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Male Reproductive Rights
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Minion
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 02:47 PM #51 of 178
I'm talking about a women who just doesn't want to have a child. Forget about the pregnancy part. A woman has full rights to terminate a pregnancy just because she feels like it. There could be no danger at all. This is justified by pro-choicers because supposedly it's better for a child not to live at all then to grow up unwanted. But it's perfectly okay for a child to grow up unwanted by the father? The answer, as most of you have said, is no. Therefore, the woman's right to terminate a pregnancy because the baby is unwanted is bullshit. It should only happen in extreme circumstances, like when the woman's life is in danger.

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Old Mar 10, 2006, 03:56 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 03:56 PM #52 of 178
That's not what's being said at all. Terminating a pregnancy because a child is unwanted is only a part of a myriad of reasons why a woman would elect to have an abortion, and it is because those reasons are impossible to determine that abortions must be legal.

If a father does not want a child, then sucks for the kid, but his mother did want him, thus making the child wanted by at least somebody. If you then turn the argument back around to the father wanting the child, and the mother not, then your philosophical point falls flat on its face due to the technical terms of an abortion, i.e., the woman carries the child.

If you try to argue for Men's Reproductive Rights, you won't get anywhere, because no matter how you look at it, men don't get pregnant, and the term of an abortion is that it is the termination of a pregnancy.

Call it Baby Killing if you want, but under no circumstances should a male have any legal say over whether or not a pregnancy is brought to term, nor should he have to default out of supporting said child. Life sucks, accept your responsibilities as a man and suck it up.

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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:13 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 03:13 PM #53 of 178
I do agree that men need to take responsibilty for there actions and SO DO WOMEN. If you CHOOSE to have sex then you have taken the risk of having a child. That is the purpose of sex. But a man should have every right that a woman has in the matter of abortion. It may be her body that has to carry it, but it is still half his child. If she does not want the child then he should be able to raise it. It is selfish on either parties part if they want to abort so that it will be more convient for there lives.

As far as Canadian Law is concerned, I do not live in Canada and think that it is a shame that they have no respect for the life of there unborn. The unborn should be fought with all that we have. They have no voice. They cannot speak up for themselves. Do you think that they want to die. Who knows what human you are killing. That baby could grow up to be writer, teacher, scientist, etc.

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:18 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 04:18 PM #54 of 178
So, it's selfish for people to elect an abortion out of convenience, but a man forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term for his own sense of satisfaction isn't?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:25 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 03:25 PM #55 of 178
No it is not selfish. He is living up to his responsibilities and taking care of the thing that he helped to create. I see nothing selfish in his request.

As far as the nine months thing. Maybe that will give her sometime to think about the next time she is going to have sex. Maybe the thought "Hey this can happen to me again, I better wait untill I am with someone I want to have a baby with, or I am ready to have one on my own"

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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:31 PM #56 of 178
That's sensible, but people will blow off responsibility whenever they can and we happen to live in a society that makes it legal for them to do so.

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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:39 PM #57 of 178
It happens Devo. And it shouldn't. That's all I'm saying. It's not a black OR a white issue. There should be rules and restrictions. We could easily justify anything using this same kind of reasoning, but we have laws for a reason.

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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:42 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 04:42 PM #58 of 178
Quote:
No it is not selfish. He is living up to his responsibilities and taking care of the thing that he helped to create. I see nothing selfish in his request.
So, forcing a woman to go through the pains of a pregnancy to satisfy one's own ego, is not selfish? There is no action one could take that wouldn't be considered selfish. Even assuming that one does elect to have a child that they didn't want, that just means that they're accepting responsibilities in order to satisfy their sense of duty, and thus their ego.

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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:44 PM #59 of 178
Originally Posted by Devo
I like how it's assumed those who have abortions are just trying to escape responsibility.
Isn't that like the only reason people have abortions?

I mean, there are so many responsibilities included for having a child than just taking care of it once it's outside of you.

