"Find Jesus"

A recent suggestion sparked this thread. (I'm in no way upset by the advice, by the way.)

Whenever a particularly religious person suggests their faith to another, many times the advice is "Find Jesus", or "Become saved by Jesus".

I'm probably opening up a can of worms here, but I gotta ask: Why Jesus?

Jesus is fine, but nearly every Christian faith maintains that it was God who created the heavens and earth, and that it was God who sent forth Jesus.

So why is the importance placed upon Jesus? Why not God, who is assumed to be the highest power imaginable? If you want to split hairs, most Christian churches believe that Jesus and God are, essentially, one and the same. So praying to Jesus is, vis-a-vis, praying to God.

It seems to me that this is placing Jesus before God, which seems backward, a "cart before the horse" deal.


I'm not looking for umpteen quotes from Scriptures as an answer to this. Nor am I willing to tolerate self-righteousness for long. All I want is a layman's explanation as to why many churches have seemingly replaced the concept of God, as a source of salvation, with Jesus.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

It could be as simple as Jesus being a lot nicer. Tell someone to find God and they might concentrate on the old testament, where they'll discover God is a right cunt.

Jesus repackaged the message into one easier to swallow. That's the one Christians seem to want you to discover. Unless they're Westboro.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Jesus-God-Holy Spirit = classic tripartite Godhead concept. Yes, all three are God, but they represent different things.

God is all. The Holy Spirit is God as Creator (ie: moving over the waters to create Heaven/Earth). Jesus is God as Human, and represents the first time God came and directly contacted his creation; until this point, God made his will known by speaking to humans or sending angelic messangers. Jesus is the one who saves, not God directly. This article is kind of helpful.

And Jesus is, after all, what separates Christianity from the other religions that claim the same God (ie: Muslims and Jews). Of course Christianity is going to tell you to find Jesus. I'm a Christian myself, but usually I'm happy if people who are unbelievers come to accept the God concept in general.

Now, there is *one* misplaced emphasis that sparks controversy amongst Christian groups: the importance placed on Mary by Catholics, just because she's the mother of Jesus. Not being Catholic, I can't really give any answer to that. All I know is, Protestants don't really mention her much unless it's about Christmastime, whereas Catholics pray to her often.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Could be that Jesus is man, and was kind of sent as... Well, a "mediator." It is a lot easier to wrap our minds around the concept of a fellow human than an all-powerful, cosmic God. Maybe?

Edit: I've been thinking about it some more, and... Well, according to the Bible, believing in Jesus as the Savior is the requirement for getting into heaven. I've never heard of anyone believing in Jesus but not "God"; plenty of people, however, believe in God and not Jesus.

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Jesus is meant to serve as a medium through which one can reach god, He was supposedly someone who walked around the people and learn about there lives, while God basically doesn't directly intervene with human life. I guess it's just a way of keeping some hierarchy =/.

I was speaking idiomatically.

The short answer is that the direct route to God requires you to follow the complete Mosiac Laws. Failure to follow said laws requires some sort of atonement (e.g. sacrifice). The idea behind Jesus is that he takes care of the atonement for you. You said you don't want scripture, but there's a parable that explains the concept pretty well. It involves a "just king" who finds out that his son has broken his laws. Being the just king that he is, he sticks to enforcing the law; yet, being the loving father that he is, he pays for the crime in his son's stead.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Alright, let's just admit it.

Jesus was a pretty rad dude compared to his "father." He was all about love and forgiveness, brotherhood and all that great hippie liberal shit.

But that Old Testament God? I mean, who the hell would want to ask him for anything? He seems more like a cranky old man who is frustrated with his kids for being a bunch of mentally-stunted assholes.

Jesus on the other hand; woo boy. The guy wasn't hostile at all! I mean, hell. He hung out with whores~ He would totally forgive you if you sinned.

FELIPE NO

The answer lies in the religion's name, really. Christ-ianity. The ones that follow the teachings of Christ, as opposed to the ones that follow the old Hebrew way or the one taught by Mahomet.

Same God, different visions, and a very different one on the Christian side, which is actually closer to things like Taoism than to the other 2.

Religions and their history are very complex things. It's too bad everyone thinks they're entitled to generalize on the few they think they know, nowadays.

