lincoln, a great man?

Because he was able to save the union, Lincoln is considered by many as one the best presidents ever. He is also seen as a humane person for his freeing the slaves...

But after reading SIX BIG LIES ABOUT ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SLAVES AND THE WAR, I have my doubts.

His being a humane person can be dispelled quickly. His main goal was to keep the union at all cost. One of turtledove's book (where the South wins the civil war) showed it clearly.

Is Lincoln among the greatest or the worst presidents?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Great people aren't always good people, in fact that's mostly been the case historically.

Lincoln is one of our greatest presidents but he wasn't exactly a saint. That still doesn't mean he wasn't pretty awesome compared to his contemporaries and met a challenge that would cause most to burn out.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I really don't know why anyone would expect Lincoln to be a saint. You don't reach the office of the presidency by compromising and being nice to everyone. The whole "omg lincoln was a human being with faults" meme is just the product of an over-exaggerated hostile reaction to modern Republicans, which have about as much in common with the party of Lincoln's day as a poodle has in common with a fire axe. To call Lincoln the "worst president ever" betrays an absurd ignorance of the dire straits both nations would have rapidly found themselves in had the secession been permanent.

Please, don't use Harry Turtledove as a meaningful reference work. It makes me to cry.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Dudes, the Confederacy totally would've abolished slavery because Robert E. Lee hated it. Seriously.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

My high school US history teacher referenced Turtledove on more than one occasion. Such is the quality of our public education system.

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That website linked above makes Liberterians look bad. I mean - can you really take that crap about Lincoln seriously if its the same "webzine" that runs "The film WALL-E blatantly conveys environmentalist, anti-capitalist, anti-technological propaganda. But I will concentrate on a much more egregious error made by its creators—an error made in ignorance of basic economics and of commonsense insights regarding the nature of human behaviors."

To quote a great show before our time - "Veeeeeery in-ter-es-tink - but STOOPID"

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Please, don't use Harry Turtledove as a meaningful reference work. It makes me to cry.

I'M not from the US, so my history books barely talk about your ivil War.

I don't imply he's a scholarly source - although the knows about history - but he did show lincoln's motive.

FELIPE NO

A lot of libertarians like to rag on Lincoln because they think it makes them seem interesting, but more often than not you get the honest-to-God Confederate apologists like Von Mises Institute contributors.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Janus X

I'M not from the US, so my history books barely talk about your ivil War.

I don't imply he's a scholarly source - although the knows about history - but he did show lincoln's motive.

So wait.

You admit to knowing nothing about our Civil War - yet you think he knows something about history? What do you base your opinion on? You have no credible sources and nothing in which to bounce off this guy's rambling. So its safe to say you're simply ignorant and this guy has something shiny and angry to sell you on the cheap.

The fact that he can say something you don't know does not make him intelligent. I can tell you tons of things about the American Civil War - my father is obsessed with that time period - but telling you such things doesn't mean I'm a scholar on the subject. I would suggest that I'd be a much bigger shoo-in for the title of scholar than this guy ever will be, and that should say a lot.

Long and short - this guy is an idiot and you're a bigger one for listening to him. And you can take that to the bank, buckko.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

One thing stood out that summed up the article, OPINION. While it is true Lincoln did not care about freeing slaves and ever offered the southern states the right to keep slaves if they joined the union. I like the Jab at the republican party as if we have the same type of people in that party today.


As a way to conscript more soldiers Lincoln created whole regiments of black only battle groups. They were segregated by law Just as the Irish battle groups were. Lincoln used this to his advantage and while I agree he did not care to end slavery, doing so helped him win the war. Every great person has their faults and those faults can be found just about any where be they true or false. The guy who wrote this seems to want to bash Republicans in general when he sites their tax and spend and warmongering ways. What he fails to mention is democrat presidents who brought us into many wars or the shady history of the democrat part with regards to race relations.

The Democratic Party’s Legacy of Racism by Mackubin T. Owens See how easy that is, we can provide a link to an article written by someone who wants to trash democrats.

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Democrats were the racist party, though. The Dixiecrat schism occurred because Southern whites felt the party was getting away from them.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Democrats were the racist party, though.

The irony was lost on every American that the democrats backed a *black* nominee.

