[Multiplatform] Fallout 3 - Guns with Oblivion

Scans of the Gameinformer Article.

I'm just gonna copy what I told Acer for this one:

Quote:

[23:09] acerbanditgff: oh man what do you think of the new FO3 scans?
[23:10] IamBradylama: haven't seen 'em yet
[23:10] IamBradylama: link pls
[23:10] IamBradylama: also i have to poopoos
[23:10] acerbanditgff: http://kotaku.com/gaming/fallout-3/n...ans-269517.php
[23:10] acerbanditgff: lol
[23:14] IamBradylama: I just stopped following Fallout 3 altogether once I started following the Ron Paul campaign.
[23:15] acerbanditgff: heh
[23:15] acerbanditgff: just got finished watching that fff thing
[23:15] acerbanditgff: crazy stuff
[23:15] IamBradylama: Oh haha so far I'm not impressed with black cowboy, super alien, and 4 dudes.
[23:16] IamBradylama: And I've just looked at the top of the first page.
[23:19] acerbanditgff: well at least the game doesn't look like oblivion ass
[23:20] IamBradylama: No shit.,
[23:20] IamBradylama: Another thing
[23:20] acerbanditgff: characters actually look good this time
[23:20] IamBradylama: http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/alb...2276&mode=next
[23:20] IamBradylama: Vaults aren't supposed to advertise themselves.
[23:21] IamBradylama: also lollin again at black cowboy.
[23:21] acerbanditgff: i wonder what skill black cowboys come with
[23:22] IamBradylama: Dunno
[23:22] IamBradylama: Also I'm not digging the Pip-Boy 3000
[23:22] IamBradylama: Since it's got an analog input
[23:22] IamBradylama: good
[23:22] IamBradylama: But a digital interface.
[23:22] IamBradylama: Confusing.
[23:22] IamBradylama: I'm also not reading the actual article yet.
[23:23] IamBradylama: OK, the lack of level scaling is a VERY good thing.
[23:23] IamBradylama: It might actually be worth playing through.
[23:24] acerbanditgff: i wonder if character movement animations will actually look good
[23:25] acerbanditgff: i mean they'd have to be if they're doing a good 3rd person optional perspective that they want people to use
[23:25] IamBradylama: Well they were shit for Oblivion so who knows?
[23:25] IamBradylama: http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/alb...2278&mode=next
[23:25] IamBradylama: also the Super Mutants look like shit.
[23:25] acerbanditgff: looks better than most oblivion monsters
[23:26] acerbanditgff: i do wonder if his mace is a stand-in oblivion prop though
[23:26] IamBradylama: Nope
[23:27] IamBradylama: I think that's some kind of fire hydrant.
[23:27] IamBradylama: Also the VATS system completely misses the fucking point.
[23:28] acerbanditgff: is that the i'm gonna shoot at your junk b/c it's green thing?
[23:28] IamBradylama: Yep
[23:28] IamBradylama: It's confusing
[23:29] IamBradylama: It's like they're trying to appeal to the shooter camp and the tactical camp at the same time.
[23:29] IamBradylama: And failing at both.
[23:29] acerbanditgff: well so far I like the level design
[23:29] IamBradylama: Hey
[23:29] IamBradylama: Level design is about more than just scenery. =P
[23:30] acerbanditgff: true
[23:30] acerbanditgff: but it looks way more active than oblvion
[23:30] IamBradylama: Gore looks promising.
[23:30] acerbanditgff: er busy
[23:30] acerbanditgff: oblivion was like lol we have lots of rocks and grass i hope you enjoy
[23:31] IamBradylama: http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/alb...2280&mode=next
[23:31] IamBradylama: 1. Yes it was a fire hydrant
[23:31] acerbanditgff: and then i'm like god damn it i just want to shoot 5 cougars and it's like noooo lol your gonna enjoy every frame of this for 10 seconds
[23:31] IamBradylama: 2. The Behemoth looks like a Tactics Super Mutant (a.k.a. shitty)
[23:31] IamBradylama: 3. A nuclear catapult is STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID
[23:32] IamBradylama: This isn't fucking Starship Troopers.
