Religion: What it means to you

I'm a christian. I've stated in #gfchat a few times. Rat has berated me for being a very bad religious man. But thats just it. to me, religion isn't about the rules. Religion is about the spirituality. About having a personal relationship with God or whoever you may believe in. I believe in God and I believe that Jesus died on the cross to save me from the sin of the world. According to my church, because I believe that, I am a christian. So therefore I can call myself a christian. It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that drinking and getting drunk automatically makes you not a christian anymore. Just means I'm not doing things that please God. So naturally I strive to please him. Cause for crying out loud, he created me and everything, so why not. So I'm not a religious person. I'm a spiritual person.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

...

A: Why do you believe God created the universe?
T: Because the Bible says he did.
A: Why do you believe the Bible?
T: Because it's the word of God.
A: Why do you believe it's the word of God?
T: Because the Bible says it is.

...

Thats a very circular argument. And sadly I know alot of people at my church who think that way. Its really quite sad. Generally, for myself, I don't blindly follow the bible. I've read it, and some things in there I do follow. Not so much because I figure them to be rules, but moreso because I believe them to be quite common sense, and morally correct. Not because I believe it was some deity who wrote them. Just from general knowledge, I've heard that it was God writing through people. But thats just it, God wrote it through people, and he apparently gave us freewill. So thus, He could suggest to the people writing it what He wanted them to write, but in the end, they still had control over what they wrote. So some things in the bible need to be taken with a grain of salt. But in the same sense you can't start taking stuff from the Bible out of context just to suit your own needs either.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by GameInfarcer

You mean besides the senseless bombings in the name of Allah the Almighty? Or the corruption of morals by allowing people to pay the church to forgive their sins? What about all the religious wars?

To answer your second question, I wouldn't want to play thought police. Religion is already doing that. I want to stop the thought policing if you will.

I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus Christ was sent as my saviour so that my sins could be forgiven and that I would have a place in heaven. I go to church every Sunday, and I'm a youth leader on Thursday evenings. I help run a safe place for kids to come and get away from rough home situations for an evening. I have many friends at church, and lots of support should I need it. My church does a missions trip every summer to help out people who are less fortunate. Sometimes its building a home for a family in mexico that doesn't have one, or its something as simple as going to serve soup at a homeless shelter. Sometimes there is strife between different members of the church over small church politics stuff, but thats to happen with any community. But all in all, we keep to ourselves and don't interfere with other people. Now tell me what is pointless about this. Are you to say that we are better off to just tear down this church and build some houses in its place? All of us who have become friends under a common cause should just disband? I really don't think there is anything pointless about religion. Many of our criminal laws are based off of religious morals set forth by past religions. Our system of politics have things in them that were based off of religion. Many people who hit rock bottom, and end up on the streets, are saved by religion because they found love and support in a church when noone else would help them. You can make a general statement saying that religion is pointless and horrible. However, by making such a statement, you are ignoring the more positive, and less pointless aspects of religion as well. Religion isn't just some fanatical pastime that people get roped into. For some people it is a crutch and a way of life. I feel sorry for atheists, because without belief in something beyond themselves, what do they really live for? What can you strive to attain?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by GameInfarcer

Does that make you feel good about yourself? Or does it just make you feel high and mighty for helping the people that aren't as good as you? By the way, don't missionaries try to convert people?

Yes, I do feel good about myself. Or moreover, I feel happy for the family that got the house. They were really happy to have a decent home that wasn't built from pallets to live in. And obviously we didn't interfere.

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Wait wait wait, so sending missionaries down to mexico is keeping to yourself?

Would you rather us sit back home in our church, singing praise and worship songs, and gloating about how much better off our souls our? Have you ever tried to follow religion? How can you judge it simply by accounts of others? Its different for each person.[/quote]

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No, our criminal laws are based off fucking common sense. You shouldn't steal, kill, etc. If you need religion to tell you that these things are wrong, then there is something seriously wrong with you.



Once again, it's based on COMMON SENSE. I suppose you religious folk have never heard of that though.

Actually, its a historical fact that the first laws were based off the 10 commandments, which are indeed common sense. So you're basically saying that some aspects of religion are common sense. So why not follow it?

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Yes, and many people who end up on the streets, stay on the streets until they die. Where the fuck was god then?

Well, God gave people free will. If he just controlled things so that everything worked out for everyone, that would take away our free will. I would think that'd be alot worse than some fanatics taking things out of context.

