What the heck has happened with the Mana/Seiken Densetsu franchise? Where's the magic
 

Well, as stated in the title, what the heck has happened to this series of great games that were released in the past? Ok, I don't know if I'm the only one who has this opinion, but after Seiken Densetsu 3 (which is one of my all time favorites in games) all the Secret of Mana games have turned into pure crap in comparison to the two released on the SNES. I've played Legend of Mana, Sword of Mana, and taken some quick plays at Children of Mana and Heroes of Mana, but I've gotten disappointed at every one of them. I haven't played Dawn of Mana, but I have heard that it's not very good and I really don't feel like trying it neither. The magic that was all there in the early games have just disappeared and they have turned the great fighting systems that were in the SNES games into shit. Why do they keep massacring the name of this once great game series? I'd rather have them not release any more of these games than getting more of these horrible games.

I only really liked SoM out of the whole series.

The more games that come out the more it seems like the game was a complete fluke (and how sad it is Secret of Evermore came the closest to recreating the SoM experience).

I actually only liked Secret of Mana and Legend of Mana. SD3 never did it for me and the rest of the series has been considerable suckage.

Also, maybe I'm a minority but Legend of Mana was the pinnacle of the series for me. Played the shit out of that game making some great weapons and I loved the way the game had so many scattered subplots everywhere. Made it easy to pick up and put down while still enjoying the storyline.

Same thing that's happened with the FF series...Too many games, too much whorage, too little substance. Both Children of Mana and SD4 look absolutely terrible and I'm only slightly optimistic about Heroes of Mana because it sounds like Growlanser's battle system. Was never a fan of Legend of Mana...The battles just put me to sleep and felt like a beat-em up that wasn't fully complete, but I liked the scenario structure for awhile.

Out of all the Seiken games, I've only liked the first three (SoM being the best). After that, it was pretty much all downhill...

They don't care. People will buy them and they want money.

I think the "series" really lacks any consistency. I have a soft spot for Secret of Mana and even Seiken Densetsu 3... but, that's about it. If Legend of Mana had a bit more structure... not sure how I want to put this, if it felt a little less fragmented (which each of the subplot scenarios are), I'd probably loved it. It was a guilty pleasure, especially with co-op mode.

I wouldn't get too disheartened, especially given how sometimes great things are truly stand alone experiences.

Secret of Mana was pretty good, but I didn't like it anywhere near as much as SD3. If they had games more along the lines of the compromise of those two, then I'd be overjoyed - Dungeon crawl / half-assed RTS games? Not so much.

Secret of Mana was the tops for me, Seiken Densetsu 3 was really cool too, and even Final Fantasy Adventure was one of the best handheld RPGs around when it came out. I really think Square's big problem with the whole World of Mana promotion was making too many games at once; all the top brass were just spread too thin (even if Masato Kato came back from Monolith to work on it). Granted, Children of Mana got pretty good reviews in Japan, where gamers are less hateful of dungeon crawls overall (36/40 in Famitsu, sold 100k units in, like, a week), but I don't really see it as a classic-in-the-making or anything. The new Mana games just don't feel like the older titles, either. Secret of Mana and SD3 were great because they were good single player games that happened to have a working multi-player component. CoM is a decent multi-player title with no story to cater to single-players, and Dawn of Mana is a very basic single-player game that has no multi-player at all. It feels like you're only getting half the experience with either title.

You're talking about the people who created Frost Mission 5, and then decide not to release it outside Japan. WHY? you fucking bastards. They don't make sense anymore.

As much as they'll try, Secret of Mana will never be equalled again, along with other SNES games from that era, like Chrono Trigger.

Don't be forgetting Heroes... which is utter BS. Damn it SE, just remake the originals already. You're already doing it for FF and DQ.

If they screw the remakes of SoM and SD3 up as much as they did for the original Seiken Densetsu (re: Sword of Mana), then we're not really going to be better off for it.

Well, when you think about it, Secret of Mana was at the top of its game with co-titles like Chrono Trigger and EarthBound for the SNES. It had a great plot and great music. Not only could play co-op w/ two people, but it was just plain fun. At the time, the graphics were outstanding, and it truly was a great RPG for the SNES era.

