earn a clear victory. At least we know what the other side is thinking.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Hey Grail, I think you understand a lot of my rantings pretty well, I think you're just flabbergasted that anyone actually thinks the way I do.

You make a great point in pointing out that the system is apparently working in Amsterdam when they finally start shutting down the places that need to be shut down. I'd be happier if the system worked faster though. The legality of prostitution is what caused the industry to grow so big that it couldn't be effectively policed. Lives have been ruined and there is no guarantee that 1. All sex workers are being treated well now and 2. It won't happen again. As you mentioned, the red light district has been around for YEARS and during many of those years people ignored the laws and still exploited sex workers in heinous ways. Those rules and regulations are a good thing, but they aren't 100% enforced. Not even close as it turns out. If there wasn't any prostitution to begin with it wouldn't be a problem. Both of us are naive though; me for hoping that prostitution can be eliminated altogether, and you for thinking that laws will guarantee equal and satisfactory protection for every sex worker. Whether it is deserved or not, there is an unsavory element attached to the sex industry that affects how it is run.

My argument about how prostitution affects uninvolved people was SUPPOSED to be weak. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Read again and you'll (hopefully) see I was actually agreeing with YouMad that prostitution does NOT infringe on other people's rights. At the same time I still defend my position to endorse moral legislation. Poorly stated and confusing so you have my apologies. (See, I apologized, sorta) You can disagree with my 'perception' of moral legislation (i.e. Ponzi, etc.) but the real question is whether or not ANY moral legislation is appropriate. I say "yes", many others here have stated "no".

I'm sorry, but with regards to disease I can't see much of a comparison between prostitutes and...well, any other industry. Despite my strong disagreement, my stance against prostitution is not really based on that. I'm a more of a moral elitist than a concerned medical practitioner.

I've heard the argument about "I don't want my daughter involved, but let's make it safe for other people's daughters". By and large, nobody likes prostitution. Everyone wants to keep the ones they love away from it. In this particular case I understand, but strongly disagree, with the notion of legalizing something bad just so those poor souls who do partake in it can be safer. I'd much rather keep anyone from doing it in the first place. I'm aware that such a goal is unrealistic, but it's still worth the fight in order to reduce the number of people involved. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but at the same time I don't think anyone can conclusively state that myself and others are clearly in the wrong.

I'm not morally opposed to video games like I am to prostitution. I believe when you play games the way they are intended to be used it's a benign diversion. But as you mentioned, even something like video games can be abused to a point where it is sad, disgusting, and reprehensible. By contrast, prostitution (in my eyes at least) is sad, disgusting, and reprehensible right from the start.

The religious opposition to prostitution is obvious. But as mentioned, opposition also comes from a huge yet separate population of diverse thinkers. It is unfair to categorize anyone as "endorsing unsafe working conditions" or "against privacy rights". Usually it's people like me that make irresponsible broad sweeping statements like... "You oppose prostitution? Oh, so you WANT sex workers to be exploited, diseased, and physically harmed?" First of all, I don't want there to be ANY sex workers. Second, it should be obvious at this point that the issue is far more complicated than that.

FELIPE NO

Am I on crazy pills? Wait, don't answer that. Still, are we all supposed to believe that there's no significant difference between a prostitute and a coal miner? That the strife of a wal-mart cashier is identical to the strife of street walker? That using your arms or your mind for a career is in no way different than using your genitals?

I know I have a mild case of insanity, but I still can't wrap my brain around the idea that prostitution is just like any other job. Sex makes everything different. Not always worse, certainly not always better, but different and profoundly so.

It has been mentioned repeatedly that laws could be used to protect prostitutes if it was legalized. We kind of have laws to protect people right now. Those laws say, "Prostitution is bad, don't do it". We could legalize it and then trust its practitioners to be nice to their sex workers. But looking at areas where prostitution is legal indicates that the people in this industry are all too willing to bend the rules to suit their financial gain. Again, the sexual nature of the business makes a world of difference. Comparisons do not and should not apply.

Please, please, PLEASE stop assuming that those who oppose prostitution are pleased with how illegal sex workers are being exploited. That makes as little sense to us as it does to everyone else.

Victimless profession: Yeah, drug dealers I suppose. Whether or not you agree that is victimless won't change anyone's mind about prostitution. Apples and oranges.

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I've seen analogy after analogy after analogy, and frankly those don't serve to strengthen the argument for prostitution. If you'd like I'll come up with my own analogies. They might be moderately clever but do nothing to clarify the issue because prostitution bears little similarities to other professions no matter how much anyone wishes it to be otherwise.

