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The annual Seal Hunt
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Chibi Neko
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 04:45 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 06:15 PM #1 of 50
The annual Seal Hunt

Last night I watched Larry King Live about the annual seal hunt debate between the McCartneys and Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams. Me being a Newfoundlander and who’s family has been in the hunt for many generations… the McCartneys really insulted our province and surprised me on how uneducated they where on the topic, and they really seemed like intelligent people!

What first pissed me off is that society would rather listen to uneducated stars then a Newfoundland native who knows the facts! Not only that, but the McCartneys also justified the stereotype that stars are rude, because they always interrupted Danny whenever he was explaining all the facts (because they where denying the truth) and they where allowed to do it! However when the McCartneys said something wrong and Danny tried to correct them, Danny was told to back off.

The McCartneys need to shape up and stop denying that we hunt the seals with guns! Not clubs like it was done in the past! Seals are not endangered for there are more than 5 million swimming around! We use all parts of the seal, not just skin, and for the love of god… stop having your pictures taken with baby seals! We don’t even touch those and it was made illegal since 1987! If you are trying to make a statement, don’t sit around seals that aren’t even targets!

The seal hunt is a big income to families that live along the coast, I nearly screamed at the TV when the McCartneys said not a lot of money is earned by seal hunting…. Sure… 20 to 25,000 is not a lot of money to a millionaire, but it is to us!

The McCartneys are making assumptions on popular misinformation and refused to look at the facts and from a hunter’s perspective. It is insulting when someone who comes to Newfoundland for the first time and pass judgment on something they know nothing about!

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 04:52 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 03:52 PM #2 of 50
It's the usual celebrity photo opportunity. I lost my respect for Paul McCartney a long time ago. Seriously, animal rights activists seem a shallow bunch to me. And then there's the incredibly obvious argument against vegetarianism, that animals eat eachother. I don't under stand how a lion biting into a gazelle's neck is more humane than quickly killing an animal. We should be worrying more about cruelty to people than cruelty to animals.

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Chibi Neko
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 04:59 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 06:29 PM #3 of 50
I agree in that sense. My cousin became a vegetarian because of the way meat way meat is processed and how harmful to the environment it is, however there are organic meats that are grain-fed.

I new these stars where being used as soon as they came to the airport. They don't believe it, but then again, they don't believe in the facts either..

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Jerrica
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 05:12 PM #4 of 50
Ugh. Where to begin.

First, lay off the exclamation points! They are really annoying! And they make you look like a mental case! zomg!

Second, I agree that the McCartneys were unfortunately ill-informed about the specifics of the seal hunt. They are, as Williams said, being used by organizations like IFAW. However, to believe everything your government tells you is also unwise. I appreciate your outrage, but I think it may be misdirected.

The cute little baby seals that Paul and Heather were posing with (the white coats) will be killed in three weeks time. They won't have white coats anymore, but they weill be the same baby seals we saw on tv last night. They will be shot in the head, clubbed in the head, or ice-picked in the head. "90% killed by bullet" is not the same as "100% killed by bullet." What happens to the other 10%? I'm not sure. If we're talking 10% of a 200,000 seal quota, then that's 2000 animals killed in an uncpecified way, possibly by clubbing.

I don't like the seal hunt. I have never liked the seal hunt. I do not have very much respect for those who particiapte in it, and that is unlikely to change. On the other hand, I appreciate the necessity to cull the herd, for the sake of conservation. The population cannot be allowed to outgrow its food supply, or there will be many more seals dying a far more painful death.

What I'm trying to say is that the McCartneys were right, as was Williams. I don't believe the hunt can be completely abolished, but I do think it should be more highly regulated, monitored closely while it occurs by DFO and independant organizations.

