[Multiplatform] Fallout 3 - Guns with Oblivion

Because it ruins the appeal of being in control. If you've got a system where numbers keep rolling up zero even though you're hitting dead on people are gonna bitch about it.

Granted, this was how the combat operated in Vampire, but the problem with Vampire's combat is that it sucks. (like it did in general really)

It sure was intimidating watching those zeros scroll up on the werewolf though. =\/

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Matt

Brady, have you played any of the Elder Scrolls games?
Those are all first person RPGs and they all do a pretty good job in terms of combat and threats to the player.

I liked the combat in Morrowind, but "people" that posted on the ESF boards bitched about hit rolls. "If I shoot at it it should hit!" was the sentiment, even among reviewers. Out of all of them, Oblivion is definitely the most shooter like, since the only thing your PC skill impacts is damage (though it seems, not by much).

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Critical hits were done in Shogo: Mobile Armor Division. Unfortunately, the enemy had critical hits as well... thinking on it, I think Brady might find the challenge in FPS games he's looking for in that particular game.

Shogo is fuckin' solid. I don't recall how critical hits worked, though. In fact I don't even recall there being critical hits. =/

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Well, all I really remember of Shogo are the MCA levels, so that likely explains it.

Regardless, there's more to a turn-based experience than critical hits. "Critical hits" in an FPS are going to be annoying because the appeal of an FPS is supposed to be an actioney type experience where the player is placed in the control and perspective of the player. The exceptions to this are the simulationist FPSes like RB6 and ArmA, but these aren't marketed to the mainstream like Fallout 3 presumably will be.

A lot of the appeal is also purist. A turn-based system separates the player from the player character, so that the player only directs the actions of the PC instead of having the player act as the PC. It better allows the player to make in-character decisions and determine the best possible approach.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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With a game like Thief, where you're forced to use your wits and tools at hand, there's always a sense of tension that you could be seen, you could get yourself seen.

The reason that tension exists is because the guards would fuck you up, and were harder to kill once they spotted Garret.

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When the game stops, the way Turn Based does so often, the immersion ceases.

Immersion isn't the purpose of a turn-based system, which is part of why I like it so much.

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Dialogue trees, turn based combat... I don't believe in these mechanics.

Haha, that's fine, but this isn't a religion, we just have different opinions regarding how roleplaying should be. I don't roleplay by pretending that I am the player character and you do, that's great. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

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I know that right now, we haven't quite reached that level of gameplay execution. But I'm highly anticipating Bioshock because of the ideas behind this.

I remember I was anticipating Bioshock because of the prospect of NPC interaction and a breathing gameworld until it was revealed that, oh hey everything plays out in levels and gameplay is actually samey half-life type action with splicers that can produce a seemingly endless amount of grenades.

If nothing else I'll play the game for the story and setting, but not for the roleplaying that they act like it will have.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I just think it's funny that Objectivists are trolling the Bioshock boards griping about how unreasonable it is that a closed (objectivist) society fails.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Depends on how much you like first person mecha combat mixed with completely forgettable normal first person shooter combat. It's also pretty anime-ey.

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By having a top-down viewpoint and not seeing things exactly as the character would see them, isn't it then less of an in-character decision?

Only insofar as the amount of information presented to the character. Fallout is not the perfect example of this since you can see rats scurrying in tunnels on the other side of the map, but nobody is saying this can't be improved.

I thought Silent Storm's system regarding the conveyance of information is pretty classy, but it's also a squad game so if one member sees, everybody sees.

FELIPE NO

Vampire was also sorta being developed by a company whose previous experience involved Fallout, Arcanum, and ToEE. Entirely different styles of games. Plus getting a mid-production Source build didn't help the bug issue.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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I think if, say, Troika picked it up Fallout fans would still be unsatisfied.

That's just dumb.