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Needless to say, I do know that religion has positive aspects, but these positive aspects aren't religion exclusive. Just because religion can have some positive aspect does not outweigh the negative parts of it. Some of the people I care about most are religious. That's why it pains me to see them, and any other people, sucked into religion.

So basically, you cry yourself to sleep at night because some of your friends decided that they would be happy if they followed a religion? As long as they aren't being fanatical about converting other people, and as long as they aren't blowing up buildings because they say that their God told them to do it, what is so wrong? Do they seem happier to you? Do they seem like their life is horrible because they decided to follow religion? I say don't worry about it. Religion isn't for everyone. But it is for some.

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Yes, religion is VERY fanatical, and people ARE roped into it. Kids don't have a chance to open their mind because their parents are religious, and force it onto their kids. As for religion being a crutch for some people, and a way of life, that is just wrong. Religion should NOT, of all things, be a crutch.

I agree. Kids shouldn't be forced into religion. Religion shouldn't be about following rules, and only doing certain things. And although religion shouldn't be used as a crutch, often times it is. But like having a broken leg, eventually you don't need crutches anymore, but its still nice to have them handy incase you break your leg again or something. I used church as my crutch way back when. Helped me out of a shitty time in my life. Now, I find that whenever I'm hitting rough times, I can consult the bible for advice. Obviously its not for everyone though.

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A moderate atheist? That would be an agnostic.

Just my personal opinion, I prefer agnostics as opposed to atheists. At least agnostics are willing to admit that religion does have a place somewhere. Be that as it may. Religion works for me. I don't see religion as a bad thing. GameInfarcer, I really don't understand where your coming from, and so understandably, I'm finding it hard to see things from your point of view. Also, that last post of mine seemed kinda dumb. I was sort of ranting, and then hit the submit button. Sorry if it seemed a bit offensive.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by GameInfarcer

No, having a belief structure has nothing to do with being a religion. Besides, he was just trying to make a witty comment, not an actual point. Good one, btw. It was very funny.

Having a belief structure is completely what religion is about. Anyone who follows religion obviously chooses what they based on what they believe. Atheists also have a set of belief, and those beliefs also are what they base their actions on. If religion has nothing to do with a structure of beliefs, what then does it have to do with?

I was speaking idiomatically.

As far as I'm concerned, you don't have to be a part of any religion to believe in God. All religion is, is a set of beliefs and customs and traditions. Having a relationship with God is called spirituality.

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re·li·gion /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-lij-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

The dictionary even confirms that religion is a set of beliefs. Atheists have a set of beliefs. So doesn't that make them a religion too?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by GameInfarcer

No. you guys have the worst arguments. Just because something has a set of beliefs, doesn't mean it's a religion. That's just ridiculous to say. That's like saying just because something has a set of wings, it's a bird. There is more to it than just a set of beliefs. Atheists are far from religion.

You say that atheism is far from religion? For what reasons? You're making a pretty general statement.

Society's definition of a religion is that it is a set of beliefs. Atheists have a set of beliefs. They have a common belief that there is no higher power and that religion is phoney baloney. I would say that is some common beliefs.

Christianity has a common belief that God created the world and that the bible is a set of guidelines explaining how to live your life so as to please God.

Christianity is considered a religion, and they are a group of people coming together under a common set of beliefs. Atheists are a group of people coming together under a common set of beliefs. So wouldn't you agree that this goes to show that Atheism is also .. oh my! whats that word? a RELIGION!

Lets see you make some points that are a little more specific. Or at least back your points up with some reasoning.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by GameInfarcer

No. It's not. Technically there is no definition of religion. But ALL religion has to do with belief in god(s). You can't tell me that's not part of religion.

I don't know if you noticed my post where I quoted the dictionary. But the first 3 entries say that religion is a set of beliefs. You can't say that there is no definition of religion, when you find it directly in the dictionary. It doesn't specify what it has to be a belief in. Scientology is a religion, but it doesn't believe in a specific god per se.

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Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
Scientology
1951, system of beliefs founded by L. Ron Hubbard, perhaps directly from L. scientia (see science), or perhaps via Ger. scientologie (A. Nordenholz, 1937).

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

As you can see, It has been termed as a religion, and yet there is no belief in a specific god. simply a belief in an idea. Atheism is a belief in an idea. Maybe that doesn't quite term it as a full religion exactly. But you have to admit that its pretty darn close.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I've actually seen the flying spaghetti monster. A couple years ago, while walking home from the bar. Some thugs pounced upon me asking for money. I didn't have any of course, and so they wanted to beat the shit out of me. And then all of a sudden, in a whirl of pesto sauce, in flies this tangle of spaghetting and the thugs are soon bludgeoned into submission by meatballs of menace. Ever since then, I've believed in the spaghetti monster.

