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On the written treaty of alliance I have no clue. History has been definitive on the matter though. Quiet support for most, if not all of Israel's actions ranging from the wars against it's Arab neighbors to the Palestine question has come out of Washington.
I was speaking idiomatically. |
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
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That has 'national security' written all over it for both the United States and Israel. FELIPE NO |
Finally, whatever Israel could offer in us terms of an armed military camp probably isn't very valuable to us anyways. If we need airpower in the reigon we could just put a carrier in the Mediterranean sea or the gulf. This is in addition to the various military bases we have in Europe and Diego Garcia. And all of the above are out of reach of Palestinian rockets and suicide bombers. The only value I see in having a base in Israel is merely to field a heavily armed quick reaction force.
What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Last edited by Yggdrasil; Apr 21, 2006 at 08:01 PM.
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Weapons systems do need live targets for effective testing, yes. Combat conditions are much more important than testing.
Jam it back in, in the dark. |
As far as the UN goes, Israel isn't the only country to do some very unpopular stuff in the United Nations. Bottom line, is that we're both there for each other. We look out for each other's interests no questions asked.
Oh, and if we were satisfied with the amount of military bases we had in the Middle East we wouldn't have grudgingly withdrew from the bases we had in Saudi Arabia. Or depending on how you look at it, we wouldn't be building "temporary" bases in Iraq that look quite permanent to some people.
"What? We're selling high tech weapons to China!? No we're not! We gave them to Israel..." You might not like it, and I might not like it. We're not required too. It's just politics. There's nowhere I can't reach. |
This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
Radical Dreamer |
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Last edited by Radical Dreamer; Apr 22, 2006 at 05:33 AM.
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As for the trouble we get from supporting Israel, I figure the powers that be think it's a fair trade for what we receive in return. I don't subscribe to the notion that Israel uses the United States as some pawn they're in complete control of.
Saudi Arabia is an autocratic monarchy, an extremely unstable one. Yet they're a important ally to the US. Good thing we have troops in Iraq plus bases in Israel so we could support the royal family if they were overthrown in a Islamic fundamentalist revolution eh? See, Iraq isn't just about oil after all. Turkey, well that depends on you what you think would happen if Iraq broke up and one of it's successor states happened to be Kurdistan. Given the fact they (the Turks) have been relatively swift in putting down their own Kurdish minority, I wouldn't be surprised if this prevoked some invasion. Regardless Iraq is under our care as some form of a protectorate. So bases to "keep the peace" seem ideal. Why waste a carrier group? Iraq, uhh does anything really need to be said here on the benefits of the Israeli alliance when it involves Iraq?
I was speaking idiomatically. |
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the whole US is Israel's pawn nonsense either, I'm merely doubting the whole notion of how we support each other equally (or somewhat equally).
Most amazing jew boots |
Maybe what/how I said it came off a little wrong. Is it really that surprising that we share important strategic information with our closest allies? Couple years back, there was a spat in the news about how American intelligence shared some very complete and accurate satallite intelligence with Britain during the Falklands War. I would rate that more important then just some irrelevant domestic intelligence wouldn't you? Especially if it wasn't on a pro-quo basis.
You could always ask one our esteemed elected representives what benefits they see in continuing our current relationship with Israel. Probably would get better information then from me... probably. heh.
It's not just "presence" I'm talking about. It's the projection (intimidation?) of American power throughout of the region. Yes, a carrier group in the Persian Gulf would do that job quite well. But from where I'm sittin' that job appears to be done. FELIPE NO |
I'm back, so time to address some comments.
So no, Saudi Arabia, while a monarchy, is in fact a very stable and secure country. The Iraq invasion also has no bearing on supporting the royal family, if you learned more about how the country functions, you'd find out that in fact Iraq harms the royal families stability so much more than it helps. The US has two military systems in the country (USMTM and OPM-SANG) to ensure the countries stability, and in any event of a real crisis, the US 5th Fleet and its troops are all in Bahrain, as is an air wing in Qatar.