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There are two very common mistakes with regards to religion. Some people follow a religion without ever questioning or digging deeper, and as such completely miss the point of the religion they follow. Other people see this and are led to believe that the religion is just as backward and illogical as the folks who blindly follow it. That's why I ditched Catholicism a long time ago, and why I still refuse to identify with any specific religion.

I can understand telling people to look up Jesus. I mean, he really knew his shit, and he put some awesome ideas into the world. If he was here in corporeal form now, I know we'd be smokin' herb all over the place. BUT he isn't God, he just points the way. Thus, I really can't understand praying to him. There's a Zen saying that goes, "It is like a finger pointed at the moon. Do not look at the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory." The finger in that analogy represents the teachings themselves, but I think it fits here too.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Phoenix X

I can understand telling people to look up Jesus. I mean, he really knew his shit, and he put some awesome ideas into the world.

If he wasn't God, then he was a madman and a blasphemer, no better than Jim Jones. Why would you understand looking up to someone like that?


And Crash, Minion was correct.

You find Jesus and not God directly because we are sinners and therefore not good enough to go to God directly. When you are "saved" means you have accepted Jesus' sacrifice, which you make you pure enough to go to God.

To put it simply, Its like taking a shower before you are allowed to jump in the pool.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Did Jesus shoot poison down little children's throats before he was about to be caught?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Didn't you ever read the parable about Jesus turning water into Kool-Aid?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

The Christian god says he is the only god, period. But Jesus is cool 'cause he and god are pretty much the same person, somehow, even though they talk to each other as if they were separate entities. There's also the Holy Ghost, but he doesn't say much and nobody really knows who he is or what he does. Oh, and don't forget about the Virgin Mary.

Monotheistic my ass.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Why do people insist on lumping the Virgin Mary in with God/Jesus/Holy Ghost? Even Catholics don't worship her as a deity, they just think she's helpful to pray for help to.

How ya doing, buddy?

Because it's sexist to exclude her while praying to a God, a man, and one of the undead.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Cat9

And Crash, Minion was correct.

You find Jesus and not God directly because we are sinners and therefore not good enough to go to God directly. When you are "saved" means you have accepted Jesus' sacrifice, which you make you pure enough to go to God.

No, I find this pretense to be both deceptive and absurd.

As far as I've been able to figure out, if Jesus existed, then he existed only to provide tangible context for God's already existing benevolence. It was only so that we'd believe what was already true.

It is said in the Bible (and no, I can't cite the book, paragraph and line, but it's there.) that all men (and women) were created equal in the eyes of the Lord. Hence, a sinner is just as beloved as someone who is sin-free; God sees no distinction between the two and the idea that anyone is unworthy is preposterous. Created in God and of God, right? To deny us is for God to deny himself.

Further, it also states that all sin is forgiven, even before reconciliation is ever sought. By this definition, all sin is absolved in the moment because God loves everyone equally. It is only ourselves who must come to terms with the harm we've cast upon others. It's then that we approach God for the forgiveness that was already and always ours.

Anyone can approach God. That's what prayer is. Heck, that's what going for a walk and appreciating the outdoors is. You can pray to Jesus if you wish, but there's never been any backlash dealt to anyone who chose to circumvent Christ and seek God directly. Having to use Jesus, or a priest, or anything as a conduit to reach God is unnecessary. Prayer isn't louder or more effective if done in a church or while clutching a rosary.

Jesus was likely a fine individual, but I suspect that most of his message has been malappropriated toward controlling the masses instead of enlightening them. This is perhaps a significant reason as to why I find the suggestion of "Find Jesus" to be a bit of misdirection.

Regarding Mary, I was raised Catholic. I know for certain that she is revered not as a deity but as a very significant Saint. Catholicism encourages prayer to Saints, as they're considered pure and just, and are to be trusted. I never bought into the idea that each Saint had autonomous dominion over a particular aspect of life, however. Rafael is the patron saint of artists, but in a pinch, Saint Agnes or Saint Christopher would be just as reliable.

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Originally Posted by Crash Landon

It is said in the Bible that all men (and women) were created equal in the eyes of the Lord. Hence, a sinner is just as beloved as someone who is sin-free; God sees no distinction between the two and the idea that anyone is unworthy is preposterous. Created in God and of God, right? To deny us is for God to deny himself.

It says in the Bible many times that God hates sin, and nobody that is a sinner will be accepted into Heaven, to be in the full presence of God. He does see a distinction, and that is everyone is a sinner, and falls short of the purity of God.

