Neon Genesis Evangelion

Neon Genesis Evangelion is one of my favourite anime, and one of the first ones I ever discovered way back in the day. I can definitely see why some people don't like it - it's got elements in it that are going to put off viewers who were looking for a traditional mecha anime.

You could even call it bad writing in some parts, because it's so obtuse, and doesn't get to the bloody point. However, for some people, it just works. It's also lovely to watch while extremely stoned.

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Originally Posted by xen0phobia

Spoiler:

Wait i disagree. I think the movie and TV series have exactly oposite endings. In the TV series he accepts the human instrumentality project but in the movie he rejects it.... If this isn't correct then i'm really confused.

I don't know about "correct", but that's not the impression I got.

Spoiler:

I thought the big "congratulations" was because Shinji learned to live in the real world. You know, finally grew up and started to understand that all his problems don't prevent him from having a decent life. Having realised all of that (assuming I'm right) it seems natural that he'd "reject" the complementation of all souls. I just get the impression that it was implicit rather than explicit in the TV ending. You know they ran out of budget, which is why the movie was made, right?

That's just my thoughts. If you still disagree, then that's valid. Try watching the ending again, though... I'd do the same myself, but I've seen it far too many times, now.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by aku

OH oh oh...i will be watching the series again, starting tomorrow URAH!

Spoiler:

and will tell you every little detail about why it is exactly the same...i will even try to get some screen shots of where the places over-lap. I argued about this with the eva monkey, and convinced him (he saw it the same way you did) that the endings are the same...

now that probly dont need a spoiler, for that last part but meh....

Arguing with the Eva Monkey is kinda like the special olympics... You don't need me to finish that saying, right?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by www.sega.co.jp

Who do you think would make the best match for Shinji: Misato, Rei or Asuka?
Here's my thought:

Spoiler:

Misato, even though the age diffenece is great, she has the least conditional love for Shinji. Asuka is too demanding and Rei is too distant. Misato really cares about Shinji (as seen in a few episodes where she breaks out crying when she thinks Shinji won't come back) and supports most of decisions all the way. She was the first person in the series to really branch out to Shinji and it shows how much she loves him (even though Kaji was her primary romantic concern throughout most of the series until his death.

[AOL]Me too![/AOL]

I can't add anything to what you just said, other than to speculate as to whether Shinji might prefer Asuka in spite of her demanding nature. There are plenty of hints in the series that his crush on her is both major and lasting.

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Originally Posted by David4516

Really though, Asuka was probably closer to Shinji than any other character in the series.

Yeah. Her demanding nature and her other personality quirks don't make her any worse than some girls I dated myself. They'd get along just fine.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by www.sega.co.jp

Well you forgot to mention her immense abandonment and low-self esteem wissues. Of course who doesn't have those issues in NGE?

Like I said, been there, dated that. It's not hell on Earth, by any means.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by MrSatan

I got a question, as you may know, the evangelion renewal that came in japan was a remaster of the tv series and movies, and it appear as the platinum collection, but the movies are not in the collection, i think that have to do something with manga, that have the rights, anyone knows if the patinum movie editions will appear on america? i want to buy the movies, but i prefer the platinum over the old release.

Probably they won't. Manga are cockblocking, like you suspected. Shame, because I've seen the Renewal version of EoE, and man, the Manga Entertainment version sucks balls by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

Didn't I already go over this earlier?

ending:

The TV ending, and EoE are the same up to a certain point. In the TV ending Shinji accepts complementation, and he rejects it in EoE. I think it's pretty obvious. Everyone congratulating him at the end of the series, is basically him reaching that perfect world. That's why it's an almost disturbingly happy ending. In EoE Shinji rejects that fake world in favor of the real world. A world where he'll feel pain once again.

So yes, up until the choice they are the same. Misato gets shot in both, Ritsuko dies in the pool of LCL, Asuka fights the MP Evas etc. But Shinji either chooses differently or he's never given the choice in the first place. To me it seems like Rei never rebelled against Gendo in the TV ending. She accepted her fate, thus denying Shinji the chance to choose differently.