This is not to say that those who have abortions are irresponsible, of course.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:49 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 03:49 PM #60 of 178
I dont know how you can say that someone wanting to except responsibilities for there actions is selfish, nay i say it is admirable and should be lifted up for praise. Would you have wanted your mom to have an abortion when you were in her body? Wouldn't you want someone fighting for you on the outside? Look at it personally and see if you were in that babies place would you like to be told that your life should not exist because someone doesn't want to take responsibilities for there actions. Most were taught that you should take responsibilities for there actions, yet when it is most critical we cop out and hit that easy switch.

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Niekon
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 05:11 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 03:11 PM #61 of 178
Originally Posted by Gohan1983
No it is not selfish. He is living up to his responsibilities and taking care of the thing that he helped to create. I see nothing selfish in his request.

As far as the nine months thing. Maybe that will give her sometime to think about the next time she is going to have sex. Maybe the thought "Hey this can happen to me again, I better wait untill I am with someone I want to have a baby with, or I am ready to have one on my own"
Okay... taking your statement here and doing a bit of a flip on it.
Suppose for instance that at the time the couple discover that the woman is pregant and the guy decides he wants to take responsibility for it at that time, but somewhere down the road a few months from now he has had time to think it over... weighed his options... and now does not want to take responsibility for it. What then? At that point in time there is a chance that the pregancy cannot be terminated and the woman who has been forced to carry this fetus to term is left holding the bag.
What is to prevent the man from flip-flopping on his initial decision to do "the right thing" and decide to not take responsibility? Can he just walk away without any sort of ties to something that he initially wanted and now wants to be no part of?

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Lord Jaroh
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 06:22 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 06:22 PM #62 of 178
Originally Posted by Devo
But that's not why I'm pro-choice. I'm pro-choice because a lot of you pro-lifers like to assume that people are educated about sex and morals. You're living in this ideal world where everyone has an informative and loving upbringing and should know right from wrong, know when to be responsible. I live in a reality where not everybody has my upbringing, knowledge or willingness to acquire knowledge.
Actually, I find that everyone does know about sex and the consequences; they simply choose to ignore them for the pleasure of the moment. I myself do not agree with the "easy switch" from life's problems. Certainly, there are exceptions (rape victims, etc.), but for the majority, if you get pregnant, then you should carry it to term.

Nowadays society is all about the easy way out, shirking responisbilities, and shifting blame. Maybe people should actually take responsibilities for their choices for a change, and it might make this society better. Maybe the woman/man shouldn't have had sex to begin with, and with the easy way out of abortion, there's no consequences for having screwed up. People learn from experience.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 06:30 PM #63 of 178
Originally Posted by Lord Jaroh
Actually, I find that everyone does know about sex and the consequences;
As if you know everyone.

My girlfriend's 15-year-old sister (who is sexually active) didn't know that precum contained sperm. I doubt she's the only sexually active person who's ignorant of this fact, too. You can't ignore facts you don't know.

That may not mean she's still not at fault if she gets pregnant, but there are intricacies involved that not everyone knows.

I think the world needs more abortions, personally.

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Lord Jaroh
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 06:35 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 06:35 PM #64 of 178
Okay, maybe everyone that I know knows the consequences. I took classes in school when I was 12-13 called Sexual Awareness. It teaches you all about that sort of thing, how the body changes through puberty, what sex is, how to protect yourself, etc. Now if kids would actually listen instead of ignoring facts that are blatently given to them...

If she got pregnant because she is stupid enough to have sex when she's 15, then I would say "tough luck, time to grow up and act like an adult, since apparently she wants to have sex like one"

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Niekon
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 06:46 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 04:46 PM #65 of 178
Originally Posted by Lord Jaroh
Okay, maybe everyone that I know knows the consequences. I took classes in school when I was 12-13 called Sexual Awareness. It teaches you all about that sort of thing, how the body changes through puberty, what sex is, how to protect yourself, etc. Now if kids would actually listen instead of ignoring facts that are blatently given to them...
How many teenagers actually paid attention in those classes? They spent most of the time giggling and laughing and whatnot...
Ohhh... a vagina... ewww... a penis...