[23:32] acerbanditgff: did you ever fiddle with nuclear weapons in the first two?
[23:32] IamBradylama: Nope
[23:32] IamBradylama: Nukes were the size of the Fat Man bomb.
[23:32] acerbanditgff: how about dirty bombs?
[23:32] IamBradylama: Nope
[23:32] IamBradylama: Miniaturization never existed in Fallout since transistors never won out over vacuum tubes.
[23:33] IamBradylama: The concept of a tactical nuke, much less a handheld one in Fallout's setting is a TREMENDOUS stretch.
[23:34] acerbanditgff: doesn't this game take place hundreds of years after the first two or something?
[23:34] IamBradylama: I dunno
[23:34] IamBradylama: I've heard that it takes place 10 years after Fallout 2.
[23:34] IamBradylama: You also have to keep in mind
[23:34] IamBradylama: Fallout took place 80 years after the bombs
[23:34] IamBradylama: Fallout 2 was 80 years after Fallout.
[23:35] IamBradylama: Technology didn't advance in any way worth shit.
[23:35] IamBradylama: The Enclave was able to make Vertibirds and upgraded power armors, but they didn't have the manufacturing capability to go much beyond that.
[23:35] IamBradylama: Especially mini-nukes.
[23:35] IamBradylama: I mean
[23:36] IamBradylama: Power Armor is powered by miniature fusion reactors.
[23:36] IamBradylama: But a tactical nuke that can be shot yards away?
[23:36] IamBradylama: Come on.
[23:36] acerbanditgff: well depending on how much time has gone you never know
[23:36] IamBradylama: I'm also not impressed with the promise of 9-12 endings.
[23:37] IamBradylama: STALKER had 7 different endings and the only ones based on your actions in the game were McGuffins
[23:37] IamBradylama: Though interestingly enough they were more interesting than the TRUE endings.
[23:37] IamBradylama: Having overall endings is also a serious step down from Fallout's faction-specific endings, but it's better than Oblivion.
[23:38] IamBradylama: Ok, end of article and the nuke looks pretty sweet.
[23:38] acerbanditgff: lolz i'm a dragon sacrifice get a new king lol
[23:38] IamBradylama: lol
[23:38] IamBradylama: BIG ASS DEMON BATTLE
[23:38] IamBradylama: The End
[23:38] IamBradylama: or not
[23:38] IamBradylama: Fuck around do whatever this game doesn't have an actual "ending"
[23:39] IamBradylama: My impression:
[23:39] IamBradylama: This'll be better than Oblivion.
[23:39] IamBradylama: But it shouldn't have been Fallout 3.
[23:39] IamBradylama: haha the scans have 426 comments at NMA.
[23:40] acerbanditgff: how are they taking it?
[23:41] IamBradylama: Mixed
[23:41] IamBradylama: It all looks nice
[23:41] IamBradylama: But from a Fallout perspective
[23:41] IamBradylama: It also looks like shit.
[23:41] IamBradylama: Basically they don't like all of the stuff I just harped to you on.
[23:41] IamBradylama: Also apparently Karma traits are Live achievements. =/
[23:42] IamBradylama: Remember when people played games to have fun and not to get Live achievements?
[23:42] IamBradylama: We used to walk fifteen miles in the rain and the snow
[23:42] IamBradylama: just to play Night of the Tentacle
[23:45] IamBradylama: Also, allow me to go further into depth on the super mutants
[23:46] IamBradylama: From an artistic perspective they're absolute shit
[23:46] IamBradylama: The Muties in Fallout and Fallout 2 were deformed, sure
[23:47] IamBradylama: But they had noticeable human traits
[23:47] IamBradylama: They weren't just humanoids with huge muscles.
[23:47] IamBradylama: You could see Muties like Harry and Marcus as people.
[23:47] IamBradylama: These mutants are just monstrous.
[23:48] IamBradylama: They remind me more of the Locusts in Gears of War than something that used to be a person.
[23:48] acerbanditgff: yeah i got the impression that they were exagerating in these pictures
[23:49] acerbanditgff: but they didn't look like oblivion ass so I was kind of happy
[23:49] IamBradylama: It's still not enough.

