Are RPG's getting worse every 5 years? (List your top 10 RPG's ever to help!)
 

Which time period were RPG games (averagely) the best?
Late 80's seemed just great to me with Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy starting out and I believe RPG's were at their peak early in the genres lifetime in the 1990-1995 time period.

My top RPG's ever, in order, are:

1. FF4
2. Shining Force CD
3. FF1
4. Shining Force 3
5. Dragon Warrior 3
6. Dragon Warrior 5
7. Dragon Quest 8
8. Super Mario RPG
9. Lunar The Silver Star (Sega CD)
10. Shining the Holy Ark
11. FF7
12. Paper Mario

1996-1999 was okay, some excellent shiners, but there was also a flow of junk coming out, just the same. 2000-2003 it seemed that the amount of junk coming out overshadowed the good stuff. And even moreso in 2004 to present.
I have a feeling that some people LOVE modern RPG's, but I also believe that people who have been playing RPG's as long as I have are going to have 90's RPG's in their top list-primarily.

So, what are your top RPG's in order, and how do you feel about the RPG genre over time?

Note:

The thread's point is not to just make a list of your favorite RPGs and then say which era your #1 game is from. You don't even need to make a list.

The idea is to discuss what you thought was/is the best time for RPGs, both console and PC, and whether RPGs have considerably worsened as platforms come and go.

The list helps give yourself an idea of how your favorite RPGs span out and through that consider what was the best era. Don't just list and gush.

1. Valkyrie Profile
2. Lunar: Eternal Blue
3. Thousand Arms
4. Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete
5. Star Ocean: TSS

And those recent ones like Till the End of Time, Legendia, Shadow Hearts: Covenant and so on.

Basically I'm a 1996-2000 RPG type of guy since my introduction to RPGs started in about.. '98, pretty recently so I can't help but list those ones in about 6-7 years old.

But as seeing a lot of RPGs pretty much follow the cliched storyline of boy meets girl or boy has sister or boy promises revenge or boy seeks to be the best whatsoever or boy tries to save the world (oh no!) or something else you can see pretty much in every literature, modified with some tweaks but follow the same path, a lot of modern (hell, my top 5 would be at least modernized too to an extent) RPGs are pretty flat regardless of extras or beautiful-rendered cutscenes or style drawn whatsoever.

2000-2003 for me. I'm the type of RPG fan that prefers the "SNES" type of RPG, similar to Golden Sun, or something of that sort. You could say I prefer the GBA/DS type of RPG over the typical RPGs seen on the major platforms.

Here we are. In order

1:Secret of Mana
2:Secret of Evermore
3:Seiken Densetsu 3
4:Final Fantasy Adventure
5:Breath of Fire
6:Breath of Fire III
7:Breath of Fire II
8:Chrono Trigger
9:Legend of Mana
10:Wild ARMS 2
(Sadly, my fanboyism shows with this list).

Everything started going downhill in '97, sure a few great titles showed up(Legend of Mana and WA2) but there really hasn't been anything since that time that was earth shattering(NO, FFVII was NOT God, it wasn't even that good of a game).

And being that I couldn't choose the two answers I wanted to, I'll just go ahead and say that between 1990 and 1996 were the best years for RPGs.

Choose 90-94 :)

More likely you like that than 95-99...

Well. You should *definitely* try Shining Force III Book 1 for Saturn. If you enjoy it, burn the others and play them. SFCentral.com I think it is has full text translations for all three books. Beware the horrid voice acting in SFIII though ;( I played SFCD and enjoyed it immensely. I should download it again soon :3

Shadow Hearts I & Shadow Hearts II: Covenant. Play them. #1 might feel weak or have bad voice acting (but it isn't often so no worries). It grows on you. Then you play Covenant. Personally, I rented SH1 and my attention shifted. One thing to bear in mind -- it isn't faithful to the era technologically. If you can't get past this point, the inaccuracies will bother you waaaaaay too much. Shadow Hearts uses real-world people, places, and events with them mixed into the story.

I saw Covenant for pre-order a few years later with an offer -- get SH1 for free with it if you did so. I preordered and once I got it, I played through and finished SH1. Then I hopped right into SH2.

Best gaming follow-up EVER. The ending to SH1 (good or bad) typically meshes with SH2's plot. The acting is fantastic, voices are perfectly assigned, and gameplay is very intriguing. The storyline is incredible and character development is top-notch. SH1 is a very dreary, serious game. SH2 is very light-hearted but it still has flashes of cruelty from SH1.

SH3 builds off of the gameplay from this even further, but I am halfway through it and must say it lacks #2's magic. Possibly because there are no characters from 1 or 2. Still, it is fun. But it only makes me want to return to #2. If they really intrigue you, try playing Koudelka. Koudelka is a prequel to SH1, as a few characters tie them together.

Try Lunar: SSS & Lunar: EB for PS1. They are wonderfully redone, although SSS's depiction of Ghaleon is a bit off. The storyline makes him out to just be entirely evil, unlike CD which had an underlying premise to what he was doing.

Suikoden I & II are also real gems, primarily the latter. I hear Suikoden V is going to be just like I & II if not better than them. I've yet to hear a single negative review.

I seem to have moreso modern RPG opinions, but I'm an old RPG fan. I've been playing since DQI & FFI. They are getting better, believe me. Just hafta keep your ear to the ground.

I could suggest more, quite possibly.

You just need to be more open and try new game series'. No shit you are going to be disappointed if you simply keep away from new franchises and only pay attention to the mainstream RPGs. There are other games besides sequels to classics, ya know? I couldn't possibly choose between eras because I have games I loved to death from the mid 80's all the way up to this year. I never personally felt any sort of "dry spell" or weak time for RPGs.

If anything, it has gotten better if for no other reason than because we get more games than ever these days. (as opposed to only getting a handful of the good releases back on the nes/snes)

I actually do stay away from main stuff now. FF12 will be the first FF game ever made that I will not buy. (besides FFX-2 which is the current only FF i've never bought in my life).

Do strategy RPGs count? Because if that's the case, it would be tied with my number one RPG...

1. Valkyrie Profile
2. Chrono Trigger
3. Suikoden II
4. Final Fantasy IV
5. Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
6. Star Ocean: The Second Story
7. Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete
8. Lunar 2: Eternal Blue
9. Persona 2: Eternal Punishment
10. Tales of (Insert word here)

I'm suprised no one has put up Persona yet...am I the only one who liked that game? As for the 'Tales of' series, I couldn't decide which one, because I liked pretty much all of them. There were a few more RPGs that deserve respect, like Shadow Hearts and the Breath of Fire series but I just couldn't put them up there with the rest.

Me, I liked the set that came out between 2000-2003...Star Ocean II, Valkyrie Profile, Persona 2, Lunar 2, some of the 'Tales of' series was also released between those years. The latest RPGs have been lackluster I'll admit, like Magna Carta, a game that I had anticipated, and though I thought it was good, it didn't meet the standards that I had set for it.

There have been some relatively recent gems namely Valkyrie Profile. Here is my bias:

1) Valkyrie Profile
2) Wild Arms 4
3) Wild Arms 3
4) Wild Arms
5) Romancing SaGa 3
6) Secret of Mana
7) Grandia 2
8) Terranigma
9) Tales of Phantasia
10) Final Fantasy V

I had genuine fun with the top 7 of them. Valkyrie Profile is easily my favourite with all the overkill finishers and incredibly ingenious story, different from most others.

As for Wild Arms 4...LOVE the hex system and overkill princesses Yulie and Raquel. Breaking past "9999" is always attractive to me in an rpg. The Wild Arms system in general is also very sexy (they really fight for second place with me), because I'm just a sucker for the way how in all the games, the strangers just coincidentally meet and then journey on. Together, the strangers get involved in much grander plans than they originally intended. Lots of references to familiar concepts in the games too, and ARM means something different but equally dangerous in each game. This should be saved for a Wild Arms Appreciation thread though.

8) and 9) annoy me in the fact that I got REALLY far in them, but never actually beat the game.

10) was lots of fun trying to master every job by wandering around in the Cleft of Dimension to be able to use any skill you wanted after fighting lots and lots of Movers.



Most newer games are skimping too much on the endings (eg. Radiata Stories :@) and always have some kind of glaring flaw that detracts from how good the game could fully be (eg. recruiting Claudia? That took me hours and hours and she was pretty weak in comparison to the effort and times required)

I admit that even my almost-most favourite game, Wild Arms 5, felt like there could have been a better ending, but it definitely wasn't as terribly dissatisfying as Radiata Stories.

I can still rely on blockbusters like Final Fantasy to give me the endings I crave (nice touch in FF X with that corny but touching moment at the end...you know which one I mean ;) ) As well as for a decent battle/menu system.

The offshoots (yes Radiata again) try new stuff, but I'd rather they fix certain flaws (the time thing...ugh!) to make them even better.