With all of the info that's coming out now I don't see the point in arguing this much any more. Fallout 3 is going to be one of the most unoriginal hack pieces of shit in 2008. I mean, they've even got a gravity gun (Suck-o-Tron).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

If you're saying that almost every game released nowadays is a piece of shit, I guess we're not really disagreeing?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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Seriously though, I'm staying optimistic about Fallout 3 simply because it could be good. And that's good enough for me until I start reading terrible reviews and play a terrible demo.

There won't be a demo.

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but there isn't really an advantage nor is it necessary to be spiteful and pessimistic towards something before you've even played it.

The real advantage gained is for those being spiteful. The same reason Something Awful can't stop talking about NMA is the same reason I made this thread, it's fun to hate on things.

There's also the issue of the Lemons Market. The argument that you can't really judge something until you've actually played it defaults in favor of the developer, because you're paying them anyways regardless. The best stance to take in a lemons market is to identify the aspect of a lemon and call developers out on it, in the hopes that the final product will not be a lemon.

In most industries there are journalistic entities which identify the lemons for the benefit of consumers, but when information is controlled by the creators of the product, and journalistic opinion can be affected with perks then consumers have to trust their own judgment based on past experience.

Case in point:

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19573617/
A little validation from Masson, a writer for the French game magazine PC Jeux, and others like him can help tip the scales in the competitive game industry, where a cutting-edge title takes many years and millions of dollars to develop. That's why game designers, like movie studios, have learned to lavishly court such tastemakers, the guys who write for the major blogs and magazines and play a key role in today's big-bucks video game industry.

Masson added Washington to his list of world travels last month, to check out an upcoming title from the Rockville-based game studio Bethesda Softworks. The company flew Masson and about 60 other writers in from as far away as Australia and Japan to give them an early look at the company's Fallout 3, scheduled for release late next year.

In addition to an hour-long demo and chats with the game's designers, the trip included a two-night stay in downtown's swank Helix Hotel, dinner at Logan Tavern and a private party at a nightclub in Adams Morgan. Airfare, hotel, food, drinks and shuttle bus were provided, courtesy of Bethesda Softworks. Although a few attendees paid their own way, most did not.

"What we're trying to accomplish with an event like this is to have the undivided attention of the important people in our industry, that cover the industry," said Pete Hines, vice president of marketing at Bethesda Softworks, whose Fallout 3 will be set in a version of Washington that's been scorched by war. "There are a lot of titles out there competing for attention."

It looks like Bethesda Softworks is getting that attention: Fallout 3 is scheduled to soon grace the covers of 20 gamer magazines, largely as a result of the event.

Bethesda Softworks' parent company, ZeniMax, is privately held and won't disclose the game's budget, but it's not uncommon for the budgets of cutting-edge titles like Fallout 3 to exceed $20 million, including marketing costs.

With this type of investment to recoup, Hines said, his job is to whet the appetites of gamers, and that process starts with getting the press salivating. To build interest in the upcoming Navy SEAL game Rogue Warrior, for example, the company flew writers to Las Vegas, where they visited a firing range and tried sniper rifles and AK-47s.

In most industries, as with gaming, these kind of events aren't uncommon. However, as with all other industries access to these kind of perks can usually be denied because the publisher controls the nature of information. If a journalist does not allow himself to be bought, then he and his magazine is blacklisted by the publisher, and they stand to lose exclusives.

So if we can't trust journalists to be critical, then we have to be critical. It's not just about hating on something for me, it's also because I don't want people to buy a lemon, and especially don't want them thinking that a franchise should be defined by lemons.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Yes, save the ignorant masses... from themselves?

I like to think of it as a public service, but really it's just a hobby.

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They already have. The reason I stopped posting at NMA and became a Codex member is because the Codex actually has the potential to affect game development with indies or other devs. There's a thread right here where half the Codex explains to a Gamespy editor why he isn't doing his job. It's easier than actually creating our own games because some of us actually have lives outside of gaming.