I'd like to caution you, Neko, not to immediately take up arms in support of the 'hunters.' Honestly, the seal hunt isn't much of a hunt at all. It's not very hard to kill slow-moving juvenile seals on an ice floe. This is not hunting, but a massacre. It may be a necessary massacre, but it is not a hunt. Second, Newfoundland is changing. It is better for you to embrace this now, than to hold on to things that simply aren't there anymore. If you're expecting to make much of a living off the sea in Newfoundland, you are sadly mistaken. The province is no longer what it once was. Get an education, get a trade, get a job off the water. There is no future in this anymore. Newfoundlanders lived off the water, now they live off the government while they try to adapt to the loss of the Northern Cod. Personally, I don't see the appeal of risking life and limb anyway. Previous generations of Newfies did it because they had to; you don't have to, and if I were you, I'd be thankful for that.

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 05:14 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 06:14 PM #5 of 50
They just enjoy the sensationalism.
Also they love the attention of being considered "caring, loving, sensitive people;" they love people to love them in that way. It is more than likely a sad attempt at trying to alleviate their guilt for past misdeeds.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Jerrica
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 05:16 PM #6 of 50
Yeah, Fyodor, it'd be really great if you could, you know, ever actually PROVE anything you say.

Work on that.

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Watts
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 05:28 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 03:28 PM #7 of 50
I don't see any problem with clubbing a few baby seals. Especially if you make a profit off it. Seriously, if you just kill the adult seals the babies and youngin's die anyway right? So why not club/shoot the babies. Just make sure there's no cameras around this time eh?

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Jerrica
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 05:39 PM #8 of 50
Well, I suppose that's why you're a disgusting sack of excrement.

I choose to believe that most Newfoundlanders, and indeed most people, are not so. Perhaps I'm wrong. Still, it's nice to think that the majority of people are not willing to sacrifice their soul for a few dollars. See, I'm of the opinion that money doesn't justify slaughter. I see that you're American, though, so we clearly have different values.

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 05:41 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 05:41 PM #9 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
Well, I suppose that's why you're a disgusting sack of excrement.
Any particular reason you're coming out of nowhere making statements like this?

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 05:51 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 05:51 PM #10 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
I see that you're American, though, so we clearly have different values.
And I suppose you have the same values as Newfies? Just because you think its deplorable to kill cute animals doesn't make the willingness of others to do so wrong. I suppose if one did it out of sadism, that would be wrong, but as necessity or convenience, there's no real reason not to.

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 06:00 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 07:00 PM #11 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
Yeah, Fyodor, it'd be really great if you could, you know, ever actually PROVE anything you say.

Work on that.
Ok, it is clear that you are unfamiliar with even basic psychology. I wouldn't think that it would be necessary to have to cite sources for such a basic principle. That last sentence I said however is pure speculation.
Are you at all familiar with people who will do "righteous" or "altruistic" acts, but broadcast them, so that people will love them for this?

Here is an article which I found which touches a bit on the image maintenance of celebrities.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/artic...01-000031.html

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 06:17 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 04:17 PM #12 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
Well, I suppose that's why you're a disgusting sack of excrement.
Probably.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
I choose to believe that most Newfoundlanders, and indeed most people, are not so. Perhaps I'm wrong. Still, it's nice to think that the majority of people are not willing to sacrifice their soul for a few dollars. See, I'm of the opinion that money doesn't justify slaughter. I see that you're American, though, so we clearly have different values.
It's not the money that's the motivation for this, it's population control. But if you can make some money while doing what needs to be done what's the problem? Would you rather it all just go to waste and let the corpses rot?

The baby seal fur market probably isn't what used to be anyway. Most people frown on that. Just not me.