Prostitution is like being a mortician

• Cannot discuss or let young children see people doing their work
  Can't even do your work openly in public. Closed doors are a must.
  Good advice to skip going to your child's "bring-your-parent-to-school" day
  You may have to work closely and touch unattractive people
  Children under the age of 18 should not be allowed in this field of work

Okay, that's not even remotely as clever as I had hoped. But it's an analogy much like the ones that have been thrown at me which is to say it is pretty lame support for my argument. Why? BECAUSE BEING A MORTICIAN AND A PROSTITUTE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. (Those crazy pills have not worn off yet). Just like a prostitute is different than a clerk, a boxer, a store manager, or a guy telling other people how to grow marijuana. On the other hand, now I want to outlaw morticians.

Pang, I really don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. Especially with such an inaccurate portrayal of my views. Maybe you know people like that, but your presume way too much about me.

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Sex makes everything different. Not always worse, certainly not always better, but different and profoundly so.

is a far cry from

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perception of sex as some kind of witchcraft that corrupts everything it touches is hard to rationalize

I don't have a major problem if sex is a very casual "no-big-deal" kind of thing for adults. But the idea that sex is just "nerve endings and lube" is an absurd simplification of an act that ties intense physical, mental, and emotional aspects together in a unique fashion. Perhaps I'm taking your little quip too seriously, but you are arguing that sex does NOT change things. So I'm not sure how else to react. Let's say a little girl asks her father about becoming a prostitute. The father would be a complete arse if he told her that it was just like being a boxer. Why? Because the sexual nature of being a prostitute changes the issue. Those differences need to be addressed. To explain it as just "nerve endings and lube" is inadequate and irresponsible.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Ugh, I just deleted one of my multiparagraph rants. (...and there was much rejoicing...) I think some of you are expecting something profoundly insightful or stupid when I mentioned that "sex changes everything". I think I explained myself already within the context I established. Oh well, here's attempt #2...

Take any job other than a prostitute. Now make regular sexual activity with clients a part of that job. To me that changes everything about the job (which was the point I failed to make apparently). Boom. Simple. Nothing ground breaking or amazing. Just the obvious.

Here's a play I wrote:
"Hello boss, you wanted to see me?"
"Hey KillerPineapple, you need to start having sex with strangers as part of your job if you want to get paid."
"But that changes everything."
"How?"
"IT JUST DOES!"
"I don't get it. Explain."
"Um...It's magic?"
"How old are you KillerPineapple?"
"Sex changes the job, can't you see that?"
"Oh stop putting it up on a pedestal."
"Can't I just continue selling cheaply made household products?"
"You're selling your body for sex now. How is that any different?"
"Well, when you put it like that- I guess there really is no difference."
"Great! I thought you were one of those bible-told-me-so nuts."
"You don't understand the concept of sarcasm, do you?"
"Get the *%#$ out of my bedroom."
"This is an office."

There's nowhere I can't reach.

This rape tangent is awfully interesting. Worthy of it's own topic? Hmm... Love to comment but my posts get too long as it is.

I think the anti-prostitution voices here are being focused on in the wrong way. People seem to get most upset at Tamburlaine for the things he says that don't even apply much to his overall opinion. I don't necessarily agree with him on all points of course. But, as I've pointed out several times already, I don't necessarily DISagree on all points with those who favor legalized prostitution.

And for myself, I'm really trying to go for the "prostitution is morally wrong" platform, but I keep getting drawn into debates on mistreatment of sex workers, exploitation, and attitudes towards sexual behaviors.

Arguing about my attitudes on sex (what makes it a big deal, etc.) is getting closer to the mark, but my real thoughts (deranged as they are) can't possibly be conveyed if even just a few respectable people operate on the assumption that I find sex "dirty" or "wrong". I do enjoy when people confront me on my reasoning that trading sex for money is wrong. Hmm, maybe not enjoy, but I respect that conflict of opinions even if it's served with an extra helping of insults. I definitely understand how the pro-prostitution lobby thinks, but admittedly I haven't exactly been enlightened by the information posted in this topic. Not because I'm learning impaired, but my understanding of the counter arguments was fairly accurate to begin. I haven't really been surprised by any of the good arguments made in favor of prostitution. The only surprises were the bad ones.

Of course throwing an impromptu play into the midst doesn't help my cause, unless you've been following the topic with a magnifying class and can appreciate satire. Bleh, I thought it was worth at least a chuckle.

If I had to guess, I doubt very much that most of us here go through life utterly perplexed and confused about why the powers-that-be made prostitution illegal in most places. Are the people who stand in disbelief at the things I say likewise shocked by the countless others who agree with me. It is one thing to disagree, it is quite another to be completely unaware of why the other side disagrees with you.