Unfortunately, it seems that today many developers (with the exception of a few) aren't interested in getting the player entranced in a solid storyline. Instead, they churn out these games quickly just because they're franchise sequels. They fail to do the one thing that seemed to keep games entertaining in the past....develop some originality, but don't mess with the thing that made it great in the first place.

I completely agree with that statement. Especially the question of what happened to the SUBSTANCE? That's probably the biggest problem of most new titles out there today. The bottom line in most cases... that quick development leads to a disappointing game.

The downfall of the Mana series isn't the World of Mana bs or any of that. It's that Square feels it has to innovate with every title, so they tack on useless system after useless system and makes the game too complicated for its own good. All you need is to level up your weapon skill (to 9, not 99), and your magic skill (same), and ocassionally get better weapons and armor than you currently have. No smithing shit with extra trinkets to give bonus points for random shit; no gathering extra elemental sprites that do you not a bit of good unless you're the right job; and really, no jobs. Give that shit up.

Just fighting and levelling, that's all you need, Square. You got the music and art down perfectly, so just go back to old school for the game mechanics.

Additional Spam:
Secret of Mana was never known for its plot. Sorry, it's the truth. It was so fun that I didn't care that the plot was specious at best and hackneyed at worst, though.

Secret of Mana had a story? Doesn't matter. The environments, soundtrack and explorative spirit of the game more than made up for an uninspired story. In fact, I believe Seiken Densetsu 2 to be nothing short of magic.

Recent efforts in the Seiken Densetsu franchise should be more prone to trying to figure out what made the original so great.

Yeah, I suppose that's probably true. I'm going from what I remember about the game as a kid...I probably hyped it up to be better in my mind, but I do know for a fact that it was one of my favorite memorable RPG's, and the fun factor was very high.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I rented the game constantly, and would play other people's save games*, so the plot was all over the place for me. Didn't matter, though, since the game was spot on for everything else.

* It wasn't until later that I realized that may have been a rude gesture.

You guys can rag on the story all you want, but I still think the ending of SoM was really sad. :(

Damnit, now I want to play the game again. ;_;

C'mon guys, we all know it was pretty much downhill after Final Fantasy Adventure.

Why lie.

I don't know why everyone refuses to tell me what was wrong with Heroes of Mana.

I'll concede that there really wasn't much of a plot, but the game does have a lot of heart. What other RPG allows you to visit Santa himself, AND go on a quest for him? The game's just so fanciful and out-there it's impossible not to like! The newer Manas, pretty much from Legend of Mana onward, have all gotten so... odd. Every other NPC in LoM speaks in riddles or cryptic phrases, the music has become more serious and low-key, the art style has become more detailed and fantasy-like and less jovial and bright. It's not all bad, but it's drifting away from what made the series really something special instead of just another RPG. Hiroki Kikuta needs to come back, that's for sure.

If you want my opinion, nothing is *really* wrong with it, but the AI (both your team's and the enemies) are kinda wonky. Everything just sorta wanders around like it's trying to be random and not sticking to any sort of strategy. I think the big issue people had with it was it was an RTS with little strategy; you just sort of run in and attack anything that moves. Koichi Ishii said it was never supposed to be more than a "casual" game anyway, so some people judge it for more than it was trying to be: an entry-level RTS. It *does* have cameos from SD3, though, and that alone is worth something.

I think the most telling sign this series is on the decline is there hasn't been one clear-cut "OMFG, this thread is bullshit" post to defend the series so far. Just "SD1-3 were awesome, some love for LoM which has always been love-hate, then...Uh yeah".

I have to say though...it IS nice SE is spreading the whoring out to include the Mana series, so it's not just FF and KH. So hopefully, all these shitty games will pay off and eventually lead to a domestic DS SD3 release...

Seriously it was never that good to begin with. I don't know why people expect something from each sequel. It's like you like having your hopes and dreams disintergrate on a bi-annual basis.

I can tell you exactly why: Front Mission 4 sold exactly six copies. Game stores couldn't give the game away. It's not unreasonable for Squeenix to not want to flush away money on a game that they cannot sell.