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Chibi Neko
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 07:43 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 09:13 PM #13 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
The cute little baby seals that Paul and Heather were posing with (the white coats) will be killed in three weeks time. They won't have white coats anymore, but they weill be the same baby seals we saw on tv last night.
True, however they are not the cute cuddle little white-coats when they are killed, and Paul and Heather are using the message that they will be killed as white coats. That is the tactic that they are using, cuddling up next to fluffy-big-eyed baby seals, and people will say: 'Awwww.... how can they kill those little things...' when in fact they are grown up and not as cute and cuddly when they are killed.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
They will be shot in the head, clubbed in the head, or ice-picked in the head. "90% killed by bullet" is not the same as "100% killed by bullet." What happens to the other 10%? I'm not sure. If we're talking 10% of a 200,000 seal quota, then that's 2000 animals killed in an uncpecified way, possibly by clubbing.
I am pretty sure that other game are not killed by shooting either, the most attention are brought to seals becasue the are cute when they are babies and used to be killed in the past for their fur. They are no longer killed and the baby seal fur industry is just about dead.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
I'd like to caution you, Neko, not to immediately take up arms in support of the 'hunters.' Honestly, the seal hunt isn't much of a hunt at all. It's not very hard to kill slow-moving juvenile seals on an ice floe. This is not hunting, but a massacre. It may be a necessary massacre, but it is not a hunt. Second, Newfoundland is changing. It is better for you to embrace this now, than to hold on to things that simply aren't there anymore.
What the McCartneys say about making a tourism industry makes sense, but it wont cull the over-populated species. I support the hunters that are hunting the seals the correct and humane way, I totally disagree with the clubbing. I would not call it a massacre because the seals we kill are used for food, fur, and their oil, the same as we hunt moose for their meat, but wait! No one is protesting the moose hunt because they are not adorable. Newfoundland sells a lot of seal-oil capsules and are often given to open heart surgery patients, my grand-father takes them.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
Second, Newfoundland is changing. It is better for you to embrace this now, than to hold on to things that simply aren't there anymore.
Yes Newfoundland is changing, but the need to control the population and make money has not. The money made from the hunt is quite a lot, enough to feed your family for quite a while.

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knkwzrd
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 08:55 PM Local time: Mar 4, 2006, 07:55 PM #14 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
I'd like to caution you, Neko, not to immediately take up arms in support of the 'hunters.' Honestly, the seal hunt isn't much of a hunt at all. It's not very hard to kill slow-moving juvenile seals on an ice floe. This is not hunting, but a massacre. It may be a necessary massacre, but it is not a hunt.
Hunting doesn't always imply a Ted Nugent imitation. They're killing wild animals for business, and they're not setting traps, therefore they're hunting. How many insects have you killed in your life? Were they humane deaths? I'd call that a massacre. Life is life, regardless of how cute it is.

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 11:27 PM Local time: Mar 5, 2006, 01:57 AM #15 of 50
Seeing McCartney on CNN being such a sanctimonious prick made me want to make this thread. Nice to see someone else did.

A friend of mine made a very, very good post about the seal hunt on another message board. I'll have to quote it later, since he phrased everything much better than I can. For now, I can tell you that the general sentiment here in Newfoundland is "insulted" right about now. It probably says something when the reaction of a province of 500,000 people to a visit from Paul McCartney is pretty much just a collective eye-roll at his "ZOMG TEH CUTE WIDDLE BABY SEALS!!!" crap. Cuteness is a pretty sorry criteria to judge which animals you get indignant about people killing and which you don't.

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Old Mar 5, 2006, 02:18 PM #16 of 50
Just wondering: are those people demonstrating to protect animals or jsut want to show how cute baby seals are?

What about pigs and cows in slaughter houses?

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Chibi Neko
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Old Mar 5, 2006, 03:11 PM Local time: Mar 5, 2006, 04:41 PM #17 of 50
Originally Posted by Phoque le PQ
Just wondering: are those people demonstrating to protect animals or jsut want to show how cute baby seals are?

What about pigs and cows in slaughter houses?
That is exactly what Danny William was accusing them of on Larry King Live, but the McCartneys down-right denied it and kept interrupting him saying 'you are going off topic' when in fact he wasn't.

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Old Mar 5, 2006, 06:31 PM #18 of 50
Originally Posted by Bradylama
And I suppose you have the same values as Newfies?
Yes, I think I do, on account of me actually BEING a Newfie. Born and raised. And like I said, I don't disagree with culling the population. What worries me is the way it happens. Ideally, I'd like to see every sealing vessel accompanied by DFO and independant representatives.