After reading the article it just gets worse. The new water chip quest comes in the form of Liam dissappearing and you have to go find him. Super Mutants are around "every corner" and cars apparently have enough free energy to create miniature nuclear explosions. Not only is it stupid, it's a canon issue, since the Highwayman was a one-of-a-kind fusion cell-powered auto.

The best thing I can say about it, is that it looks better than Oblivion.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Aardark

Man, shut up! I would rather have no Fallout 3 than this pile of shit! Did you see the fucking vault suits? They're not tight enough! They're baggy as fuck! What, is the vault dweller some fucking wigger now? That is not the canon! THE DEVELOPERS have a goddamn OBLIGATION to give me a proper sequel to Fallout (don't get me started on Fallout 2, that shit is not canon, they had some Monty Python shit in that shit), I am a serious fucking gamer and have a right to that. Bethesda has no right to do this shit that they are doing. Man, I'm not even going into what I think about PipBoy having digital interface, or I'd have a fucking brain aneurysm right fucking here and now. Shit, son. Bethesda is fucking us so hard, and you're okay with that? Get out. Yes, goddamn, no Fallout 3 would be infinitely better than this... travesty.

Yes, Aardy, no Fallout 3 is better than something that turns the themes of the original on its head. The skin-tight vault suits were a mainstay of the EC comics that Fallout's art was inspired by. A departure from that just makes the new game seem much more generic.

This could've been titled Apoc Romp and chances are the NMA crowd would've been excited about it.

Quote:

I think it's possible to enforce "arbitrary misses" without being ridiculous.

They could effectively do it the same way as Deus Ex, but the whole VATS thing sort of implies a dual system for ballistics.

Most amazing jew boots

Quote:

"Well, let's not plagiarize Fallout, let's do something completely different!"

Since when is plagiarization positive? =/

Vault Boy and SPECIAL are both iconic, but that doesn't mean that they should be whored out like a soft drink just because. Being Fallout didn't make Brotherhood of Steel any more of a success.

Quote:

Yeah, I don't completely like it either, but for every little thing we nitpick about being out of place, I'm sure Bethesda is going to try hard to remind us that we are indeed playing Fallout (In the same way that someone making a video game based on something they like will try to reference their favorite bits a lot) if they really are fans of it.

I'd really love to be proven wrong, but we already know they've turned the series to a completely different genre. Considering Bethesda's awful track record, I see little reason to have faith.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I like how they said they fixed it for guns but didn't actually say that they've fixed it. Any questions will be ignored, though, since Ashley and Gstaff both indicate that all information is going to come through magazine exclusives and press releases.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

What fuckhead decided to put the Final Fantasy name infront of this game called Tactics. Those jackasses totally ruined the series and bastardized everything we know and love about these games. There's no way this game can be any good since it's not the same exact thing I've played before.

I like how FFT wasn't actually marketed as a Final Fantasy sequel. It's good to see you put in some effort tho.

Quote:

Though to be less ridiculous, Fallout Tactics was still faithful to the visual design of... well, Fallout.

Tactics was post-apocalypticky like Fallout, but the problem was that the art direction was the post-apocalyptic near future from the contemporary perspective. With M-16s, Humvees, and all that other junk and crap.

Also the Super Mutants were terrible.

Quote:

Guess there is something to say about being skeptical and pleasantly surprised, though.

The great thing about being a pessimist is that you can never be disappointed.

Unless you're proven right.

Most amazing jew boots

Quote:

I like how FFT wasn't actually marketed as a Final Fantasy sequel. It's good to see you put in some effort tho.
Most people don't count it as a "traditional" Final Fantasy, though. At least it was common not to way back when.

Well, it isn't. Neither is Tactics traditional Fallout.

It was pretty easy to get over since it wasn't an actual Fallout sequel, and I still think it's kinda fun. (don't tell NMA)

Quote:

I imagine that it didn't garner quite as much criticism as Bethesda current thing, though.

Back then Roshambo was an administrator. Rosh was to the Tactics developers as The Incredible Hulk is to a generic cityscape. He's even referenced in the game as a bitter old man, but apparently also had something to do with reversing a bad design decision.

I'd like to say people saw this coming from a mile away, but the NMA thread had 400+ comments. Their general IQ took a nose dive a little over a year ago.


Also, the scans were posted in this Something Awful thread. Get 'em while they last.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Monkey King

You don't just take someone else's established series and then go way into left field with it.*
*No I'm not saying it's that bad, just using it as an obvious example.

Dude, that's not cool.

That's never cool.

Quote:

Good on Roshambo if he did get something changed on the game. I wasn't there, but I'll take the good word for what it's worth.

Rosh used to be a pretty intimidating guy and actually worked in the gaming industry. Now he's making his own RPGs with a writing team.

What really keeps Tactics from entering a "favorites" list, is partially because there's only 3 Fallout games worth playing and because in it's own genre it's not that hot. FFT is still a great tactical RPG, but Tactics is still overshadowed by Jagged Alliance.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

And Brady, FFT had chocobos and a guy named Cid (and possibly moogles, I forget), that makes it as much as a Final Fantasy as anything else up until FFX-2.

If only all the other Final Fantasies had grid-based combat.

Quote:

I grant you the nuclear catapult is kind of silly. It's not like FO2, with the Magic Purple Robe you got for playing along with FO2's constant Monty Python references. Oh, and the shotgun weddings to useless meatsacks. And the MAGIC DREAM SEQUENCES urging you along on an unwinnable quest. Or the plants with thorns in their mouths and when they open their mouths they spit thorns at you. THAT shit made sense! Not like a weapon that makes things go boom. That is UNREASONABLE

In all fairness, nobody is arguing that Fallout 2 wasn't stupid.