Saying "Didn't I already go over this earlier?" makes it sound like you're right, and we're a bunch of recalcitrant students. I find that your theory about the two endings is not at all in line with my own perceptions. You've got your ideas, and other people don't agree. The fanbase is divided right down the middle on this issue, and always will be.

Spoiler:

For as long as I can remember, it has seemed to me that Shinji chooses to reject the artificial world of complementation in both versions of the ending. It is precisely for that choice that he was being congratulated at the end of the final episode. I wasn't even really aware that there was another way the ending could have been perceived until I read Brendan Jamieson's work, on the EvaOtaku website. However, I was not convinced by his reasoning, and I'm not alone. I suggest you read MDWigs' excellent argument for the concurrency of EoE and EoTV, if only to gain another perspective on the subject.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdwigs/endings.html

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

Anyway, looked back in the thread and couldn't find your thoughts on the endings. What are they? I'm curious as to what you think their relations are to each other (I really am. I love talking about Eva), and what evidence you have to back it up.

I'm sure you'd find MDWigs' own treatment of the subject far more pursuasive than my own. Although he's no longer active on any forums that I know of, he had a knack for presenting new perspectives on certain aspects of Evangelion that was uncanny.

I had thought I already posted my thoughts on this, but perhaps there has been another Evangelion thread, or it could even have been pre-crash. Who can say? I'm going to have to dissapoint you if you wish for me to present a comprehensive case, including evidence fully cited and laid out for all to see. I'd be more than willing to do so on request, but it has simply been too long since I've seen this anime for me to do so right now. The best I can do is to simply discuss how I perceive the ending, and make it clear that I'm only dealing in subjective matters.

Spoiler:

The first time I watched Evangelion, the TV ending was the only one available at that time, and I have to admit that I thought it was incredibly bizarre. The first time I watched it, I did believe that Shinji chose to accept complementation, and that humanity remained merged into a single consciousness forever. It would have been rather a down ending, but not unprecedented. If the ending had unfolded in that way, it would have been strikingly similar to that of Tomino Yoshiyuki's Space Runaway Ideon.

I didn't get a chance to watch EoE until the DVD release, by which time I'd also watched the series again. It is self-evident that the process of complementation is halted and reversed during the events of EoE, but what I noticed is that leaving this apparent difference aside, there is an odd similarity between the events of the two endings. It appears to me almost as though they were the opposite sides of the same coin, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

The theatrical presentation, The End of Evangelion, can be divided into two parts. These two parts are ostensibly the replacements for episodes 25 and 26 of the TV series. They are properly called "25: AIR" and "26: Sincerely Yours (My Pure Heart For You)". There is also an epilogue, which is entitled "One More Final: I Need You".

It's important to separate out the parts like this, because it highlights the fact that the structure of the "movie", mirrors that of the TV. First of all, it's my contention that there is very little that is significantly different beween TV episode 25, and "AIR". I'd suggest that the two narratives could be said to represent the same events, but told from a different perspective.

Certainly, I think that you'd agree that the two narratives bring us to more or less the same place, and by more or less the same route. It is episode 26 which seems to contain the deviations. By whichever route we have come, we will by now have arrived at the point where complementation has begun.

It was at this point that I began to form my opinions. The two don't seem to me to be separate, but instead, two halves of an imperfectly harmonious whole. In other words, I believe that the "two endings" are in fact one, and that while episode 26 mostly tells the story from the point of view of Shinji, experiencing complementation, EoE tells that same story from an external standpoint, filling in the blanks.

Finally, if my theory were correct, one might append "One More Final: I Need You" to either the TV ending or the movie ending, and it would be just as valid.

This dialogue from the end of TV episode 26 clinches it for me, but not without reservations.

SHINJI: But... I hate myself.
REI: One who truly hates himself, cannot love. He cannot place his trust in another.
SHINJI: I'm a coward. I'm cowardly, sneaky and weak!
MISATO: No. Only if you think you are. But if you know yourself, you can take care of yourself.
SHINJI: I... hate myself... but... but, maybe... maybe, I could love myself...! Maybe... My life could have a greater value...! That's right! I'm no more, or less, than myself! I am me! I want to be myself! I want to continue existing in this world! My life is worth living here!!