Anyways.

Yah, its very silly to just blindly believe in something as far fetched as God. But if God really does exist, and all those hard to prove theories about the earth being created were really true. Wouldn't that just be awesome? You are right, its stupid for religious people to try and force their ways into secular environments. But I get annoyed when people try to push out the aspects that are already there. Why can't people just deal with it and get over it? So what if a christmas tree is a christian thing. Its also a secular thing as well. And yet this year, around christmas time, I read in the paper that some parents were petitioning against the school their children go to, for the school to remove the christmas tree from the foyer, because "Oh my god, the christians invented it!!!!". If you don't want religion to interfere with your precious secular environment, why can't you leave what little religious aspects we have left alone?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by GameInfarcer

What do you have against me Styphon?

Because its people like you who make me look good.

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The world would be a better place without religion.

No, thats wrong. Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people. Pretty soon we're gonna see fanatical atheists running around burning down churches because they think the world is better off without them. Seriously dude, you seem rather narrow minded. I'm open to the fact that perhaps there is no God. Are you even remotely open to the fact that there might actually be one?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I found an article on wikipedia for you to peruse with proof of God, perhaps you can make some better arguments than "People believe in religion, so I hate it."

Proof of God

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Around 90% of the people in America believe in god, and I think that's ridiculous.

Whats so bad about 90% of people in America choosing to believe in God. You're saying that you hate the fact that they impose on other people, and yet here you are complaining about the fact that they don't believe in nothing.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Everyone else has a freaking point to make, You make a shitty point, you back it up with shitty..or I mean nothing, and then every time someone shoots down one of your arguments with a decent valid point, you just say that their argument sucks, and then keep on going with your shit. This is an endless argument.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by RainMan

You, on the other hand, are brilliant. I've always said so to everybody I know and now is no different. Kudos to you.

While I am inclined to just go ahead and believe anything you say, perhaps you would care to elaborate? What part of my statement were you unable to come to grips with?

The whole F**ing thing you douche. RainMan, I've read through most of your comments, and it seems to me like you aren't even debating anymore. Your just trying to get shits and giggles about playing the devil's advocate to anything anyone says. It's to the point where you're coming off as a complete idiot. How about just shutting up for awhile until you have something intelligent to say.


As for your comment of "there is no evidence, so that means he's not there". Thats complete bullshit. There is as much evidence proving that there is a god as there is evidence proving that there is NO god. Neither sets of evidence are 100% concrete. So why continue arguing? Whatever argument you think your partaking in isn't winnable. No amount of stupidity uttered from your mouth will make anyone go "Hey RainMan, you know what?! You're absolutely right. You win!" So just stop being such a douche. We understand, you don't believe in God, you find him to be a waste of time and a cop out.

As for those who consider believing in God to be a cop out from real life problems. I highly disagree. I myself am a believer, so obviously I'm a little biased. But putting faith is something that might or might not be "make believe" is by know means a cop out. It's a cop out if you simply pray to God for him to make your life better, and then you simply do nothing. But for lots of christians, they ask for his help, not for his divine intervention. It's not simply about turning to God only when you have problems. He's supposed to be a friend, a source of guidance and in some sense, an imaginary but not so imaginary friend. Someone you can talk to, confide in, etc etc.

People who follow solely the bible are retards. The bible is a set of guidelines for living a righteous life. It was written 2000 years ago. Many of the things it tells you to do aren't applicable in today's society per say. However, the ideas behind the suggested morals and principals still apply. Thou shalt not steal and so on and so forth. Even if one doesn't believe in what the bible tells about God, Jesus and who they were. You can still get some handy advice for real life situations. So before anyone starts bashing the bible, make sure you've read most of it. Know what's in it.

Well, thats enough of my rant. Also RainMan, God could kick the tooth fairy's ass any day.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

First of all you've committed a logical fallacy. It cannot be the case that God does and does not exist. Therefore it cannot not simply be a matter of personal choice or faith. This violates the law of noncontradiction. If 50% of us believe in God and God does not exist, then it logically entails that 50% of us believe a false proposition.