How ya doing, buddy?

The irony is Under a republican Africa has recieved more AIDS help from the US than under any other president. Also black home ownership is up to levels never seen before under a republican president.

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I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Tiqulone

The irony is Under a republican Africa has recieved more AIDS help from the US than under any other president. Also black home ownership is up to levels never seen before under a republican president.

You... obviously don't understand the word "irony" if you're following our posts.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Do you have a reference for your AIDS assistance claim? Even if true, it doesn't prove much. A condom costs a quarter, an "abstinence education" costs significantly more but that doesn't make it more effective.

Also, bragging about "home ownership" in the middle of a loan crisis is a little disingenuous. How many of these people will actually get to keep their homes?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Do you have a reference for your AIDS assistance claim? Even if true, it doesn't prove much. A condom costs a quarter, an "abstinence education" costs significantly more but that doesn't make it more effective.

Also, bragging about "home ownership" in the middle of a loan crisis is a little disingenuous. How many of these people will actually get to keep their homes?

I never said i was bragging, you are reading too far into the point I tried to make. Also correct about the home crisis , regardless black home ownership has increased.


There is several links that show US aid to Africa for aids victims,research and other needs.
Digg - Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa
There is also counter claims by groups saying that Bush has not done a thing to help. Condoms don't do much for the person if they are already infected and not educated enough to know how condoms can help.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

So hey, I'm wondering what George Bush not actually doing much to help black people has to do with this thread.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Tiqulone

There is also counter claims by groups saying that Bush has not done a thing to help.

As opposed to all the aide we've given them in the past - which has culminated to them needing more of it, and where upon we stop assissting. Then its easy for them to piss and moan and say LOOK WHAT HAPPENS - but they're just looking for help instead of helping themselves.

Originally Posted by Tiqulone

Condoms don't do much for the person if they are already infected and not educated enough to know how condoms can help.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LeHah

Long and short - this guy is an idiot and you're a bigger one for listening to him. And you can take that to the bank, buckko.

Have you seen any of his other threads?

Originally Posted by Pang

Also, bragging about "home ownership" in the middle of a loan crisis is a little disingenuous. How many of these people will actually get to keep their homes?

Oprah Winfrey = only in America... and it's all Honest Abe's fault.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

So hey, I'm wondering what George Bush not actually doing much to help black people has to do with this thread.

Well, a Republican found the thread

So, inevitably

The thread was hijacked into discussion of why we should love the President

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YOU DON'T CHANGE HORSES IN MIDSTREAM, PANGALIN MURPHY.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

So hey, I'm wondering what George Bush not actually doing much to help black people has to do with this thread.

Quote from the article: Another factor that motivated war was the Republican Party’s lust (which, with few and brief exceptions, it has retained to the present day) to tax and spend.

His piece was nothing more than a hit smear piece on Lincoln mixed with some half truths and history. Why people like him continue to hold yesterdays way of life up with today's standards is beyond me.

I pointed out how the same thing could be done to democrats. Than some how aids got mixed in..

Lehah I aggree with you, Africa should not get any aid for aids. Matter in fact the highly preventable disease Aids should not even be on the forefront. More children die from cancer each year than aids and cancer is not preventable like aids.

On topic: Lincoln was a great leader who played a pivatable part in shaping our US history. Unknown motivations be they dark or light still lead us down the path of equality we are at today. Why judge him and in judging him like his are we no better than the Ku Klux Klan groups that write hit pieces of MLK or Malcom X?

Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by LeHah

So wait.

You admit to knowing nothing about our Civil War - yet you think he knows something about history? What do you base your opinion on? You have no credible sources and nothing in which to bounce off this guy's rambling. So its safe to say you're simply ignorant and this guy has something shiny and angry to sell you on the cheap.

The fact that he can say something you don't know does not make him intelligent. I can tell you tons of things about the American Civil War - my father is obsessed with that time period - but telling you such things doesn't mean I'm a scholar on the subject. I would suggest that I'd be a much bigger shoo-in for the title of scholar than this guy ever will be, and that should say a lot.

Long and short - this guy is an idiot and you're a bigger one for listening to him. And you can take that to the bank, buckko.