I don't think any license actually takes a game, turns it into a completely different genre, and then markets it as the next part in a series. It's the reason they didn't call Mario 64 "Mario X."

It's why they called it Final Fantasy Tactics and not Final Fantasy 8. Remember how pissed off people were about FFX-2? Nevermind that it was actually more interesting than normal Final Fantasies, people were still going into big nerd rage.

In series people expect to be marketed more of the same. When you market a game that's fundamentally different as a direct sequel, it implies that no other games in the series are going to be like the predecessors.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Colonel Skills

I'm pretty sure they called it that because it was on the N64. You know, or else WipEout, Star Fox, Ogre Battle, Mario Kart, etc would all have proper numbers.

Following that logic, they should've called Metroid Prime, Metroid Cubed. It's not because of a marketing tie in, it's because the games exist within a franchise but not as a part of an established series.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I suddenly feel like everybody is losing this argument.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Aardark

You're the one losing this argument, because Fallout 3 will fucking rock. Morrowind would have been a good game if it wasn't for the lame, uninspired fantasy setting. Now, Morrowind with the setting of Fallout, well, I would play the shit out of that game.

This must be some other kind of parody.

Quote:

Yes! Different is bad! Always! Thank you but goodbye =/

This isn't what I'm saying, Pang. Don't act like u no.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Aardark

What, no, why parody. I do think that Fallout 3 will be good

You understand that this is as equally a fallacious reasoning as Fallout fans who claim that the game will definitely suck, right?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

RTw/P is a very different mechanic compared to using turns. All actions used to be limited by AP, now they're like a super power.

There used to be an element of tension where you performed actions in your turn and prayed that the next shot didn't crit and ventilate your torso. Now any kind of damage dealt is likely to be within predictable bounds, and you don't have to wait on the AI to perform its subroutines since all actions occur simultaneously (unless you pause for super shot). Now you have action-based tension, but once the player is aware of the system and how to fight, battles aren't as tense anymore, which is probably why they're hyping the Nemesis Behemoth and the stupid as hell nuke-a-pult as opposed to any kitschy new ray guns they could've designed.

They might not even get dialog right:

Quote:

Q: Is this another Oblivion but with a Fallout theme?

A: In short: no. Sure, Fallout 3 plays primarily from a first-person perspective like Oblivion, and conversations with NPCs use a similar style of dialogue tree, but combat, questing, character creation and most importantly the tone and style of the gameplay shares more in common with Fallout 1 and 2 than Oblivion.

Dialogue tree is an important distinction to make, since none of the screenshots actually showed how dialogue worked, and while Oblivion's wiki system could offer branching choices, the actual trees followed a straight line from each base.

It's already not going to play like the predecessors by virtue of the combat alone, now we're not even sure if they can get NPC interaction right.

Quote:

Whatever genius Feargus et al may have once had is pretty much defunct. What have they done lately? The unplayable NWN2? The unfinished KOTOR2? Or, hey, let's crank it back to their LAST failed company, Troika, and their buggy unfinished masterpieces TOEE and Bloodlines. If Bethesda is making "Oblivion with guns", Obsidian would only steer it toward "NWN2 with guns", andI don't really want to have to choose a class for my Vault Dweller and then spend hours sucking up to the random yahoos in my party so they'll really really like me!

"NWN2 with guns" would actually be much more like Fallout than "Oblivion with guns." Both games use essentially the same presentation, but with different combat mechanics. Nevermind that the Black Isle guys were working on Van Buren before they were forced to shut down, and that KOTOR 2 was more interesting than any piece of shit Bioware and Bethesda have crapped out in years.

Quote:

This whole argument is based on such silly assumptions about development. SMB1 was a huge hit for Nintendo but nobody would reasonably assume that Legend of Zelda was just "Mario with Swords".

Fucking Earth to Pang. People are arguing on the premise that they are marketing a completely different game as a sequel. They did not market Legend of Zelda as SMB2. Stop falling back on this fallacious reasoning.

I was speaking idiomatically.

A lot of Fallout fans think less of Fallout 2. Think maybe this is a trend?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Van Buren, Black Isle's in-house Fallout 3 project had already made the jump to 3D, and the texture work makes everything look as if the backgrounds were painted. It was high quality stuff and would've been balanced for turn-based (Interplay demanded multiplayer), but Interplay shut down the studio so they could dump all their money in Brotherhood of Steel, which sold a grand total of 17,000 copies.