Secondly, there are literally dozens of specific sciences that are as close as we're going to get which prove there is no God. The evidence in many cases which support our naturalistic understanding of the universe is overwhelming. Even Israeli archeology has not managed to find a single shard left by our ancestors' 40 year trek through the desert. With regards to certainty we can be as close as makes no difference that there was no exile and there was no wandering. There is not a shred of evidence in support of religion or the existence of god. The best you can achieve to prove the existence of God is to infer him from an apparent harmony in the arrangements. This is an extremely weak argument which has been refuted time and time again. You also have the problem of evil to account for. Then again religion has a great deal of explaining which it cannot do.

And what evidence is this that disproves the existence of God? Do you have any sources to back yourself up? Or are you blindly saying things out of your ass.

I in fact have done alot of research about this stuff. Reading up about this stuff is the same as reading all this stuff in this thread. It just goes back and forth and the argument never ends.

Supporters of Intelligent Design's main theory is that the world must have been created because all the organism, ecosystems etc etc are far to complex and complicated to have happened through random chance and evolution

More and more scientists, although they still reject intelligent design, are leaning away from the theory of evolution as well.

Darwin himself, renounced his own theory on his deathbed. He died a christian.


I've attached a term paper that I wrote in grade 12 on this subject. There are sources and stuff in it. Have a read, gain some sources, and then come debate with something to back yourself up.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Common sense tells me that the theory of evolution is bullshit. You're gonna sit there and tell me that something as complex as the human eyeball became perfected through random mutations. Common sense should tell you that ain't gonna happen. If you took apart a watch, and dropped the handful of pieces onto the ground over and over again. What are the chances of it landing in such an orientation as to work perfectly? Or even at all? Common sense will tell me that it's not going to happen. It's this level of common sense that is making scientists lean away from the theory of evolution.

To suggest that I'm worried about anything you have to say changing my beliefs is to suggest that I'm an idiot. Only a fool would take anything you say seriously.

FELIPE NO

Its only a syllogism full of irony if you take it completely out of context. Obviously English seems to be something you haven't grasped yet. I say that people who follow the bible soley are retards. Yes. And that the bible is merely a set of guidelines. Not the law. So yah, your not a retard if you read the bible and try to apply some of the common sense in it, but to base everything you do and say on what the bible 'told you to do' is retarded simply because today's society is so much different than society was at the time the bible was written. Now, how about discussing the topic on hand rather than finding anyone's posts that go against your opinion and dissecting and attacking them.

Also, as for admitting what I believe? Its simple. I believe that there is a higher power who I call God. I believe that he sent his son to earth to be born of a virgin mother. He grew up, and then died on the cross to provide a way for us to have our sins forgiven. I believe that if I pray to my God, he'll provide me with the answers I need. I believe that because I have asked for God to forgive me of my sins, and because I have chosen to follow him, my soul will rise to heaven when I pass away. So I go to church, and I pray, and I read the bible, applying different things that I learn from the bible to my everyday life as much as I can. I am happy. And that's what matters.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

your belief in religion stems only from the comfort it offers to you.

Awesome. Finally you understand. Now isn't it nice to be on the same page? Now you see why I believe what I do. Because I like it. Does there really need to be any more of a reason?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Ugh. I hate people who quote single bible verses LordsSword. (Oh man, I just realized the irony of your name.)

I don't think the bible should be taken out of context that way. You shouldn't live your life by single verses. Take it as a whole. What is the whole passage saying, not the itty bitty little sentences within.

Also LOL Capo. I love the old testement. FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!!

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I think it's dumb not to at least believe that there might be a remote chance of some higher power out there. I wouldn't ever want to be an atheist. Because my imagination wouldn't allow it anyhow. I have the imagination, and the open mindedness to believe in a God. To say that without God, I'd be an immoral individual is idiotic as well. Being a Christian didn't give me my morals. My morals are just part of what make me a Christian. I have no problem with people who are atheist, or agnostic. But seriously, if they can get in other people's faces about there being no God, why can't I get in there faces about there being a God? There really isn't a difference at this point. I've been finding both cliques of people to be equally annoying as of late.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

What I find annoying is certain people at my church. People go to church to seek perfection, both spiritually or whatever. But there is actually people at my church who judge other people, who are coming from a life of drugs and shit, and their coming to church to get clean. Basically my point is, you don't need to be perfect and then come to church, you come to church to get perfect.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I always figured atheists to be people who didn't believe in any god. Agnostic to me is someone who believes there might be something, but not in any particular one

I was speaking idiomatically.

You're seriously trying to convert people. Wow.

How ya doing, buddy?