It goes in cycles, since 2001, there has been mediocrity. But this year seems to finally break the trend. Does it always take a Final Fantasy to give other RPG publishers enough of a kick in the ass to try to make a decent RPG:
Here's some great RPGs (I haven't played too many RPGs if you can't tell already, oh and it's in no particular order):

Diablo II
Kingdom Hearts
Final Fantasy X
Final Fantasy VII
Chrono Cross
Chrono Trigger
Dark Cloud 2

There are a lot of RPGs that I like, so it's tough, but I'll try in no particular order:

Final Fantasy VI
Chrono Trigger
Earthbound
Super Mario RPG
Final Fantasy Tactics
Ogre Battle 64
Star Ocean 2
Deus Ex
Legend of Mana
Valkyrie Profile

I grew up with the 16-bit era (started with 8-bit, but I didn't have much of an awareness of the RPG genre at the time), and even going back to play RPGs that I missed from that period, I still find myself enchanted by the older approach that leaves some room for imagination. I like the idea of going out to a mysterious dungeon and essentially making the story happen. Even today I get more immersed in games like Breath of Fire V and SMT Nocturne that essentially use gameplay to tell the story rather than inundating you in dialog. I can't say that I'm fond of the interactive movie approach of many RPGs today. Ironically it's what is likely my favorite RPG (Final Fantasy VI) that did something to push things in that direction, but that one had the right balance in my opinion. So it comes as no surprise to me that some folks from today who claim to play for story find themselves annoyed with the World of Ruin. For me the World of Ruin is essentially what propels the game to greatness with its more open ended approach. (not that the first half isn't awesome, but the freedom of the second half brings balance) Unfortunately it was only the first half that had far reaching effects in the genre. It should've been for the better but Final Fantasy VII (which I do personally think is a pretty good RPG regardless) has ensured that a perversion of the good things which now do more to take the player out of the game for the purpose of putting the story first have had the greater influence. For me to find myself immersed in an RPG, the game needs to find a way of letting me push the story foward here or there without making me feel like I'm just on rails with the only input being the clicks through waves of dialog and cutscenes. It can be as simple as a game having some fun skill systems to tinker with in the meantime, but although it's hard to pin down what I'll really like or won't care for, I know that I gravitate towards RPGs that use their stories to serve the gameplay and not the other way around. It's the interaction between the player and the game that makes gaming special, and RPGs should be at the forefront of this by using the set up of the story as an opportunity to create exciting gameplay and an immersive world.

I surely have a soft spot for the late NES to late 16-bit range of RPGs the same as you. So I do have this feeling that RPGs as a whole haven't been quite as good since. But there are still standouts from the generations that have come after that deserve mention as well. So I won't go as far as to say that RPGs are getting worse. Just that they seem to have to do more to keep my attention for some reason. I think it varies from person to person depending on which RPGs they played first and on their individual tastes. The same as I see many PS1 RPG fans claiming that PS2 RPGs have been disappointing, we'll likely see PS2 RPG fans at some point claiming that PS3 RPGs don't seem to measure up.

I grown up around 16bit games, but didn't get very much RPG exposure until the early 21st century. For me 16bit RPGs have been an aquired taste, which Chrono Trigger has made easier to aquire.

My list (constantly changing...Probably something else entirely on the old forum):

1. Valkyrie Profile
2. Star Ocean 2
3. Final Fantasy VI
4. Suikoden 2
5. Ys VI
6. Chrono Trigger
7. Growlanser 2
8. Atelier Iris Eternal Mana
9. Fire Emblem (the first GBA one)
10. Wild Arms 2

As far as years go, it's kind of tricky to pinpoint where I'd fall into. 2000-2003 had some real gems (namely Valkyrie Profile, Disgaea and GBA Fire Emblem and probably the first Grandia...Dunno if people count Dewprism as an RPG, but I liked that one too), but this was basically the era of basically every major RPG I had waited on tanking or ending up pretty mediocre at best. This is something of a gap in gaming history for me...Next-gen games weren't up to snuff and older era stuff (PS1) was being pushed beyond what the systems could reasonably handle and frankly, weren't that much fun. I spent most of 2001-2003 replaying and catching up on SNES games, outside of Klonoa 2 and Smash Brothers Melee.

I started playing RPG's in 90-94 and a lot of great classics came from that era I remember (Dragon Warrior 3 and 4, the NES and SNES Final Fantasys), but really, the selection pales in comparison to some of the later years (and FFVI was the only one of that group to make my list). 95-99 was pretty good, if only for Chrono Trigger and Mario RPG early on and then the RPG boom from 97 and on.

I have to say, I'm forced to vote for the 2004-present option. We have so many options now, it's silly and the selections I've picked out for myself thus far have yielded some real classics (see list). There's more SRPG's than ever before and more publishers overall (and more of a desire for Japanese companies to bring their games over) and not enough time to play everything, which is a problem I wish I could have had back before I entered the "real" world of work, bills, etc. There's still games out there I would gladly buy (Grandia 3, Wild Arms 4, Fire Emblem Path of Radiance, Fire Emblem Sacred Stones, the Digital Devil Sagas and Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne) but haven't because of lack of time. And there's more than enough coming out this year I'm drooling for (lead by Valkyrie Profile 2, Atelier Iris 2 and Suikoden V, which I may just drop everything and play for 40 consecutive hours once it's out).

The present wins by way of sheer numbers and overall variety, in addition to several great games.

Edit: Woo-hoo, I'm the only who thinks we're in the "golden years" for RPG's now!

1. Planescape: Torment
2. Fallout 2
3. Fallout
4. Final Fantasy 6
5. Baldur's Gate 2
6. Dragon Quest 4
7. Chrono Trigger
8. Wild Arms 3
9. Paper Mario
10. Lunar 2: Eternal Blue (Sega CD)

I worship at the fount of FF6 and CT too, but Square originally built its fanbase on quality. RPGs pretty much peaked in the 90s, and with few exceptions we've been in recession ever since. RPGs like everything else have succumbed to the siren's call of graphics = all, and there's no involved gameplay to distract one from the fact that the stories these games bank on are pretty awful. My picks either boast geuninely well-written scenarios, worthwhile gameplay, or in several cases both.

Yes, motherfucking Paper Mario. After going through shit title after shit title on the PS2, firing up an emulator and playing Paper Mario was a breath of fresh air. Involved gameplay, and a storyline that doesn't take itself too seriously. It beats the unholy shit out of Final Fantasy 7.

Paper Mario was an RPG?

I hate doing this, so much.

1. Chrono Trigger
2. Landstalker
3. Disgaea
4. Final Fantasy VII
5. Final Fantasy VI

Here's 5. I really can't think of any others which I liked. Just looking at people enjoying titles like Atelier Iris makes me wonder if there's something wrong with me, or whether I'm destined to hate games.

1995-1999 was the best period, because Tactics, VI, VII, VIII, Chrono Trigger and Tactics Ogre were made then.

Are we counting Final Fantasy Tactics as a RPG? It's more of a TBS in it's battle system?

If it isn't an RPG, what do you consider it, then? It has the same system as Tactics Ogre, Disgaea/Nippon Ichi titles, and they don't have a catagory apart from "RPG."

Well, actually, the japanese box of Disgaea says sRPG, but I'd say it still counts.

It could easily be considered (confused with?) a strategy game.

So you'd rather group Final Fantasy Tactics with Command & Conquer and Starcraft?

It's possible (though C&C and Starcraft are both RTS, while FFT is TBS). The fact that FFT has a fantasy story and RPG elements does not make it a RPG outright - just like how the movie Alien isn't a sci-fi movie outright - it could be considered horror)

Final Fantasy Tactics
Xenogears
Final Fantasy 6
Chrono Trigger
Front Mission 3
Final Fantasy IX
SaGa Frontier 2
Ogre Tactics

Thats about all I can come up with. There are other RPGs I played - FF7, FF8, FFX, Vandal Hearts, Xenosaga - but either didn't like or can't remember much about them.

Vandal Hearts 2 was bloody amazing... you should check that one out.

Including Strat based stuff then

Disgaea
Vandal Hearts
Final Fantasy Tactics

also rank in my list. They did much right with all the exploding exaggerated attacks in Disgaea, as well as the very colourful depiction of the netherworld.

Vandal Hearts was loads of fun, for some reason I can't pinpoint. It could have been the class changing options, or the blood fountain inducing attacks.

Tactics required careful strategy which I respected a lot. Lots of memorable moments such as being stuck at the execution site battle, beating Queklain with Agrias, and my favourite: Nuking the entire field in the Izlude Battle with a Calculator who used Level 4 Holy.

1. Vagrant Story
2. Final Fantasy Tactics
3. EarthBound
4. Suikoden II
5. Final Fantasy VII

I can only put down five that really seem "list worthy" to me. From this generation, I'd be inclined to include Tales of Symphonia and Baton Kaitos, but those are the only two that come to mind.

I didn't play an RPG until 1995's EarthBound, and even after that it was some time before the genre became a staple in my gaming diet. Has the quality gone down for me? I don't really think so. I think the market has become somewhat flooded though, so there's a larger crap/gem ratio. I think my biggest problem today is trying to figure out which game to spend my time and money on.