Then again, what the fuck do you care what people do with their free time? Or did "this is a hobby" not get through to you?

I was speaking idiomatically.

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You haven't convinced me I've said anything, well, stupid. Not yet, anyway. I'm sure it's not beyond your scope and whatever.

I'm pretty sure we've already come to the conclusion that you haven't really said anything stupid and that we disagree fundamentally in opinion. Don't think I'm attacking you, because I'm not.

I also think you're confusing what I'm talking about in regards to my hobby. It isn't just gaming or Fallout, talking about games and exposing lemons is my hobby. I've already written quite a bit of material concerning my own reviews of several games, and a series of (unfinished) papers on how to go about designing a CRPG. If you want to read some of them, I can send them to you, and really the one I'm most proud of was my review for Just Cause. I posted most of them in my chocojournal because I don't actually think it's serious business, it's just a hobby.

This line obviously becomes blurred in regards to Fallout because it's my favorite gaming franchise. Granted I'm acting pretty crazy over Fallout, but then it's also something that's important to me. Nobody said that you had to care, because the message is out there for anybody that does.

People react this way because they feel that the general public has lost all sense of taste. Granted it's all a meaningless struggle into oblivion until "good taste" is redefined by the fad of the era, but I'm at least trying to have fun getting there. (oblivion)

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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No one's killed your fucking mother, stop talking like this. A genre is dying, were you there for Freespace 2 and Space Sims on Computers?

I actually bought Space Force: Rogue Universe because it's the only privateer-esque space sim and it's mediocre at best.

The death of a genre never gets any easier. Instead of taking elements from text-based games that would enhance games in other genres they were discarded entirely. All we've gotten out of CRPGs are the stats, and that's not roleplaying.

Demanding that people get involved in the industry is honestly too much to ask, because they're already involved in other matters. To be honest, I actually used to want to be a gaming journalist until I figured my efforts would be wasted. Now I want to teach history.

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Based off one of Brady's entries, a developer just took a pot shot at the Fallout community. Who's got more cred to the common man, the community or the developer?

It was Allen Rausch, an editor for Gamespy who said in his official capacity as a Gamespy representative that Fallout fans should catch a disease and die.

He was also one of the marketing managers for Fallout Tactics (not a dev), so he hates a community because he tried to sell them a game that they didn't want.

He's a virtual nobody, and his opinion carries about as much weight as Fallout fans.

FELIPE NO

No, right, I see what you're getting at. There are far too many people even in discussions that are all talk. It's never enough to simply say "Capcom isn't even trying," they actually have to demonstrate why. That's too much, though, when people are just trying to look for somebody that agrees with them.

In all discussions the burden is on participants to be informed about the subject matter, and to articulate their points with reason, not fall back on memes and talking points.

It's the biggest reason why I don't post at NMA anymore, because the influx of ESF members have created a general IQ crash, where new members are wishing 9/11 events on Bethsoft studios.

If that's what you're getting at, then I agree that nobody should be tolerating that bullshit.

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And the uninformed guy who reads it is gonna trust who? Yeah.

All the more reason to "inform" them.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

As much as I do love Space Rangers 2, it's honestly the exception to the rule. If more games start incorporating text adventures that would be fantastic, but until then it's kind of sad that the only people getting this are the Russians.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I dunno if anybody else is experiencing this, but since my science skill became super huge it seems like there's fewer keywords on the hack screen to choose from.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I dunno if anybody else is experiencing this, but since my science skill became super huge it seems like there's fewer keywords on the hack screen to choose from.

This doesn't even matter, quicksaving+quickloading is the easiest way to take care of the problem, just pick the first four options every time then quickload it's faster than figuring the puzzle.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Pangalin

I like how a detailed explanation of the hacking minigame takes up an entire page of the manual

Hilariously incompetent pirates ITT

share your manual.pdf on saxypunch tia

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

An ending? We'll put it in an expansion.

I was speaking idiomatically.