FELIPE NO

Nobody is disputing this. What they are disputing is making a franchise game that doesn't play like its predecessors and billing it as a sequel. If this was Fallout: DC there wouldn't be much problem, but with Todd Howard saying he wants to "reinvent" Fallout, and calling what is basically a shooter with pause Fallout 3, it sort of means that there's no hope in there ever being another game like the first two.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

People were predicting this change the moment Bethesda announced the acquisition of the license and they weren't happy with it then, either. There hasn't been a sequel to Fallout 2 in 9 years, that's a lot of time to sit around and talk about Fallout and other games like it, and that's part of the problem.

Fallout's become bigger than its own sphere of interest, it's become symbolic of the way CRPGs have moved since the start of the millenium. The last CRPG like it was Temple of Elemental Evil. The last good CRPG was Arcanum. Yet every new game coming out with RPG slapped on the box plays nothing like the games that people played in the late 90's, and aren't even that great at roleplaying.

Fallout 3 being turned into a 3rd Person shooter, is the affirmation that absolutely no big budget roleplaying title is going to play like the old CRPGs.

People aren't afraid of change assuming that it's change for the better, and there's absolutely nothing to indicate that Bethesda taking the helm of one of the most popular CRPG franchises to date will accomplish anything positive for the genre or roleplayers.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

No, my goal was to make a Fallout Iron Man Thread because it's a kickass idea.

Does there have to be an ulterior motive for everything?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

That's generally it, yes. Diablo had great action and people took to it like crack, so that's when everything started going downhill and RPGs became more action oriented. There were a couple of great hurrahs, though.

If the Iron Man thread inspires people to play some great roleplaying games and have community-based fun doing it, then that's also great.

As long as we're on this subject you might want to check out Age of Decadence. It's an indie CRPG being made by a 3 man team, inspired by games like Fallout and Darklands. According to the impressions given by Vault Dweller (lead design) the combat is turn-based and plays out roughly like Fallout, while performing quests often involves playing them out like a text adventure. It's also not released yet. =/ It'll be "done when it's done."

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Brady, I'm actually curious about what gameplay elements you're going to be missing about some of the older games. Are you talking about games in style similar to Baulder's Gate?

In a sense, yes, though I also think Baldur's Gate was awful for forcing a party mechanic with real-time combat.

What I'm definitely going to miss most is the turn based combat. A lot of people didn't like it and that's fine, but shooters aren't a challenge for me and it certainly won't be with a pause-targeting system. Turn-based combat always has that element of tension that I mentioned before, and I enjoy playing with a system that allows me to set my own pace in an RPG.

Then again, this is the only gameplay aspect that we know is different. Maybe everything else is making up for it, but so far it doesn't look like they're doing the setting any kind of justice.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

First person shooters are a fairly tried-and-true gameplay mechanic that generally operates within the same bounds every time. I've got the reflexes and the resourcefulness to hold my own in most of these games. I'd probably have a hard(er) time in Call of Cthulhu if I wasn't adept at making headshots with the revolver. This is why when it comes to an FPS I prefer games like the original Rainbow Sixes or Armed Assault, which are more simulationist and a single hit will fuck up your day.

Now, most turn-based games aren't simulationist, but they do provide a challenge and a sense of tension, especially in games like Fallout where a single critical hit will drop you down from full health to zilch.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Yes. That's more of a challenge than playing a game where I'm in full control, because there's always a chance that something or somebody will fuck up your shit, be it geckos or super mutants wielding rocket launchers.

It's hard to strafe in turns. =\/

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Quote:

because there's very little to penalize on execution due to the fact they're so susceptible to "prep time."

What?

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at. Execution can still be heavily penalized because all enemies present a certain amount of danger. Rushing into a situation ill-prepared for it can have disasterous consequences.

FELIPE NO

Alright, so let's review. I don't think shooters are challenging because I'm good at them. I do think turn-based games are challenging because there's a constant danger that anything can kill you, regardless of how much you've memorized.

Is there a problem with this reasoning?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

You're right, it does apply, but it's not as much of a variable. Over the course of a normal FPS game, you can effectively determine how much damage you'll take in any exchange. In a game like Fallout the amount of damage received in an exchange is indeterminable. You could get hit multiple times for 5 hitpoints or you can get hit a few times in crits. The point is that the rules of the gameworld apply to all actors, where an equal amount of damage inflicted on a normal enemy in an FPS would barely put a scratch on the player character. FPSes which do model damage from a bullet with high danger are the exceptions to the rule, and are targeted to a different audience.

Jam it back in, in the dark.