Are we talking about them outright sucking or lacking originality?

Lets keep in mind that as games become more and more advanced and more people have access to better technology, the number of games pumped out will increase over time. Of course theres going to be unwanted market flood - theres less risk of an investment now than there was in 1985 when not everyone had a NES

In many cases, one follows the other. Shadow Hearts 2 for example would have otherwise been an excellent game, but it was destroyed by its tired by-the-numbers storyline. Like so many other games, it started out good, but then the writers got lazy and fell back on the Big Book of RPG Cliches.

I'm just sick and tired of yelling at the screen trying to make the protagonist stop being an idiot, and having my intelligence insulted by plot twists I can see coming a hundred miles away. Seymour turns out to be a bad guy? Gosh, I never would have guessed.

1. Knights of the Old Republic
2. Suikoden 2
3. Front Mission 3
4. Tales of Symphonia
5. Chrono Trigger
6. Shadow Hearts Covenant
7. Tales of Legendia
8. Dragon Force (this count? Well it does now)
9. Skies of Arcadia
10. Grandia

I'm all over the place in terms of time periods. I can't pick just one. Also that list isn't in any particular order. There will always be good games and bad games, and frankly I haven't had anymore trouble finding good RPGs than I have in the past. The only difference now is that there's more crap out there.

For me I think there should be two lists. One for console games, which although there have been a few games that are decent and new, the better ones seem to be older. One for computer RPGs, which unlike consoles, have been getting better and better as time goes on.

Consoles:
1. Final Fantasy Tactics
2. Final Fantasy IV
3. Chrono Cross
4. Final Fantasy VI
5. Shining Force
6. Valkyrie Profile
7. Final Fantasy
8. Dragon Warrior (honestly, I've never played any of the sequals!)
9. Disgaea
10. Final Fantasy Adventure

Computer: (I'm classifying the XBox games that are on here as Computer games, as they are done with the idea of porting it over anyway. And they are better on the computer anyways. :) )
1. KOTOR
2. Diablo
3. Baldur's Gate
4. Fable
5. Diablo II
6. KOTOR 2
7. Heroes of Might and Magic 3
8. Neverwinter Nights
9. Good and Evil
10. Dungeon Siege

As far as FF Tactics, I do classify that as an RPG, and very different from Starcraft et al., mainly due to the turn based nature of it's gameplay, as opposed to real-time strategy of the others. I find the focus to be on the story and characters rather than the gameplay itself, which are the meat of Starcraft/Warcraft/Warlords Battlecry/Seven Kingdoms (which are the best in the genre, IMO).

Computer games seem to be going in a completely different direction than consoles, in that they seem to favor more "live action" type elements than the turn based style of consoles. Although recent releases for the PS2 have got me thinking about that. How about The Bard's Tale game, or Champions of Norath, or X-Men Legends? Those are great games, and they are done in the favored "computer style" of Diablo/Dungeon Siege/Nox. Maybe console games will get better in the future, or rather, there might be more of a "blurring" between the genres, so we end up with better games overall. That's my hope.

1. Xenogears (1998)
2. Suikoden II (1997)
3. Skies of Arcadia Legends (2003)
4. Final Fantasy IX (2000)
5. Baten Kaitos (2004)
6. Final Fantasy Tactics (1998)
7. Alundra (1997)
8. Legend of Mana (2000)
9. Secret of Mana (1993)
10. Chrono Cross (2000)

Honorable mentions:
11. Crystalis (1990, for old time's sake, but it was really good for its time!)
12. Secret of Evermore (1995, poor black sheep of Squaresoft, I enjoyed you!)

It would seem 1995-1999 takes it, but 3 are lying on the cusp of the next group (FF9, LoM, CC, (and Vagrant Story?!) in 2000...woa, that was a crazy good year for Square). I do feel like that was the "golden age" of RPGs for me, I don't know if I'll ever encounter that again. Since 2000 there haven't been many stellar RPGs for my tastes. Even Skies of Arcadia was released originally in 2000, but I never had a DC. This makes Baten Kaitos the only RPG since 2000 that I really got enthused about. I did like FFX, Suikoden III, and Dark Cloud 2, but they would be further down the list and didn't quite have the lasting appeal of anything in the top 10.

I guess you can count me with those of the opinion that the neverending drive for "better" graphics (= more realistic? who knows, but I'd take LoM-style graphics to absolute realism any day) in the new console generations hasn't been kind to RPGs. Maybe video games have become too mainstream for RPGs to really be made like they used to. Perhaps some of the developers' vision is being sacrificed to the need to now push as many copies as you can out the door. Maybe developers' visions simply aren't as good as they used to be. There's just something lacking now and I can't put my finger on it :\

With Atelier Iris, it depends how much you get out of the item-making system (s). I personally had more fun getting every piece of junk onto the shopkeeper's lists than I did the main "RPG"-ish stuff (though the battle system was pretty good...kind of like an improved FFX, with the character-swapping and cutting back on the like-character-kills-like-enemy gameplay). Plus the handdrawn sprites and backgrounds were a well-done rarity from most RPG's nowadays.

You'll be really disappointed if you play this game expecting well-thought-out characters and a deep, insightful plot.

Same here! I was obssessed with trying to make the Chronolex rather than going after Amalgam. The synthesis portion of the game was one of the highlights, although the battle system was rather simple. Most people would be rather turned off by Atelier Iris, what with the anime styled characters and material respawning.
I guess different games would have different criteria for "suckiness".

I mean, Baten Kaitos was gorgeous looking, but out of all the voice acting in the world, Xelha has sinned unforgivably. The card system turned lots of people off, but drew in people like me.

FFXII seems to be doing just that. I have high hopes for it and with Famitsu scoring it 40/40, things are looking up.

I forgot to list Grandia. That should make my top ten as well. Not..enough..space...

I don't have a favorite era. Some come out that are awesome, then there will be a lull. Lulls are good because it helps me catch up playing the decent games that come out at different times.

1. FFVII
2. Star Ocean 2
3. Kingdom
4. Chrono Trigger
5. FFVI
6. Disgaea
7. Wonder Project J
8. Wild ARMs
9. Xenogears
10. Final Fantasy IX

Many other RPGs that could make this list, but these are my top 10, spanning many years.

Not that I listen to reviews that much...I judge games on my own terms. Hell, I love all of the Armored Core games, even though most now get dismal reviews. I will give FFXII a chance. Hopefully it delivers, but it does have a lot to make up for in my eyes.

1. Suikoden II
2. Parasite Eve
3. Thousand Arms
4. Granstream Saga
5. Link to the Past
6. Super Mario RPG
7. Vagrant Story
8. Final Fantasy VI
9. Grandia II
10. Shadow Hearts

Ok so I voted for the wrong time period. Should have voted for the year 1995. I do not think RPG's are going down hill in a sense. However I do feel that developers have ran out of new ideas. We are seeing some of the same elements in RPG's today that we've seen in ones that were before thier time. Including storyline and character development/personality. It's getting to a point for me where I'm not looking for a stunning story in an RPG anymore but rather what kind of battle system will it have. These are becoming better and better. An exception to this is Xenosaga Episode II - the zone break battle system wasn't too great.

I rarely participate in people's nostalgia-fests, but this thread in particular really eats at me. >_<

One of the above posters suggesting that console RPGs are getting worse, and PC games are getting better only shows his experience with PC RPGs is limited and he's only just now getting into the genre (when the total amount of development going into the genre has been decreasing, and the amount of creative developers have been fleeing the field >_<). While console RPGs are continuing to diversify, niche and create entirely new and different experiences for the first time after a long period of time of being weak W-RPG clones.

Ah well...

I personally have a very hard time choosing a top 10; hell I have a hard time choosing a top 40, but I'll list some of my favourites and their time of release:

Wizardry 8 (2002)
Legend of Mana (2000)
SaGa Frontier 2 (2000)
Romancing SaGa: Minstrel's Song (2005)
Ogre Battle 64: Persons of Lordly Caliber (2000)
Fire Emblem: Thracia 776 (1998)
System Shock 2 (1997)
Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories (2005)
Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (2003)
Vagrant Story (2000)

I've been playing RPGs since I was introduced to Wizardry 2 at age 5, so I'm not new to the genre. These titles have just managed to impress me the most for their creativity and overall playing experience. Console RPGs still haven't hit their peak, and there was as much crap (actually more) released during the SNES and PSX generations as there is now. I really don't understand the concern of there being a sudden flood of crap when there always has been.

I could be off base not knowing any of you, but my guess is most of us haven't played every RPG in every generation. We tend to focus on the half dozen or dozen RPGs we personally know and base our understandings of the genre during that time on these games.

For example, how could I possibly have a well nformed opinion about the 8 bit era when I missed the first Final Fantasy? And why has no one mentioned a Phantasy Star? Certainly missing that game limits your ability to judge the era.

Maybe no one felt it worthy of making their list. I enjoyed PS2 and PS4, but I don't think they belong in my top 10 RPGs.

I hate handheld systems, but I like those type of games too. That's why I love my Gameboy Player.