Jam it back in, in the dark.
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 06:47 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 06:47 PM #66 of 178
Originally Posted by Niekon
How many teenagers actually paid attention in those classes? They spent most of the time giggling and laughing and whatnot...
Ohhh... a vagina... ewww... a penis...
And who's fault is that?

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Bradylama
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 07:08 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 07:08 PM #67 of 178
Invasion of the Canuck Mysogynist.

I love how all the pro-lifers in this thread react to an abortion as if it were like filling out a prescription. Since when does an invasive surgery that could potentially make you a social outcast become the easy way out?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 09:58 PM #68 of 178
Something that has the potential to ruin someone's life is less severe than something that is guaranteed to, yes.

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Bradylama
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 10:06 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 10:06 PM #69 of 178
Having a child is never "guaranteed" to ruin somebody's life. If it was, then we've reached a pretty pessimistic view of parenthood and child rearing.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Minion
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 10:07 PM #70 of 178
In some sense, it will. Your life will change drastically. As such, your life, as it was before the child, is ruined. You can look at this in a positive way, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Bradylama
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 10:29 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 10:29 PM #71 of 178
Precisely. There's absolutely no positive outlook when it gets out that you had an abortion in Moonshine, Mississippi.

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Sarag
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 10:37 PM #72 of 178
Originally Posted by Gohan1983
But a man should have every right that a woman has in the matter of abortion.
So once again, you advocate forcing a woman against her will into having an abortion in the name of 'fairness'?

Double Post:
Originally Posted by CloudNine
Why should a woman be able to force a man into a situation that he does not want to partake in, but a man cannot do the same in the opposite situation? Sure, the man doesn't have to suffer the pain of carrying a baby, but he does have to carry the financial burden for the rest of his life.

Why should the woman be able to control everything and force something from a mistake that she herself helped create? Not that I would just leave a woman in this situation, but why shouldn't the law fair to all parties involved when the mistake was not the fault of a single party?
It's incredibly unfortunate that some men have fatherhood thrust apon them. You are right, it isn't fair that she has "all" the say on whether a child is born or not.

However, the alternative - allowing men to force abortions or pregnancies on unwilling mothers - is absolutely reprehensible.* And once the child is born, neither parent is allowed to abandon it without support. I mean, the very suggestion is vile and disgusting, but there's no theoretical reason for it either.

Look, this is one of those laws where vindication has no place. For all the bleating the sixteen year olds keep up about what's fair, and all the abortion talk the pro-lifers keep putting in, I havne't heard one goddamned reason why we should legalize men abandoning their children. And that's what these guys are basically arguing for.

Additionally, it's really silly how some of you keep saying WELL THEY SHOULD JUST NOT HAVE SEX THEN. That argument is always funny. Who exactly are you trying to convince here?

* Outlawing abortion seems like a very quick and easy solution for those among us who have a child's view of morality. Limiting rights doesn't mean the same as equal rights, you obnoxious dicks.


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Last edited by Sarag; Mar 10, 2006 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Automerged double post.
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 11:06 PM #73 of 178
It's not arguing abstinence, lurker. It's arguing not fucking someone who may want kids and you may not or vise versa ;_;

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Old Mar 10, 2006, 11:09 PM #74 of 178
Okay, but you weren't the only one calling for abstinence.

RETRACTED FOR YOU.

There are of course situations where one or the other changes his or her mind when the pregnancy scare is upon them, as well as liars, but NEVERMIND THAT.


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Old Mar 10, 2006, 11:21 PM Local time: Mar 10, 2006, 10:21 PM #75 of 178
First everyone does know where babies come from and if you engage in sex there is the possibility that a child will be created. Its not anything difficult to understand. If you pull out, there is still a chance. If you use a condom there is still a chance.

Second I never said that a man should have the right to FORCE a woman to have an abortion, he should have a say in the matter. It is his child too!!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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