Actually, this is related to why the SD series has sucked so badly lately: it doesn't have to be any good. The teeming masses don't care if a game is any good, as long as it's pretty and has name recognition, and the Seiken games have both in spades. That one Matrix game crashed on the Xbox, and it still sold like hotcakes.

It's sad, but that's business. The only reason anybody makes good games at all, I'd wager, is professional work ethics. Because if all you care about is money, then all you need is a ton of graphic artists and someone who knows how to pump the teen angst market.

I read somewhere that Mana fans are the new Sonic fans, and it's very true. Every new game that comes out has thousands of hangers-on hoping against all odds that *this* will be the game to bring the series back. Regardless of how good of a game SoM was back in '92, from a technical or story-telling perspective, it has aged well in the minds of fans. Trying to recapitulate the memories of first playing the game are what keep people coming back to the series, no matter how lackluster the new games may be.

New stuff is failure.

CoM = I liked it, to tell you the truth I loved it. Lots of people and crits hated it.

HoM = Wow they didn't pass kindergarten.

Man, I hate it that gaming has in a way gone so far so that it's almost not about the games any longer. They better up the graphics and controls, but that's all (in most cases). My favourite console of all time is SNES, and is it because of the graphics and control? No, it's because of the GAMES.

But still, I understand that the game developers just want money, but couldn't the ones actually working on the game try to make a good game? Don't they have any desire to make a good game? Sometimes I'm wondering if they're just blindly making a game because of how bad it can turn out.

My version of how it all went down;

We got Secret of Evermore instead of Seken Dunsetsu 3.

For all the nay-saying that it wasn't the case, what we can see is that we got a poorly exicuted game with a dumbass plot (which, it has to be noted, is worse than minimal plot, as was the case with SoM) and did not get the supieror game, that being SD3. The cake, my friends, was a lie.

From there, to be curt, it all went south.

I thought SoE stayed much more true to the gameplay of SoM and looking back on the two of them, I actually enjoyed playing SoE a lot. My biggest wish is that it had two player.

SoM, good times. I remember I, and my best friend playing that endlessly.

I am somewhat surprised no remakes have come out, let alone remakes/releases of SD3. They sure did it for FF3, so how SoM/SD was not remade is beyond me. Add in the fact that it would truly be awesome to play it wirelessly on the DS (although I could just see it NOT having wireless as disappointments occur almost daily video-game wise anymore), and there you go. Heck, if somehow they could build something that connects SD2 with SD3 (stats, items, etc), they could use that, along with a new Mana game, and call it the Universe of Mana system that somehow puts it all together online.

Ok, so I am dreaming now...it won't happen.

I feel that the developers keep trying to become innovative that they lost the idea of the Mana series. But it happens with game titles. Soon, it becomes "We gotta freshen it up or else people won't buy it" mentality that results in what is the Mana series.

The series is a complete and utter joke now. It's dead to me.

Play Magazine said the same thing. They prefaced their Dawn of Mana review with "The Mana series is dead..." and gave it a 5/10. Their Heroes of Mana review a few months later was a respectable 8/10, though. I'm not convinced it's over yet, not unless they really mess up Secret of Mana in some way; a bad port or something. Even if the series has to live on in re-releases of the first three games, maybe it won't be so bad.

That'd be nice. Still waiting for a virtual console version of SoM and SD3 with online multi-player support or DS versions with Wi-fi, myself.

I've played both, and I found Secret of Evermore to be the superior game. Neither was as good as Secret of Mana, but Evermore was closer to the source. SD3 is where the series went downhill, and it's revered more than it deserves to be simply because of its mythical status of Never Released In The US.

Sure, SD3 was pretty and had a lot of style, but the game felt lacking, gameplay-wise. The character choices weren't a good replacement for the multiple weapons of SoM, especially since all the characters tended to be really quirky, like the werewolf guy. It's hard to put into words, but the game felt a little too stiff as compared to Evermore, which was built off the SoM engine. Square didn't learn, though, which is why Legend of Mana was even worse.

The plot was lousy to boot, if you're going to bring that point up. It's equally minimal and cliched, and continues with the series' annoying trend of having a bright, cheery world hosting a story that just makes you want to cut yourself. I at least cared about going from place to place in Evermore - in SD3 I hated moving on because it meant that once again the good guys were going to fail with more emo than you can shake a Kingdom Hearts cosplayer at.