Anyhow my top 10 rpgs, in no particular order(I don't feel like rating them against each other right now)

Dragon Force
Final Fantasy 4
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy 7
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Warrior 4
Star Ocean 2
Valkyrie Profile
Breath of Fire 2
Disgaea

Now, I actually haven't played many PS2 RPGs. I actually have quite a few of them but I haven't gotten around to play them cause of MMORPGs. But I don't think it's really that RPGs are getting worse. It's because their are more rpgs being made so at the same time there are going to be more that suck. It's like this with any type of game that's popularity spawns similar games. I mean for example look at all the horrible GTA clones(I hate GTA anyhow but that's not the point).

Ever since Final Fantasy 7, RPGs have been getting more attention. So if people are trying to pump out more games just because RPGs have a wider fanbase now, of course we're gonna start getting alot of crap games. But there are still the gems out there worth playing amongst it all too.

My point was actually that a lot of people haven't played the games, though, and hence top ten lists are very arbitrary, mine included. A game isn't like a movie that you can take out in an hour and a half, a song you can hear in three minutes, or a painting you can look at for a minute and a half. Because they are so long most people miss out on a large number of them.

1. Shadow Hearts II
2. Shadow Hearts
3. Xenogears
4. Suikoden V
5. Suikoden II
6. Final Fantasy Tactics
7. Valkyrie Profile
8. Grandia
9. Breath of Fire III
10. Mario RPG


It's funny, ask me of this a few years ago and my list would have been dominated by SNES era titles. But lately my tastes have changed and I think my focus has been on characters in RPGs more than anything else. My top 10 list seems to reflect this now as it is pretty much ranked as I would rank the cast.

Just to note, I've been playing RPGs for a while as well. Ultima around when I was 5 (1985) and Dragon Warrior (1989) were my first RPGs and I've played nearly every console and quite a few PC RPGs released since those two. Personally I don't believe the quality of RPGs is declining, rather I think the expectations people place on RPGs is ever increasing. I go back and play a lot of those good SNES RPGs and find myself realizing that they really don't have much to offer over current RPGs other than the fact that they introduced the common cliche rather than follow them. I used to feel different, thinking the SNES era was the golden age, but I've since released that I play RPGs simply for the entertainment factor, not to find my next level of enlightenment or something.

1. Fallout
2. Knights of the Old Republic 2
3. Fallout 2
4. Planescape: Torment
5. Suikoden 2

1995-1999 was the last great age of RPGs, since it was the last time you had a lot of titles that featured interactive narratives.

Somewhere in the mix between Final Fantasy 7, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Knights, and Oblivion, people forgot what roleplaying is all about. (or, as a consequence of them, never knew it)

I can't sum it up any better than that. I miss my decent story lines.

It's not a matter of having a good story, it's having an interactive one. Hentai games have more roleplaying elements than RPGs.

1. Final Fantasy 6
2. Final Fantasy 5
3. Final Fantasy 4
4. Seiken Densetsu
5. Final Fantasy Tactics
6. Shining Force 2
7. Final Fantasy 7
8. Legend of Mana
9. Fallout

And everything after that doesn't really matter. I'm a big fan of the "old-school" traditional RPGs with the ATB system from Final Fantasy, explaining the large showing of Final Fantasy. I'm all for blending RPGs into other genres, but those that make sense. Pushing it into Seiken Densetsu and Legend of Mana is about as far as I would like RPGs to become in the Action type games. Turn-based strategy games have also always had a place in my heart, explaining the showing of Shining Force 2 (I like all of them, but especially this one) and Final Fantasy Tactics. Newer RPGs.....I dunno, I've lost contact after Final Fantasy 9 becuse I don't own a PS2. From what I've seen, FF10 is bearable but is cutting it close. FF12, from what I hear, completely alienates me. It's, for a lack of better words, "too different". Therefore, I'd have to go with 1990-1995 (even though some of those come later). Fallout was probably the one "true" RPG in its most basic level, playing a single character throughout several scenarios where actions at one point in the game affect those later on down the line.

I can't speak generally here, since I'm not your usual gamer and the way I see things is, well, odd. So, an answer to the topic, most true in my case: I grew up. I never even bothered with the underground stuff, maybe unconsciously knowing what I'd find there would be crap to me.

Some favourite RPGs:

Final Fantasy V, VIII
Xenogears
Chrono Cross
Suikoden series
Parasite Eve
Lunar 1-2
Alundra 1-2

My days of delving into a fantasy world through the mind of an ANONYMOUS protagonist are over, I guess. And the days were the late 1995-1999's.

Here are some of my favorite RPGs (not in any particular order):

Shadow Hearts
Shadow Hearts II
Breath of Fire II
Breath of Fire IV
Tales of PHantasia
Vagrant Story

I'm pretty young, and I started to seriously game only a few years ago, even though I was around games for the majority of my life.

That being said, I think I'm a bit biased about the "best" RPGs. I think the 1999-2004 was a great time for RPGs, but that's only because I played most of my favorite RPGs during that time (even the old ones, like Breath of Fire II)

But...dunno, I guess 1994-1999 was the best years...?

My main reasoning behind it is that it seems that Console RPGs seem to be ever-increasing towards the style of "playing a book" rather than actually having an involving playstyle. Lately it seems that the genre revolves around the story more than character development, and choices from the player as well as freedom within the story are becoming very limited. My main concern is that if I wanted a book, I would read a book, which does it much better than a game does. Instead I want a game, that not only has good story and such, but the freedom to have fun within the game.

Computer games rather than console games seem to get this. Look at Oblivion, Fable, the Baldur's Gate games, Dungeon Siege, KOTORs, Neverwinter Nights, etc. etc. All of these gear towards character customization and allowing you to play a character with the freedom you want, while still telling a good story. Console games hardly do that anymore.

I do agree, there has been crap released on all sides of the fence, but it seems to me that the games that stand out on the console side have much better lasting appeal and replay value, just due to the freedom of them. I just don't see the same thing out of Console RPGs. As well, the more "adult" themes of Computer based RPGs appeal to me more than the "cartoony" kids-friendly Console RPGs. Maybe I've just gotten too old, heh.

BTW, I have been truly "in the genre" since Final Fantasy I on the Nintendo, so I do have a lot of experience playing these games to judge for myself what I like, and what I don't like. It seems while trying to "diversify" and "create a new experience", console RPGs in general have been losing something...that it is more than just the story that makes a good RPG. To make it a good experience, you need to be able to set your own mark on the game, rather than be able to conform to what someone tells you your mark should be. They give you the character and tell you more or less to like it or leave it. Computer RPGs give you the story, the world etc, and then have you create a character based on how you want to play, thus letting you experience the game based on your own playstyle, which makes for a far better game overall.

Exactly. That's why I consider gameplay in an RPG my most important aspect while I consider storyline about 3rd. (Char development is 2nd). I care way more about the actual gameplay.

People have been playing books for decades. They're called choose your own adventure. This is what RPGs are lacking. Choice.

Don't take him too personally. Utopia has a huge elitist streak. His preference in RPGs is directly proportional to how obscure and inaccessible a game is.

The biggest problem I see in RPGs these days is that designers seem to think they have to decide between a linear storyline with no room for player input, or a game that allows for player choice but contains a barebones storyline at best. This is simply not true, as demonstrated by the games that are frequently at the top of people's lists, like Torment and KOTR.

Unfortunately, the middle ground requires work on the part of developers. If not branching storylines, you at least need branching quest lines and quest solutions. Planescape: Torment was as linear as they come storywise, but there was a hell of a lot of room for personal involvement, not only from how you built your character, but what interim quests were available and how you actually approached them.

Most current RPGs don't even give you any control over how your character develops. There's variety to be had simply in deciding to play through the game as a thief instead of a wizard, but you don't even get that anymore. The sphere system in FFX was largely irrelevant, since most of the cast was pretty well set on very specific paths, and the one wild card - Kimahri - usually wound up gimped unless you had a very specific goal in mind.

Non-linear gameworlds don't necessarily have to possess bareboned storylines, so much as they can possess several independant and intertwining storylines to be activated as the player comes across them.

Take Fallout for instance. Yes, there was an overriding need to find the water chip, but you don't have to settle the dispute between Killian and Gizmo in order to find it. Yet, how the player settles things in Junktown affects his overall reputation in the gameworld, how NPCs react to him, and how the scenario for Junktown plays out in the endgame due to the player character's actions.

The difference in game design is whether or not designers want the quest to be the focus of the game, or if they want the experience to be the focus. Not to say, of course, that focusing on an overarching narrative is necessarily a bad thing, but if the player has no input in its outcome, then what's the point of even playing? What's the point in making a game?

I've said on here many times that I think RPGs are getting worse. That combined me getting bored with the repetitiveness of them. How about some new original ideas and characters? The badass characters are slowly fading. I miss the days of Kain, Cecil, Shadow, etc.