It's that final line that's the kicker. Taken as a whole, it is a life-affirming statement, which is no small thing for Shinji. The emboldened portion, I believe, is an example either of dialogue which doesn't work too well in English, or which wasn't written too well to begin with. It's possible that "this world" and "here" refer to the artificial world of Complementation, but I believe that Shinji is referring to the real world.

It's important to bear in mind that the sequence of dialogue quoted above comes not long after a passage in which Shinji acknowledged that the "real world might not be so bad". Overall, I believe that the big "CONGRATULATIONS!" scene at the end, and the whole optimistic nature of the TV Ending (more so than the movie, indeed) would be out of place if Shinji was really choosing to spend the rest of his existance as a pitcher of Tang. YMMV.

even the RCB flat out states that the Shinji we see at the very end is complemented

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

It's funny because I came up with my theory before reading Jamieson's. I even disagree with his a bit, though I tend to agree with him on most of it.

As did I arrive at my own conclusions before discovering MDWigs' take on the matter. However, I'd be remiss if I didn't at least namecheck the two people who have become synonymous with this debate in Evangelion fandom.

Personally, I disagree with Brendan Jamieson on most everything, by default. It usually seems like the right policy. I have a little more to say <i>in re</i>: the edits you made to your last post. This is going to be awkward, though, because of spoiler tags.

Quote:

Spoiler:

the fact that the ending almost exactly mirrors Ideon's

[spoiler]To be influenced by something is to take certain elements from it. To transplant a structure wholesale, without alteration, however... that's nothing short of plagiarism. I think that there's a natural end to the degree of the paralels which can be drawn, because I think that Anno would have taken his influence from Ideon, and put his own unique spin on it.

I would also have to ask if you speak fluent Japanese, at this point. Unless you do, it doesn't seem to me to be possible that you've seen the ending of Ideon, or even anything past episode 29. To the best of my knowledge, the HK bootlegs available of Ideon aren't complete. I'm glad to hear that you're a huge Ideon fan, though. I just finished timing 29, grab it from the Sadakobot.

Quote:

Spoiler:

that even the RCB flat out states that the Shinji we see at the very end is complemented

[spoiler]I could point to at least one well-recognised inaccuracy in the RCB, and argue that it's an unreliable source. However, I don't need to do that, because this isn't technically a mistake. It's a semantic issue. Bear in mind that unless you're fluent in Japanese, the RCB text that you read has passed through the hands of a translator. Even the great Bochan Bird has been known to make some errors.

Quote:

Spoiler:

we will examine Shinji being complemented.

Well quite. Naturally, Shinji was complemented. So was every other scrap of life on the planet (the known exceptions notwithstanding) including plants and even microbes. However, if I was to suggest that the process was reversed, this could easily allow for my interpretation of events to be the correct one. It doesn't make it concrete, but it certainly makes it possible.

A final thought: Just because something was not shown, does not mean it didn't happen. In every narrative which is actualised through a visual medium, there is a certain amount of the action taking place "off-screen". I've no intentions of making a long and drawn-out debate on this topic though. I merely wish to make it plain that there is a degree of plurality regarding this issue. It is nowhere near to as cut-and-dried as some fans would have us believe.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

I wish you could too since it would kill a lot of debate about the series.

I've seen other people reference that same article, but I believe it was Tsuramaki who gave the interview, and who stated that the two endings are fundamentally the same. Whoever said it, it was in Japanese, and I didn't keep the link. I'm told that his statement translates to the effect that the EoE screenplay was made from an extended version of the original storyboard for the TV ending. The TV ending as we see it was cut drastically for lenght, and budgetary reasons, but the script outline remained the same.

I encourage you to take that notion with a large pinch of salt, since I didn't trouble to read the interview for myself.

There's nowhere I can't reach.