A few things not covered in high school level history is freed blacks were allowed to own slaves and did so in great numbers. The main problem is people either unable to fit parts of history in their new age political correct world or want to leave out what they can't explain.


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Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Well, a Republican found the thread

So, inevitably

The thread was hijacked into discussion of why we should love the President

So if I said a Lincoln hating jew with a hook nose point downward found this thread so lets talk about how famous US leaders suck you would welcome me and not make assumptions. Republicrats and demicans all of them.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Tiqulone

A few things not covered in high school level history is freed blacks were allowed to own slaves and did so in great numbers. The main problem is people either unable to fit parts of history in their new age political correct world or want to leave out what they can't explain.

You're really dumb, you know that?

A long while back, I got into a pissing match with a friend over the then-new War In Iraq. She was beating her chest, demanding restitutions to the civilians in the area who had limbs blown off, who had builings burned down - and was screaming that the press was in the pocket of the government. That we weren't seeing the war as it was! That we were being fed *lies* and *disinformation* by mass media! That children and cats and dogs and hampsters were having limbs blown off in firefights!

She stopped talking to me when I pointed out that the only way she could know that there was disinformation about war injuries - was because she was seeing war injuries on CNN, in the first place.

This is exactly the same thing. You piss and moan about people being fed lies and garbage and under-education - yet here you are saying these things, meaning... people must know about these things! Stop trying to be clever, those of us who use THE MIGHTY POWER OF CRITICAL THINKING have gone beyond your apparent capacity to understand the matter at hand.

Originally Posted by Meth

Have you seen any of his other threads?

Yeah, the guy ain't exactly bright. Or talented. Or worthy of holding my used toilet paper.

But once in a while you NEED these people in a community. They're so dull, all you do is throw a little water on them and then use them to sharpen your arguement knife. I dont know about you but it keeps me sharp, on the edge.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LeHah

You're really dumb, you know that?

A long while back, I got into a pissing match with a friend over the then-new War In Iraq. She was beating her chest, demanding restitutions to the civilians in the area who had limbs blown off, who had builings burned down - and was screaming that the press was in the pocket of the government. That we weren't seeing the war as it was! That we were being fed *lies* and *disinformation* by mass media! That children and cats and dogs and hampsters were having limbs blown off in firefights!

She stopped talking to me when I pointed out that the only way she could know that there was disinformation about war injuries - was because she was seeing war injuries on CNN, in the first place.

This is exactly the same thing. You piss and moan about people being fed lies and garbage and under-education - yet here you are saying these things, meaning... people must know about these things! Stop trying to be clever, those of us who use THE MIGHTY POWER OF CRITICAL THINKING have gone beyond your apparent capacity to understand the matter at hand.



Yeah, the guy ain't exactly bright. Or talented. Or worthy of holding my used toilet paper.

But once in a while you NEED these people in a community. They're so dull, all you do is throw a little water on them and then use them to sharpen your arguement knife. I dont know about you but it keeps me sharp, on the edge.

I'm not trying to smear or bash someone by pointing out obscure facts. So no, it's not the same thing and calling me dumb only serves to inflate your ego. It's quite easy to grab any part of history and either judge them by today's standards or use them to prop up an arguement as to why this or that should be or not be. People buy into it because they lack the whole history. They lack the whole history because schools choose to teach only what they consider to be important in the limmited time frame they have for each class.

If that friend you have, had looked up more sources other than CNN she would have seen progress made in Iraq, beheadings along with the ups and downs of the US and several other countries going over there.

She choose one source thus recieved a slighted message. Students today recieve just a few sources and recieve the same sligted insight of history. Any one could do a research paper on Lincoln and use the OP source as their only source and be just as skewed.


going to the statement that I bitch and moan about being fed garbage and lies under education, thats not what I said. I'm sure every quote Lincoln made was spot on. What I object to is when people judge history by today's standards. When we judge ones actions of yesterday by how we think today's. The education system of today can not possibly fit in every aspect of history in the 50 or so minutes they get for each class. Thats understandable however if one is going to bash a part of history they could at least use more than the small ammount they were taught in high school.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Tiqulone

What I object to is when people judge history by today's standards.

Leave and never come back. Its for your own safety. You'll be eaten alive on this board with this kinda of nonsense.

Jam it back in, in the dark.