1. Final Fantasy VII
2. Suikoden 2
3. Suikoden
4. Chrono Trigger
5. Dragon Force
6. Panzer Dragoon Saga
7. Final Fantasy IV
8. Final Fantasy VI
9. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
10. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

There are a lot of games I could add as honorable mentions, like the Wild Arms 1 and 2, Final Fantasy Tactics/8/9/10, Vandal Hearts, and just so much more. But the majority of my favorite RPGs are from the pre-next gen era. I do think they are getting worse.

All signs in this post point to you needing a hearty dose of Suikoden V medicine. :edgarrock:

And Shadow Hearts I/II for his bad-ass character desire.

I own all 3 of those games. I liked SH a lot, but I give SH2 and Suikoden V both meh's.

I never finished SH2 and Suikoden V though. Got too bored, I just can't finish them.

Which is why I said I think half of it is me, and half of it are the games. I can't finish RPGs not named The Elder Scrolls anymore. I did beat Star Ocean 3 and Tales of Symphonia though. But the last 5 RPGs I bought, I can't finish and get incredibly bored of them.

Suikoden V and Shadow Hearts 2, being 2 of those games. Kingdom Hearts 2 being another one of them. I thought SH2 ruined Yuri with his girly voice, and I couldn't take the random battles anymore.

Just curious: How far into Suiko V did you play? S5 definitely takes its' sweet time getting jump-started, I can vouch for, but it ended up improving on 2 in so many ways I thought...the warfare battles, more ways to prepare your party (formations, skills) , more plot twists, the "next-gen" treatment (cutscenes, voice acting), more interesting characters (IMO, of course) and all of the good things the series is known for. I'm just a tad surprised you had Suikoden 2 and 1 at #2 and #3 respectively and didn't think much of it...I put 54 hours into a "bad" run of it and I'm about 10 hours into a "good" run now. It's actually rekindled my own RPG "spirit".

I think I was 6 hours into Suikoden V. Yea, I know, not a lot, but I'm not patient when it comes to stuff like games. I can't drag through hours upon hours of boredom. I just usually shut it off, and pop in another game.

The last game I beat that I hated was Final Fantasy X-2. I hated that game and everything about it pretty much, and I dragged myself through it hoping it would get better, but it didn't.

I'll eventually get around to beating Suikoden V, and even IV which I also own and couldn't beat, but I'm a tad angry that Pesmerga(my favorite Suikoden character of the series) isn't in one since 2.

Just a heads up...You're probably well into what is just a playable opening. Get past the stupid Sacred Games stuff (which go on for WAY too long), click past the next two or three groups of scenes and wait for the good stuff to unfold (sort of like how S2 gets better once you get away from Victor's Fort). And I thought Tri-Ace's "playable openings" were insanely long...

I personally didn't like Suiko IV all that much (4-man parties...WHY!? And the boat thing...) and I haven't paid it much attention. I was psyched for V just as a "return to greatness" deal. Once I get the good ending on V, I might go back to it, since it's supposed to at least be pretty short (20-25 hours).

But I can see what you mean...Any game in the past I've truly hated didn't make it past the 20 hour mark (most I stopped well before that). I have a copy of Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana and I've put 20 hours on it over the past year...It's fun, but I rarely have the motivation to play. And then there's Star Ocean 3, which I waited years for and I've touched for a grand total of 7 hours since it came out (not a fan of this version of the battle system).

Star Ocean 3 started out slow for me too, but I really loved it. It was one of my favorite games in the last 5 years. Good plot twists, and I loved the battle system. It had it's flaws, but I'm so glad I played through it.

Here's my top ten though they are not really in any type of order.

1. Secret of Mana
2. Final Fantasy 7
3. Final Fantasy 9
4. Star Ocean: The Second Story
5. Star Ocean: Till The End of Time
6. Final Fantasy X-2
7. Tales of Destiny
8. Final Fantasy 4
9. Zelda Minish Cap
10. Mario RPG

I think for the most part, you enjoy the games you played when you were younger more becuase you didn't realize at the time that no RPG is really as deep as it wants you to think it is. I'd much rather have fun playing a game like Star Ocean or FF X-2 than be bogged down by the boredom of a game that takes itself too seriously like Xenogears/saga.

I have to say RPGs aren't getting worse; I have high hopes for games like FFXII, Dragon Age, Mass Effect...

But, you sound like you want an average; and unfortantely I haven't played tons of the non-big name games throughout the years.

But if I were to just choose one time period from my list [below] I'd choose late 90s to early 00s as a prime time for many good rpgs.

Coming off the heels of legends like FF3, SoM, Chrono Trigger;
FF7, FF8, FFT, Baldur's Gate Saga 1,2 , Lunar, Saga Frontier 2, Morrowind, etcc
I probably spent more time with these than any of the others. [except Ultima 6,7,8]


Here is a short list that helped me figure it out:
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, early Ultimas [middle 80s]
Crystalis, Final Fantasy [late 80s]
Final Fantasy 2 (ff4), Ultima 7, Lufia, [early 90s]
Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Shining Force 2 [middle 90s]
Final Fantasy Tactics, Daggerfall, Final Fantasy 7,8 [late 90s]
Baldur's Gate 2, Morrowind, Final Fantasy X [early 00s]
Xenosaga, Digital Devil Saga, Shadow Hearts 2, Disgaea [middle 00s]
FFXII is coming...

Note to self:
Nope I wouldn't say games are getting worse at all. And as for an average, it would simply end up a numbers game; [look up the most popular games from everyones lists, find which ones show up in the shortest amount of time; and most (assign some kind of number value system); and/or maybe figure out which years had the greatest amount of RPG sales, in proportion to the amount of gamers buying], etc etc... sounds like school work

You said something interesting there. Kain, Cecil, and Shadow are indeed bad ass characters, but notice how they're superficially no different than pretend-badass characters like Cloud, Sephiroth, or Amarant. Cecil and Kain have their fair share of angst, and Shadow is just as bad as any other over-the-top-look-how-awesome-and-cool-I-am character.

The difference? They don't wallow in it. Cecil is forced pretty quickly to get over himself, unlike Squall or Fei who spend the entire game being unlikable emo bitches. Kain has brief angsty moments, but doesn't dwell on it, and saves the weepy stuff for non-critical moments. Sorry I tried to kill you and take your woman, Cecil, but right now it's more important that I use Jump on this boss. And Shadow? He's professional. He doesn't get pretentious about his motives or badass ninja skillz, he just does the job he's paid to do.

Square's writers lately have taken to copying the form, but not the function of the badass archetypes. That's why you end up with guys like Cloud who spend all their time being emo instead of picking their ass up, turning off the Robert Smith, and getting out there to kick some proper ass.

Good point. I always compare that type to Cyan. Cyan lost just as much if not more than Cloud but does he get caught up in some angsty revenge quest for the duration of the game? I think not. He experiences the self-loathing and such, but he tends to handle things in a more mature way, and he doesn't treat others like garbage just because "my suffering is greater than yours and you could never understand".

personally I think we all love RPGs from whatever period our first few were from. I love teh Super Mario RPG era because that was my first RPG.

I tend to agree. And new RPGs also have to compete with a time when the entire genre was new and exciting. It's simply impossible to recapture the experience of playing your first few good RPGs.

I love Super Mario RPG because I think it's a great game in any era.

I agree with that somewhat...The catch being, the ones that do successfully compete with the nostalgic impulses wind up becoming legends in the player's minds as well. One reason I'm in love with Suikoden V (and the series in general) is there's so much more (well-done) character interaction, plot twists (including the many "holy shit" moments) and gameplay options than even the best SNES RPG's. Likewise, Valkyrie Profile...Completely original battle system when it came out and I'll take that over good old CT or FF6's gameplay anytime. And also, strat RPG's are new for a lot of people, so games like Fire Emblem and the Nippon Ichi titles have (almost) a clean slate for people new to that style of play.

Heh, I played the hell out of FFIV, FFVI, CT and Mario RPG back in the day and I'll always look to them as great examples of what got me into RPG's. But at the end of the day, it's Suiko V and II, VP, Star Ocean 2 and La Pucelle claiming my top five spots (not in that order, but still).

I wonder if Suikoden V can somehow turn out to be better than Suikoden II. I'm six hours in.

I'm sure you already know how I agree that Valkyrie Profile and Star Ocean 2 are great games. However, the somewhat rudimentary gameplay of Suikoden has always been serviceable to the story, which means that it'll never be able to impress me very much by itself.

The greatest thing about Suikoden for me has been the soundtrack of the original game.

Just get past the playable opening and you'll see...:biggrin:

I generally agree on the main gameplay (unless you count finding characters as being a large part of the gameplay), but the large-scale battles stole the show for me this time around. The normal battles are also far more in-depth this time around, with the addition of formations and skills (not to mention the impressive number of party choices the series always has).

I'm not talking just personality, but appearance too. To me, to be completely badass you need both personality AND appearance. You can have the most badass personality ever, but if you look like Tidus, then I'm sorry, you aren't a badass.

Shadow, Kain, and Cecil had both IMO.