So yeah, I think prostitution is morally wrong. I support the right for lawmakers to make laws based on these moral values. Not unconditionally. Not based on religion. Not based on one culture, but something with near universal agreement across the governing body. Does prostitution have near universal agreement in any locale? Oftentimes,'Yes' when it involves you or your loved ones. So in Joe Schmoe's house, nobody is allowed to be a prostitute. It becomes 'mostly' (but not overwhelmingly so) when applied to only to strangers. Good enough to make a law out of?

I feel like it's this natural response to prostitution being wrong that drives the current laws into place. Oh, we could go much further into the nuances about that. Lucky for me, I don't need to clarify myself because people have already answered on my behalf. Apparently "It just does" and "Sex is witchcraft!" provide a better portrait of my thoughts than the things I actually think and write. Sorry for the sarcasm. Additional apologies to the people who had the courtesy to argue about the things I've actually written. Just for the record, I'm much more sarcastic than I am bitter. Honest!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Well, it is illegal to commit suicide. (Not saying if I agree or not) Many narcotics are illegal as is gambling in most places. I hardly think that the government will ever allow gang members kill each other in an isolated field even if every single one of them is okay with the risk. And while you may disagree with those laws, I'm just trying to point out that there is a thought process out there that many share which states: There are some things people just shouldn't be allowed to do. Again, this is hardly conclusive and wide open to debate, but in the end when a law has to be written people weigh the issue and still end up making laws that tell people what they can and cannot do. As society's perceptions and morals evolve we are sure to see some of these laws change. This is a constant trend in history, more often than not for the better. However, society as a whole may remain steadfast on some issues and the small minority will feel infringed upon. Prostitution and drugs are interesting because the general consensus is to keep it illegal, but the amount of people who disagree is significant enough that their voices must be heard. (Not so for people who want to stick their hand in a blender) Loose comparisons and analogies may abound but each issue must be decided on its own based on what makes it unique.

My stance that I feel like prostitutes are harming themselves seems implied, but is doesn't accurately define my position nor does it hinge upon it. That same feeling of discomfort people get thinking about a family member being a prostitute gets carried over to the faceless general public by legislators. That deep seeded feeling doesn't directly address whether or not I feel an individual prostitute is harming herself because of her job. And this deep rooted moral vibe isn't the same as having a child that's gay, republican, or a poet...My natural instincts make me hope my child never becomes one of these things, but most people still have it within themselves to tolerate, accept, and love. They can even continue to love a family member who becomes a prostitute, but many do not have the capacity to tolerate that occupation or its patrons.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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"It makes me uncomfortable" is definitely not a valid basis on which to hang legislation. If I could ban anything that made me uncomfortable then we'd never get to have this conversation because liberty-hating mob-rule enthusiasts would be locked up.

If all anyone offered is "It makes me uncomfortable" I'd have to agree with you. My basis begins with, but encompasses far more than just that sentiment. I'm not going to spend time repeating myself or others but the details have been put out there. I wish there were more people representing my side, but as devil's advocate; From what basis do you think current laws developed from?

And I thought I outlined how being uncomfortable with anything isn't enough to make a law out of. The thought process goes way beyond that starting point.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Wow. Boy did I miss a lot. Over the weekend this thread has evolved from mildly interesting, to frustratingly repetitive, to irrelevant, to whatever you call this latest...um...stuff.

Here's four reasons other people have given me about why prostitution continues to be illegal most places...

patriarchal misogyny and aristocratic concerns: I had a weird reaction to these two reasons because I think they can also be given as reasons for why prostitution was and is legal in certain areas. Don't feel it applies as much today except in places where it is illegal and exploitative in nature. But on second glance, they still make sense as reasons why prostitution is illegal, but again, I don't feel it applies as much today. It would be my guess that many lawmakers would be offended if you attributed their stance on prostitution to these reasons. Remnants of these may still be around but I don't think they are the primary force behind outlawing prostitution.

religious bigotry: Definitely more apparent in areas dominated by religious conservatives. But that doesn't mean it is the predominant reason. Many parts of the world controlled by liberal/progressive legislators still have no desire to legalize prostitution, at least not at a significant enough level to warrant any revision of the law.

the desire to undermine the status of women: I really don't agree with this at all. First of all, it kind of implies that women (for or against the issue) have no say in the matter even if they are legislators. Second, most people against prostitution are also against male prostitution. The ratio of men to women in this industry tempts us to approach it as a gender issue. However, if (ew, a hypothetical) the gender roles were reversed, prostitution would still be outlawed. (Yes, I can see how switching the genders would change certain elements of the issue, but I cannot see how it would change my opinion on prostitution)

As for my credentials, I scored 10 out of 10 on Facebook's "Guess Which Disney Film This Is From". Plus I squeezed one of those love-meter's at Dave&Busters and it said I was a "Red Hot Cassanova".

How ya doing, buddy?