What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? |
Jam it back in, in the dark. |
I would like to know where you're getting your numbers though. Outside of Al Jazeera (sp?) I don't think they have a lot of independent media in the region. So anything else is state owned. Forgive me for being a little skeptical, but we are talking about an autocratic monarchy.
I'm slightly torn on the issue of the domestic spying issue. On one hand there's the fact that organizations like INTERPOL and other countries more then likely don't respect our rights to our citizens and "guests" privacy. (There's another example. The FBI/CIA and INTERPOL routinely share domestic intelligence. Why wouldn't they?) Only the rights are guaranteed to our citizens though. How is the NSA anyone going to know which phone calls have actual citizens on the line? If they're just sweeping up and filtering everybody's international calls that'd be impossible. This is such a messy issue and more then the "THIS IS TO CATCH TERRORISTS!" or "BUSH IS SUCH A DICTATOR! POLICE STATE AMERICA HERE WE COME!" arguments. But this is totally off topic here.
There's nowhere I can't reach. |
As for independent media, its a funny issue. In one regard, there are a decent number of media stations in the Arab world that are private, and Al Jazeera is not one of them. However, most private media stations are owned by Saudi investors, meaning that while independent, they aren't very critical of the country. Al Jazeera, as a state owned group by the Qatari government, has the feeling of being independent, although in actuality, it is under the whims of a government.
His family disowned him as well, and for good reason. They're one of the wealthiest families in the world, and have strong ties to the royal family and many US corporations. Lastly, the US deployments are pretty low key. They are primarily for training loyal national guardsmen to ensure the stability of the royal family. As I said, its a contentious issue and so they don't want to give any ammo to their critics.
In the Arab world also, its not overly atrocious. You have all the groups, but as well, many realize what the US has done for these nations. The Gulf would never be what it is today without huge US help, and Iranians on the streets are generally friendly to US views. In general, people don't hate the US. They just hate the Bush administration. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
How ya doing, buddy? |
Radical Dreamer |
Is this really a serious debate or just propaganda? In my eyes your credibility dropped down to zero. I was speaking idiomatically. |
As far as my credibility goes, I never thought it was higher then zero. I am not going to change the way anybody thinks here. I have no influence or power in that regard. However I can provide an alternative prespective to consider or outright reject. What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
Radical Dreamer |
It also makes this thread and debate useless because everyone can make up whatever they want. So I want to make a stand as well and annouce that the CIA has discovered that Iran plans to attack the US once they get their hands on nuclear weapons. Moreover, it appears that Iran is in tight contact with the known terrorist Bin Laden. Like it's not enough, except the usual US flag burnning ritual, last week, a group of American reporters were captures by Iranians in Iran and were burned to death by the massive crowds.
Double Post:
It also makes this thread and debate useless because everyone can make up whatever they want. So I want to make a stand as well and annouce that the CIA has reported that Iran is planning to lanuch a nuclear attack against the US this summer. Apprently, Iran cooperates with Bin Laden which can be seen in Bin Laden's latest tape.
FELIPE NO
Last edited by Radical Dreamer; Apr 23, 2006 at 05:16 PM.
Reason: Automerged additional post.
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What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? |
Ahh well. 'Least I wasn't called a anti-semite. Jam it back in, in the dark. |
There's nowhere I can't reach. |
Most amazing jew boots |
Shadow of Time |
The U.S. actually DOING something about Iran??...unless they're stupid enough to send one of those nukes flying our way, I don't really think so.
Kim Jong Il: Hans Brix? Oh no! Oh, herro. Great to see you again, Hans! Hans Blix: Mr. Il, I was supposed to be allowed to inspect your palace today, but your guards won't let me enter certain areas. Kim Jong Il: Hans, Hans, Hans! We've been frew this a dozen times. I don't have any weapons of mass destwuction, OK Hans? Hans Blix: Then let me look around, so I can ease the UN's collective mind. I'm sorry, but the UN must be firm with you. Let me in, or else. Kim Jong Il: Or else what? Hans Blix: Or else we will be very angry with you... and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are. I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
Also, what do you suggest be done since letter writting obviously is the punchline in your joke? I was speaking idiomatically.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
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