Quote:

Further, it also states that all sin is forgiven, even before reconciliation is ever sought. By this definition, all sin is absolved in the moment because God loves everyone equally.

In the Old Testament, God required animal sacrifices to show obedience and ask forgiveness for one's sins. The New Testament changes that by asserting that Jesus was sent by God to be the ultimate sacrifice, so that nobody need do any of the things from the OT that were required of believers. Since Jesus was sacrificed, one must accept that sacrifice (ie: know Jesus) in order to show devotion to God. The origin of 'finding Jesus' is one thing I can quote:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6. By doing this one also acknowledges one's innate sin -- after which you receive forgiveness for said sins. So in that respect, yes, God did absolve all people of sin.

However, the problem is, a lot of 'modern [protestant] Christians' take this idea and run with it, as if simply "finding Jesus" allows them to behave just like the rest of world, without really following the teachings of Jesus or the Bible. So...hypocrites.

Quote:

Anyone can approach God. That's what prayer is...Having to use Jesus, or a priest, or anything as a conduit to reach God is unnecessary. Prayer isn't louder or more effective if done in a church or while clutching a rosary.

This is true. It has always been true, and always will be. Usually the prayer is invoked in Jesus' name, but this is more of a convention than a rule. After all, Jesus is the one who said to "Pray like this: Our Father, which art in Heaven..." He never said to pray to him/through him. This is where Buddhism and Christianity have a similarity: neither man asked to be proclaimed a Deity or start a religion when they were on earth. Man created that.

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Regarding Mary, I was raised Catholic. I know for certain that she is revered not as a deity but as a very significant Saint. Catholicism encourages prayer to Saints, as they're considered pure and just, and are to be trusted. I never bought into the idea that each Saint had autonomous dominion over a particular aspect of life, however. Rafael is the patron saint of artists, but in a pinch, Saint Agnes or Saint Christopher would be just as reliable.

Yes, I know that she isn't regarded as a deity. The everyday emphasis on her is just odd. Since Catholicism is such an ancient religion and absorbed so many different practices depending on where it was introduced, I've always accepted the whole "prayer to patron saints" thing to be a leftover of all the polytheistic religions Catholicism steamrolled over. Angelology as a religious idea is another example, praying to certain demigods rather than the to the Man himself.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Arkhangelsk

In the Old Testament, God required animal sacrifices to show obedience and ask forgiveness for one's sins. The New Testament changes that by asserting that Jesus was sent by God to be the ultimate sacrifice, so that nobody need do any of the things from the OT that were required of believers. Since Jesus was sacrificed, one must accept that sacrifice (ie: know Jesus) in order to show devotion to God. The origin of 'finding Jesus' is one thing I can quote:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6. By doing this one also acknowledges one's innate sin -- after which you receive forgiveness for said sins. So in that respect, yes, God did absolve all people of sin.

I'm sorry, but I kind of giggled at this.

"I am God, infallable and awesome with power! Just, uh. Wait a second, here. Forget about that sacrifice business. I am going to send some guy down there, and he's gonna die so you don't have to get blood all over Earth anymore, k? Awesome. Glad we're clear on that."

I mean, am I alone in seeing the lol in that? I don't mean to offend. I'm just sayin'. ;_;

Also, I would probably never follow a guy who said "you can't talk to my dad without talking to me first, buddy."

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Originally Posted by Archangelsk

Some stuff.

Yeah, that unstable dichotomy between the Old Testament God and the New Testament God is a lot of the reason I don't accept the Bible as a qualitative authority.

During the period that I attended church, I could never get into the whole "Yay Jesus!" swing. He's just a guy, a guy who never once demanded to be worshipped. All he ever did was thank his Creator for every miracle he performed. Even Jesus deferred to God.

Jesus was a man with a message. His message was received perhaps best, but is no more significant than those of other messengers throughout history. Compare the word of Jesus to the words of Mohandas Gandhi, Voltaire, Walt Whitman, Galileo, Mother Teresa, Stephen Hawking or John Lennon. I like to think that God selects messengers more often than we realize. Studying these folks' histories is far more informative than reading the Bible may ever be.

That's as best as I can figure, because it makes a lot more sense than worshipping a man who never wanted praise in the first place.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Did Jesus shoot poison down little children's throats before he was about to be caught?

No he didnt, but he did claim to be God as did Jim Jones. Thats bad enough.