But lately, Square has had the characters look like every day people. Nothing unique about the appearance, which to me is important. Would it hurt to have the main character dress in a nice dark suit of armor or cloak with a cool looking helmet or mask? Why do they have to be regular looking people?

I mean, even Cloud was technically normal looking, but he had the spikey hair, the badass sword, and some cool armor on. Sephiroth had the silver hair, the cool clothes, and the masamune. Why can't Square RPGs today have any unique cool characters?

I guess I'm pretty close to things opening up more then. I'm up to the final match of the Sacred Games. (actually, I got past it, but I didn't like Belcoot losing; does the possibility hinge on what you tell Marina that night?) I'll play more of it tonight.

No, it's all scripted. There's no way Belcoot can win.

I'd say you have about 1 1/2-2 hours worth of material to get through from there before things pick up (more characters to introduce, plus Raftfleet...THEN it gets fun), though pay attention to what you're told at the east palace...It'll help you understand a cool plot twist later on. You'll know it when it gets good...It's anything but subtle.

Eh, You do realize that your comparing a 50 year old man man to someone who's barley out of this teens, not to mention your taking account upbringing and lifestyle, right?

Of course generally Cyan would be a more mature person since his lived his life, and has a family. But the situations that he and Cloud went through are very much different. Yes both had their hometowns destroyed losing both they families, but at least Cyan wasn't experimented on afterward and had his mind warped, or became a failure nor did he end up questioning his very existence due to some shocking events. What Cloud went through would have broken anyone down especially with the consistent disarray his mind was in. He was only able to move on once he entered the lifestream and piece his past together with Tifa.

Let's not forget that Cyan did let death's of his clouded his judgement as he refused Sabin's help at first and would have attacked Celes and Terra had none of the returners stopped him because they were once associated with the Empire. Even after the battle at Narshe he still didn't trust Celes and did not let go of his grieving until you did his subquest.

As far as Kain, Shadow and Cecil are concern, they dealt pasts and predicaments for quite awhile.

Cecil got over his the fastest since he had made his decision to stand against Baron at the start of the game after coming to terms of what went at the Village of the Myst (and his long indecisive period), through whenever the Mystdia(Sp?) issue came up he would be depressed again.

Shadow grieving over his past IS his entire character. It's why he's emotionless assassin who would kill your party if the price was right, without batting a eyelash. He's not much different than Cloud at the start of the FFVII, and unlike Cloud he never gets developed and at the end of FFVI chooses to die in a tower instead of moving on with his current life.

Kain angsted for more than 70% the game and was responsible for a lot of the parties hardships because of it. He let Goldbez control him through his jealously of Cecil and Rosa which almost got Rosa killed. He doesn't began find redemption for himself until the end of the game.

Funny how Ramza didn't angst all the time despite being a younger fellow. Since when is maturity directly proportional to age anyways? Some of us don't prefer for heroes to wallow in self-doubt and be carried by others. I don't care how realistic and compelling someone else thinks it is. I think emo characters like Squall are excessive and unrealistic in how they treat others like crap and yet manage to engender concern and compassion.

That's just good development. They explain right after Cyan gets enraged at the sight of Celes that although the Empire may be evil, not all of its people are. At the Emperor's Banquet, the right choice for Cyan is to let Kefka stew in prison for a while rather than just kill him. That's different from Cloud who even by the end of the game still focuses on "settling the score" with Sephiroth.

I'm sure that's why he helps you escape the Floating Continent. And there's no proof that he commits suicide at the end of FFVI. That end segment is there to show how he finally decides to let go of the past.

I agree that Cecil shouldn't have continued to put up with Kain's treachery after being betrayed by him on numerous occasions. However, the poison of angst didn't completely seep into the series and begin to bring it down until FF7 with its typical anime rivalry business. Mind you, I still think FF7 is a very good game for a number of reasons, but it's a shame that FF6 was the last of the series to have a great cast.

Ramza was also a naivete Noble with a pampered childhood. In the start of the game not one pinch hardship had come into aside from his father's death. Atleast he still had Alma, Delita and brothers in his family. It's much different than say Clouds, or, Celes who were understandably cold people from the beginning.

Most of time it is in RPGs. The fact of the matter is that Cyan has gone through more events in his life that has shape him into who he is than either Cloud or Ramza, but some cases Cloud and Ramza have gone through worse. Growing environment also counts toward how a person perceives his/her surroundings.

Well, you just have accept that. There are many different types of heroes and not all of them will have happy outlook on life depending on their circumstances with they own reasons. Some people like those type of Characters while others don't. Same goes for the reverse.

Also one other thing Cloud=/=Squall, while Cloud isn't one of my favorite Characters he was hardly emo for much of the game. It only persisted from beginning of the game until they left Midgar.

It doesn't stop his distrust in her even after the battle at Narshe when she fought against her own comardes, and was ready to believe what Kekfa said about her, and this after Edgar said that.

I don't ever remember that or, any of the questions at the Banquet being Cyan's choice or, any of the other Characters for that matter. All of them where more player choices than to anyone specifically in your group.

There also big different between your Arch enemy in Jail, and your Arch Enemy walking around and continuing on with his/her path of slaughter which eventually lends to a great catastrophe. Also there the fact that said Arch enemy is subconsciously controlling you to follow him (due to Jenova Cells) so, no matter what you do, you soon meet up with him again and do his bidding. Besides had Kefka not been in that Jail cell I'm quite sure Cyan would have killed him.

As Shadow himself states, he only helps you because the Empire betrays and leaves him to die. He was only interested in getting back at them.

Considering that he sends his dog to your party and the only way in or, out of Kefka's Tower is by air along with point that he isn't with your characters on the only way out of there, I say he's pretty much dead. Shadow would either fall to his death or be crushed by the crumbling Tower.

Yes he does decide at thar point to let go of his greving after holding on to it for so long through the game by killing himself and hoping to be reborn into a better life. This what I understood from his comment.


Yeah, but Cecil from the beingnning of the game to the end has always been shown to be a big softy as wll as a bit naviete.

However, the poison of angst didn't completely seep into the series and begin to bring it down until FF7 with its typical anime rivalry business.[/QUOTE]

Nope. Angst has been part of series every since they started having actual plot, i.e since FFIV and onward. I don't see the issue with this through because conflict created between your party aside form villain makes the story more interesting and realistic especially you characters were once former enemies of each other.

The whole "typical anime rivalry business" has also exist since FFIV. The rivalry, however has not always been shared the opposite person, or is even there at all.

Example:

FFIV, Kain saw Cecil as a rival through Cecil did not.
FFVI, had little no rivalry save for the small bit with Sabin and Vargas.
FFVII, Speth barley gave a damn about Cloud other than when he wanted to screw with his mind to get what he wanted. It was Cloud who wanted to settle things.
FFVIII, Squall and Seifer, pretty much explantory.
FFIX, Zidane and Kuja were pretty much rivals.
FFX, pretty much like FFVI. Tidus hates Jecht for what he did, than anything with rivalry, through it's a bit of a "icing on the cake" so to speak.

Personaly, I don't see the problem with rivalry. It's a lot better than FFI-V and IX chessy "big bad guy" who appears out of nowhere at the last point of the game with little personality or, motivation for what they do. Kefka sort of fit's here but he's got a personality that saves him.

I strong disagree with you since FFVII and FFX had great casts with evry other FF game save for FFI-III and V having decent casts. This if we are just talking about the main series.

For me if we included all the games and I only could pick 5, it would look like this:

FFVI
FFX
FFT (through unfortunately only Ramza and Delita get development)
FFVII
FFIX

The time period is irrelevant for me because I was playing a number of these games through emulation: either because we'd never been graced with an Australian release, or with translation patches. As such, identifying with a specific period doesn't make much sense, at least not for me.

The following are some of the titles that won me over from the SNES/Genesis era
-Tales of Phantasia
-Phantasy Star IV
-Chrono Trigger
-Final Fantasy VI
-Dragon Quest VI

There are others, which probably goes some way to explaining why I skipped the whole PS1/2 era -an explosion of translation releases for the SFC (Star Ocean, Live-a Live, Treasure Hunter G, Romancing Saga 3 etc) kept me more than occupied. I don't think I'm able to comment on whether RPGs have as a whole gone downhill, partially because I've missed playing a huge selection of them.

The more recent titles I have played thoroughly have been on PC.
-Neverwinter Nights
-Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
-KOTOR I & II
-Planescape Torment

Oblivion has been positively mind-blowing yet still accessible. The number of hours I've already clocked up is staggering considering my current partial/casual gamer status. When I think about why I could never get into these types of games in the past, I realise now that the main stumbling block seemed to be in the initial character creation. Compared to the majority of the console RPGs which have defined character/hero roles with pre determined progressions and development; for the young gamer having the freedom of near total customisation can be a daunting barrier to enjoyment. I suppose now I’ve come accustomed to it and my tastes have developed somewhat.

Still, I find them all engrossing and enjoyable just like the old days of the ROM hunting and waiting for translation patches. If and when RPGs do appear to get significantly worse (and by this I mean a consistent glut of crap RPGs across both consoles and PC), I’ll probably skip them and play something else until some higher standard is reached.