Plus, Evermore featured pre-burnout Jeremy Soule.

I stand by my "Evermore is an american game trying to be a japanese one" comment.

The music is attrocious, the multiplayer from SOM is gone, the cameos are so hamfisted to hell, Changodog makes for a lowsey partner and the story is a total pisstake and had realy bad writing.

At the very lest with SD3, I could play it and go "Yes, I see where this evolves from SOM" in terms of Story, Gameplay (Will admit that the numbr of Human Playable Chracters went from 3 to 2), mechanics from SOM (the Treasure Wheel).

Evermore is a weeaboo game, it marked the begining of Mana's suck, that's where I'm going with it.

There actually is a patch for the ROM to allow someone else to control the dog. I net-played through the whole game that way last year with a friend.

I liked Evermore, but I have a hard time saying it was really a Mana game since an entirely different team created it and it essentially just copied the game mechanics straight from SoM but reduced the main character count -1. Still awesome, though.

Oh damn, I'd love to have that patch. I'd totally go and play Evermore with a friend that way.

Wasn't sure if the site had it or not but it does. :x

You say that like it's a bad thing. Updates to game mechanics shouldn't and don't have to be sweeping new systems of gadgets and gimmicks, I feel.

god I would kill for a game to basically lift SoM's gameplay wholesale...

Oh yeah, how could I forget about Secret of Evermore? I guess since I haven't really regarded it as a Seiken Densetsu game, because it really isn't right? Anyways, I thought it was a really good game, not as good as SoM but still it was good although different. The alchemy ability or whatever it was called was very cool, maybe a bit lacking in some aspects but still very cool.

And I really don't think SD3 was boring and stiff as someone stated, maybe it was not as flexible in the same way as SoM with the changing of weapons, but I just simply LOVED the good/evil class system. I just can't get enough out of it! I have played the game so many times, and it's still fun because I just create another kind of party setup, with different characters and different classes. And I actually thought the story was really great, it was nice that you got different endgame scenarios and bosses from different lead characters, which rose the replayability factor even more. I just can't get enough of this game! I feel like playing it right now in fact :D

Seiken Densetsu 3 was fun for me because I played it right after the first English patch came out. Back then you could actually say there was something of an SD3 community, with boards lighting up across the net with people discovering things about a Super Nintendo game that came out like six years earlier. It was really something. The plot may not have been as cohesive as Secret of Mana, but it did have more replay value with all the different class and character combinations you could experiment with. The music was good too, Kikuta came back to write the score and it turned out really great. A little less light and fluttery than SoM's soundtrack, but enjoyable nonetheless.

That's what the Mana series needs, more Hiroki Kikuta.

I think a large part of the problem is a problem that many franchises also have to deal with. The gaming community is much bigger then it was back in the NES and SNES days. There weren't as many people so the games actually HAD to be good to get people to buy it. Now there are so many gamers that just about any developer can pump out a piece of crap and still break even as long as the game has the right look/name.

Oh and just for the record. I saw Legend of Mana at a friend's house and have never looked at the series since. I loved Secret of Mana and I wanted to play the sequel that was never released over here. But none of the games since then seemed to really look worth the time.

I also played SD3 after the translation patch came out and at the time, it was a BIG deal. I did enjoy the game but in retrospect, it doesn't come anywhere close to SoM. The game mechanics just don't hold up for me. I love how fluid and quick the characters are in SoM but in SD3, it always feels like you're crawling towards the enemy.

LoM continued that pattern, introduced a bunch of incredibly irritating characters and mostly dispensed with a plot altogether (which probably isn't a bad thing considering past attempts). I didn't care for the game but compared to later games in the series, it's a freaking masterpiece.

OUt of curosity, do people play SoM online (with emulators multiplayer features)? I am a bit surprised I have yet to see one person mention something like that in this thread, and wondering if for some reason it wasn't possible.

Actually I mentioned a patch for Evermore to do that very thing for that game, so of course I've done it for Secret of Mana. I assume the people who acted interested in the patch have probably done it at some point too.