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

He's just a guy, a guy who never once demanded to be worshipped.

I disagree that He was just a guy. He was God. At the least, you have to admit He claimed to be God. Therefore you would worship him.

John 8:58
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

My own beliefs aside, the reason the focus is on Jesus, is that he kind of revamped the way the Jews thought things. Thus you had the branch from Judaism - Christianity which believed the teachings of Christ (or God the Son), and the Jews, who stuck more with the teachings of God the Father, because they didn't believe he was the Son.

A lot of what I'm trying to say can be found in the Sermon on the Mount, in the Gospel of Matthew. Things like (paraphrased) "You have heard that it was said, "do not kill your neighber." But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother is in danger of the fires of hell."

I'm pretty sure that doesnt mean simple anger (I mean Jesus even got pissed off at people) but probably harboring hatred & grudges & death wishes. So he kind of made things more down on a heart & soul level than just a physical level.

I know that's not the only way he revamped thinking, but that was just an example.

But regardless, that's why Jesus has the focus more than God.

I kind of disagree with the idea of the Trinity anyway. I think it puts far too much an idea of polytheism in people's heads. If they really are one person, why the idea of the Trinity? Why is it needed? If God is all powerful, why is it so hard to imagine that some aspect of him (Christ) came down to die for everyone's sins? So I guess I agree with the idea of the Trinity in principle, but not in practice. It's treated too much like they are completely separate entities, and I think it's more like three different functions of God.

Hmm. Interesting subject, regardless.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I found Jesus. Wow, he doesn't get around as much as he's claimed to.

And Super Jesus is full of LOL.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Darklink2135

My own beliefs aside, the reason the focus is on Jesus, is that he kind of revamped the way the Jews thought things. Thus you had the branch from Judaism - Christianity which believed the teachings of Christ (or God the Son), and the Jews, who stuck more with the teachings of God the Father, because they didn't believe he was the Son.

Exactly.

And for Crash and Sass, I'm simply answering the question. I don't really care if you think it's silly/idiotic/hypocritical/whatever. It's the answer to Crash's question, sans personal input. Have either of you read The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov? It's probably something you would appreciate, Crash, given your initial question and this comment:

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

During the period that I attended church, I could never get into the whole "Yay Jesus!" swing. He's just a guy, a guy who never once demanded to be worshipped. All he ever did was thank his Creator for every miracle he performed. Even Jesus deferred to God.

And one of the best books in Russian and world literature, to boot.


I still attend church, but I have also never been a "holy roller" or that sort. Actually, I often thought that Catholicism suited me more, since it's more ritualized and not so...off-the-wall...as a lot of Protestant churches (including most of the ones I was raised in). This is not to say I'm not religious, but there's a quote from a novel I read a few years ago that said, "Some men prefer to keep God close to their heart." I tend to agree with that.

FELIPE NO

Well, I'm a lifelong theological conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran who's interned at the Faith-Based Initiative office, studies religion and politics at a tough college, and am currently working at Focus On The Family (yeah, I know), so I'll try to offer a few brief, different views.

evangelism (for some)/marketing (sadly, for most): As has been said, Jesus is more palatable and has been portrayed more often "visually" to the average theological child than Jehovah or the Holy Spirit.

history: The short answer is that while the entire Trinity was stressed by early Church heads (especially to counter, ironically, the Jesus-only folk), those fricking western Europeans ruined it all when using political manuevering to preserve their state versions of Christianity.

politics: It's really easy to exclude the "intolerant" teachings of Jesus. It isn't for Jehovah and the Holy Spirit. When people of all political and religious stripes have to evaluate a program, some of Jesus' stuff is the easiest to sterilize for them.

theological: Jesus' years on Earth are the fulcrum on which the Old and New Covenants, the most important concepts that we can understand now in the Bible, rest.

practical: Since some churches measure success by congregation size/offerings and net baptisms, they take a bare-bones version of absolution to bring in new and old members each week. Justice and sanctification are left by the wayside.

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So, it's said that Jesus' sacrifice changed the rules for getting into Heaven. So instead of all that Mosaic law, now all you have to do is supposedly realize the act which was committed, understand its purpose, and repent all of your sins based upon it.

I believe people tell you to "find Jesus", but really mean "repent upon the covenant established by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ."

Is that simple enough?

Jam it back in, in the dark.