I wouldn't know when was the best RPG period since i only started playing RPGs since a few years (around 2000). But I would say that on a storyline base, RPGs are getting worse. Based on graphics, I say that graphics do make a bad RPG game seem bareable!

It's only natural. Locke still wasn't sure about her either once Kefka made the claim, and the two had a closer relationship than she ever had with Cyan. It just shows that the characters are human and that Kefka is one devious bastard.

Gestahl apologizes to Cyan directly at the banquet. Not sure if you have to have Cyan in your active party for it to happen though. Anyways, the point is that by the end of the game Cyan is more concerned with moving on than with avenging the deaths of his wife and son. In FFVII I almost feel bad for Sephiroth when Cloud kills him. It just didn't seem right for him to savor the vengeance like that. It wouldn't have been right for Zidane to have finished off Kuja in FFIX either. It's unheroic.

There's more to Shadow than meets the eye. He claims to not care but goes out of his way during certain events to help you out. But you know that already. I think it's meant to be understood through subtle behaviors that he does still have a heart in there somewhere even though he seems so cold. The way he tries to comfort Terra a bit (even if it comes off as cold, which is simply his style) during the boat trip to Thamasa, for example.

You got the idea about rebirth, but I think they keep it vague because you're not really supposed to know whether he lives or dies. Or rather, it's not important given the nature of the storytelling throughout the game. You know, with the theme of hope and all.

See Monkey King's post before about wallowing in angst. Of course angst has its role. But characters didn't begin to swim in it until FFVII. FFVI had the right balance between dealing with your emotions and dealing with reality. FFVII steers more towards stereotypes with brooding fellows like Vincent and that shady Tifa. The "who am I" bits seem to get taken too far sometimes. If the end result is a contrived plot device like FFVIII's orphanage scene, then it's disappointment city for me. Obviously not everyone will agree with me, but I know some do.

How is that? FFVI doesn't make use of the villain=father cliche. I suppose you could draw some parallels betwen Yuna and Terra, but Final Fantasy has been recycling those character types since VI (and to a lesser extent, IV) anyways. Aeris is like Terra too.

And he's quite quotable too. Unlike Sephiroth who is pretty much the stereotypical anime badass and has legions of fans simply because he looks cool. I don't take the "some development is better than none" position either considering how muddled and confusing Seph's development is. The guy is practically a phantom throughout the whole game.

That's why they're called opinions, I suppose. I hardly think games like FFVII and FFIX have bad casts. I think FFVII's characters are likeable enough and FFIX's have good development even though I despise their SD designs. FFX though... I really don't care for that cast at all. Rather than taking the time to develop the characters and create real reasons for them to join Yuna's pilgrimage, most of them just tag along early. And those that do develop later on, like Wakka, do so in a rushed and unconvincing manner.

http://mysite.verizon.net/respxabq/ethergeist/id25.html

Just read that to find out why I think FFVI has a better cast than the rest. It's written by a fellow I know and a good read regardless.

<_< Bah, yeah right buddy (RPG's getting worse, I'd say that's a barrel of laughs). RPG's aren't getting worse every 5 years. It's not the companies fault. They just want to try something new and original.

For me, it's such RPGs like FFX & FFIX that made me interested in playing more RPGs.

Top 10 eh??
 

That is a tough question to answer, to narrow it down to a list of 10.

Lets see on the Snes we have Super Mario RPG FFVI and FFIV and EarthBound, moveing on to the Playstation there is FFVII, Xenogears, Lunar 2: Eternal Blue and Star Ocean, than on the PS2 there is KH 1 and 2. Hmm really hard to make the ultimate list of top RPG's, I would have to say though that some of the best ones of all time came out on the Snes. You have the ones I listed as well as Treasure Hunter G, Live A Live, FFV, Lufia 1 and 2, and Tales of Phantasia. It's really a shame that I've only recently been able to play all of these games.

rant

I agree that FFX really is the weakest one in the series, one of my main probles with it (beside those stupid puzzles) is that the game very easy until you hit some boss, which utterly devastates your party, and because they took out the level up system, it becomes hard to judge if your character's can kill the boss or not.

The FF series in general and many Square games of recently have the annoying tendency to make you fight the same boss over and over again, of have bosses with multiple forms, so you end up killing the first three forms only to be killed but the final. It makes me feel as if I they stole a little bit of my life that I can never get back.

/rant

I had to say 1990-1994. While I do have RPGs that I LOVE that fall outside of that realm such as Persona 1/2, Nocturne, and Digital Devil Saga, I do feel that the majority of my love came from the simple yet attractive graphics and sound that came from the SNES era of RPGs. Breath of Fire 1/2 are definitely up there on my list.

I also think that as technology began to play more of a role in the production of a product, less attention was given to that which makes an RPG truly engaging: the gameplay and the plot. Or maybe Im just getting older and Im experiencing "been There - Done That Syndrome."

1. Final Fantasy VI
2. Earthbound
3. Final Fantasy VII
4. Valkyrie Profile
5. Star Ocean
6. Tales of Phantasia
7. Xenogears
8. Final Fantasy Tactics

Can't think of a final two... With that said I have to say the 90s-2000 or so produced some of my favorites. So I'm gonna go with 1995-1999 just because I will die saying Final Fantasy VI was so freakin' awesome.

Hmm, this is an interesting thread.

1. Final Fantasy 6
2. Secret of Mana
3. Final Fantasy 4
4. Dragon Warrior 3
5. Chrono Trigger
6. Earthbound
7. Wild ARMs
8. Breath of Fire 2
9. Final Fantasy Tactics
10. Lufia 2

I voted up for 1990-1994. Though it does just barely disinclude FF6, I still have to vote for this. The SNES era of RPGs was the best to me. It had so much to offer, from Orge Battle to Secret of Evermore. Plenty to be had during this time period.

I agree with you. FF6 had things in proper proportions, in both characters and emotional/reality issues. Hence it being first on my list.

FF7, which I thought was good, had more angst than I had previously seen in the series. I have a hard time saying it was just good or okay nowadays because then I get the usual fanboy berating my opinion with "FF7 IS LEIK SO AWESOME!" Sadly, its built up as the monolith of the RPG genre amongst the majority I've talked to.

As for Final Fantasy 12, this'll actually be the first time I don't buy a Final Fantasy at release. I didn't bother with X-2 or FF11, so I'll leave this one to rental. It better be a far step up from X.

EDIT : Oh, as for Kefka. If you'd like to get a little bit more of a backstory to him, go to the Cafe in Vector. I just started a new quest, and didn't know about this. One of the guys in there tells you that Kefka apparently was Cid's first experimental Magitek Knight, but because the process wasn't yet perfected, Kefka's mind snapped. Just in case no one ever talked to him.

SNES and PSX rpgs are the best ever, I'm not really interested playing nowadays rpgs, they are just lack of good storyline. some are exceptional, but mostly are boring. I vote for rpg in 1995-1999, but it doesnt mean I hate today rpgs though.

my list
1. Saga Frontier
2. Final Fantasy Tactics
3. Tactics Ogre
4. Chrono Trigger
5. Chrono Cross
6. Parasite Eve
7. Mother 2/Earthbound
8. Dragon Quest Monster
9. Rockman EXE
10. Fire Emblem

Arright I've been subscribed to this thread, but never actually posted in it. Guess it's about time I did.

Here's the thing about my list -- it doesn't indicate a particular "era" of RPGs. Hence, I'm not voting for one. These are the RPGs that have left a lasting enough of an impression for me to recall them, and in no particular order:

Legend of Legaia: I absolutely loved this game -- every minute of it. The story might be a little simplistic, but it's fantastic. The battle system is great -- it combines combination-style attacks (indicated by left arm, right arm, a down attack or an up attack) with a turn-based system, and it's a lot of fun to simply watch the combos. The characters are likeable enough, with Vahn being pretty likeable, Noa being extremely cute and bubbly, and Gala being the brick wall. Also, it's one of the few RPGs where every piece of armor has its own image, and changes your character's image accordingly, including on the battlefield -- weapons, helmets, chest pieces, boots, whatever.

Chrono Trigger: Yes, Chrono Trigger. Must've played through the game a dozen or more times. What more could I say beyond what everyone else has already said over the past decade this game's been out? It's got a great storyline, great character, great artwork, cool attacks, a great soundtrack, etc. etc.

Megaman Legends series: It's debatable whether or not you'd call this an RPG, but I will. It's more of an adventure/RPG hybrid, but it's still there. The easiest thing to compare would be something akin to an offline MMORPG. You have quests, you go fetch items, you get the better item, and you go dungeon crawling. But it's MEGAMAN. Creating new weapons is always a blast, and it's really just fun to get his skate-thingies and just spin a long town. I uh...used to chase cars. >__>; Beyond that, the voices are good, the graphics were, at the time, slightly above par, and it was really just a lot of fun.

Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: So why not mention Link to the Past, or include the disclaimer "series" as a suffix? Simple -- I enjoyed Ocarina of Time that much more than the rest of the series, but before and after. I enjoyed it for many of the same reasons I enjoyed MML, save for one crucial fact -- instead of repeatedly chasing cars on roller skates, I took to seeing how fast I could clear the Gerudo place. >___>;; In any case, I had a lot of fun mainly just piddling around with the game. God knows how many times I made poor Link dive off that damn waterfall in the Zera caves.

Grandia II: Fuckin' awesome. Battle system+++. This game had by far the best battle system of the Grandia series in my book. It was simple and effective, and not a circle. I. Hate. The. Goddamn. circle action bars in Xtreme and III. The bar is just easier to read in my book. Anywho, the voices were decent (heard worse), but the story was all-out. Religious zelots? Check. Damsel in distress becomes fighting champion? Check. Loner lead warms up to friends and conquers all through the power of love? Semi-check. Psycho-bitch with wings? Triple check. The characters were by far the best thing about this game, as all of them were fantastically written out. Mareg, IMO, was the weakest as far as character development (he seemed a little TOO focused on finding Melfice) goes, but the remaining characters all fulfilled their roles fantastically. The award goes to both Tio and Millenia -- Tio was just plain awesome, and Millenia was...well come on, it's Millenia. If I didn't give her an award, she'd probably eat me. o__o;

Dark Cloud 2: Oh yeah. I hadn't forgotten about this one. Not a chance in hizzell. Dark Cloud 2 remains, to this day, my favorite PS2 game ever. None, and I mean none of the characters are shallow pieces of crap. Max has a huge plot twist in his story, as does Monica. The voices are fantastic (Max = Teen Titans' Robin) and all of the supporting characters are great. Dungeon crawling has been fixed to be a little more gamer-friendly, as they're not nearly as long as the first game's, but there are at least two crucial elements to what makes this game so fantastic: the Georama system and the Invention system.

The Georama system is what you use to rebuild cities that have, for reasons contained within the plot, been wiped out. Rebuilding these cities is an absolute BLAST. So much fun. You have total creative control, albeit you do have a guideline should you actually wish to complete the city to 100% completion. 'Tis not necessary, as only certain requirements need be fulfilled to continue on. However, there's one place, Veniccio, that requires very minimal to not only complete it, but to get 100% completion as well, and it leaves you a broad portion of the map to play with. Needless to say I spent many, many hours just seeing what I could do with this space. I made it look really really cool. ^___^

Then there's the Invention system, which is split in to two parts. First, you must take pictures of the "ideas for inventions." That is to say that you may need to take a picture of a chimney to get an idea for a part you'll need to create a weapon for your Ridepod. Once you have the necessary images (three are needed per invention), you can come up with a plan to invent and a list of raw materials you'll need to invent. And that's at least a 50 hour portion of gameplay, provided you want to collect every picture and create every invention, which you will.

There're also the minigames in Dark Cloud 2. Spheda is a golf-based minigame which sounds boring and stupid, but it actually makes the dungeon crawling a little more fun, as Spheda opens up as an option to you with every level you complete. At the end, when you've beaten it, you're given the option to play Spheda. Winning gets you an item, losing gets you nothing but lost time. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's quite challenging, and it's always very rewarding and fun to play. There're also fishing contests that come in two varieties -- a weighing contest and a race. The weighing contests are simple enough (and there are at least a dozen different venues to fish at, all of which have unique fish), and the race is a bit more in-depth. You'll build an aquarium to store your fish, and you can feed it different items to boost its stamina, speed, and even change its gender! It's a lot of fun breeding a fast fish to race!

Hmm...on to other RPGs now. The studio who created the (in my mind) legendary Dark Cloud 2, Level-5, was given complete control in bringing a hugely popular Japanese RPG from 2D into 3D, and they did a magnificent job. The game they completed most recently?

Dragon Quest VIII: And fail they did not. DQ8 is a wonderfully visual game, sporting vivid cel-shaded graphics for the land and the characters. Draw distances stretch for what could be conceived as miles. The characters are also really likeable -- the nameless hero's a pretty good guy overall, Yangus is...well, he's hilarious. And popular, as the bandit scored his own spin-off game, starring him as a child. Jessica's got the VA-VA-VOOOM to work with and she's actually very cool, with a really great voice actress. And Angelo's a typical ladies' man, but he's a got a past deeper than some would suspect. This game is extremely well-made, sporting interactive environments beyond any other RPG I've ever come across. Minor things too, such as actually reaching in the bag to retrieve an item, or pulling a book from a shelf and flipping through pages while reading. Really, America, you should pull your head out of your ass and give this game the respect it deserves, you FF-loving pieces of shit. Of course, I'm about to contradict myself...

Final Fantasy VII: Yeah whatever. Get over it, because I really enjoyed this game. Not gonna say much on it though.

Final Fantasy X: If I rated RPGs based on their mini-games, this would tie with Dark Cloud 2 -- maybe get 2nd place, actually. I spent over 100 hours play Blitzball. Beyond that though, I really enjoyed this game's story (Even the laughing part. I admit, it was pretty stupid, but I did crack a grin the first time I saw it.) and the characters weren't half-bad either. The only one that ever truly got on my nerves was the ever-brooding Lulu, but she wasn't all that bad. Although, looking back on it, I probably thought of this game more as a side-story to Blitzball than anything else, heh. I wish Squeenix would release Blitzball online...I'd totally pwn at that. >>;

Legend of Dragoon: Gonna take it back in time now. I really, really wish S-E would either re-release the game (Hey, VP did it on the PSP! Now do it again with LoD! Bastards!) or remake it and give it a sequel *cough*VP2*cough*. Legend of Dragoon deserves so much better than what it's garnered so far. The battles were really cool, and I liked the timed attacks as well. Plus, hello Dragoon Transformations? Those were awesome, and the attacks were really cool as well. The story was also really enthralling if not a little convoluted at times, and the characters were all pretty cool, though not necessarily likeable. Dart, Rose, and Albert were pretty cool, but the rest I was kinda iffy toward. Nonetheless, I enjoyed the hell outta this game and I'd like to see it get some sort of current-gen or next-gen rememberence.

Valkyrie Profile: So. Yeah. VP. Gonna play the sequel here soon, just played the re-release on the PSP and sadly got the B ending -- must've screwed up somewhere. Anyway, it's fantastic. The best things about it are the characters and the story. Tragedy, betrayal, [i]shocking revelations[/i, perversion a la Lezard, etc. This is a very intelligent game (no dimwits allowed, lawlz). Moreover, it's a tragic one. It was released probably way before its time when it first debuted on the PSone, but I think now was the perfect time to put it out in the sun once again. The new CG scenes rock, by the way. There's really nothing I don't like about the game -- it's just that damn good. Extremely addictive gameplay, great battle systems that change basically with every character you change in the party, semi-nonlinear direction as far as where you want to go in each chapter, and it's just really fun.

Xenosaga series: This'll be my last one for now, as I'm starting to get tired. My friend brought his copy of the first game over to my dorm room when it first came out and let me check it out. Played through, I guess, the first couple hours of the game and went out to Wal-Mart that night to buy my own copy. The first game is absolutely stellar -- the voices, the music, the characters, the story and the battle system are all really well done....

...which is why the second one was such a big letdown for me. So much so that I've never actually completed it, nor do I plan to now that I know all the info I need can be found in Xenosaga III's in-game database. Xenosaga II was graphically superior, as were the character designs, I admit. However, I care not for the new voice actors they included, nor do I have any respect for the clusterfuck of a battle system they included. Granted, these are just the rantings of a gamer, but Xenosaga II really irked me. Those retarded side-quests, the fact that there is no money to buy anything with (what. the. fuck.) and the sheer lack of polish on the game has officially made it nothing but shelf-space for me.

However, I have enough respect for the Xenosaga series that I will buy III, especially after I found out what changes they were making. Xenosaga I will likely remain my favorite of the three though.

1. Icewind Dale
2. Dues Ex
3. Baldur's Gate II
4. Diablo
5. Fallout
6. Planescape: Torment
7. Final Fantasy IX
8. Chrono Cross
9. Grandia II
10. Vampire: The Masquerade

Generally what I enjoy most in RPG's is good character design and overall atmosphere, back when I played IWD for example the music and the graphics blew me away and totally sucked me into the game from the word go. Other games such as Grandia II and Final Fantasy IX had cool and interesting characters which kept you playing to find out more about them. Some of the others such as Dues Ex, Diablo & Fallout all were really fun games that you could play again and again due to their less linear structure.

While my more favourite games are from the 95-99' bracket I don't believe RPG's are getting worse at all, just the sad fact of the matter is the producers are out to make money at the end of the day and the traditional RPG as we know it isn't exactly the money maker it once was; not at all compared to your run of the mill MMO released today. Even the MMO's seen as many as failures due to low subscription rates will end up making much more money then your run of the mill RPG.

On a sidenote I've been an active gamer since around 88', so yeah I haven’t missed many of the titles mentioned; either I just can't remember them right now or they didn't appeal to me at the time I played them.