And no, Neko, they will not be killing white coats, and neither Paul nor Heather claimed they would be. It is illegal to kill white coats. It is not illegal to kill them in three weeks time, when they are still babies, but no longer white. The main motivation for waiting three weeks seems to be the desire to deprive people like the McCartneys of a "legitimate" photo op. Also, they will not be fully grown in three weeks time. It takes much longer than that for a seal to mature into an adult. For all intents and purposes, they will still be juvenile, on the cusp of infancy. Just old enough to be grey instead of white.

Like I said before, I support the culling of the seal population, if and when it is done in a proper, humane manner, and if it is necessary (which, at this point in time, it is; it was not always so, however ie: mid-sixties, seventies). I do not believe that it is monitored closely enough. Neko, show me someone out in the woods clubbing a moose to death, and maybe then that arguement will have merit. I appreciate conservation issues; what I don't like is the Newfoundland attitude of "How dare these goddamn celebrities tell us what to do?" As a culture, Newfoundlanders have a tendancy to be a tad defensive and, dare I say, a little STUCK IN THEIR WAYS. Have an open mind, listen to what others have to say, and don't automatically assume that the way we've always done it is the way it should always be done. Should we abolish the hunt? Maybe not. But perhaps it's time to start looking into alternative ways to exploit the seal population for our own gain. At the end of the day that is, after all, what it's all about.

Amanda mentioned that the majority of Newfoundlanders were insulted by the McCartneys. I wasn't, nor were quit a few people I know. We are a minority, however, who are afraid to speak out. If you're a Newfie, you damn well better LOVE seal slaughter, or you're in a hell of a lot of trouble. Danny Williams was, in some respects, mis-representing the people of the province by claiming that he was speaking for everyone. He certainly wasn't speaking for me; I'd love to find an alternative to sealing, if the government was willing to look. No one in Canada is going to touch this issue, because the uproar and outrage from Newfoundland will be immediate and violent. The cod are gone, FPI might as well give in to the final death throes, and half the population of the province has moved to Alberta. Take away sealing, and this place will errupt. I wish, I really, really do, that Newfoundland could get away from its past. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it was great while it lasted, but now it's over. Move on. Why is it so hard for this province to do? Neko? Amanda? Explain please, because I don't get it. Natural resources? So what. Build some infrastructure that doesn't center around fish or molluscs. There are businesses slowly cropping up, but its taking an awfully long time. I know an IT company is no fish plant, but come on. Maybe when the older population retires, those young workers remaining in the province can make something here that doesn't require a boat. Meanwhile, I'll sit in a call centre with my Bachelors degree and wait until its my turn to go to Fort MacMurray.

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Old Mar 5, 2006, 09:45 PM Local time: Mar 6, 2006, 12:15 AM #19 of 50
That's a whole issue all by itself, Jerrica. I'm kinda swamped with work tonight (damn you, honours thesis!), but I'll see if I can throw out a few random points for you.

No, you don't have to love seal killing to be a Newfoundlander. But this issue is so rarely about seals, for either side of the debate. For people like the McCartneys, it's about gettig photo ops with cute animals that are killed out in the wild, which they somehow think deserves their indignation more than the treatment of animals raised in 4x4 pens in slaughterhouses on a steady diet of growth hormones.

For Newfoundlanders, it's about a lot of things. Yes, some people make a healthy chunk of their annual income from it. Yes, there's the tradition aspect of it. Yes, it's taking a long time for alternative industries to crop up here, for whatever reason you want to blame it on. But I think it goes deeper than that. I think a lot of people are just damn fucking TIRED of being demeaned, stepped on, and controlled by mainlanders and outsiders, no matter what the issue.

Think about China for a second. When the communists first took power, Mao Zedong made a speech that contained the line "China has stood up." And that's a big part of the reason they don't like being told what to do by uppity western powers today, even on issues like human rights. It's the same "How DARE those foreigners tell us what to do?!" attitude. After being controlled for centuries by a Manchurian dynasty, then by a dozen different foreign powers who snapped up chunks of their country and treated them like crap for a hundred years, then going through a few decades with a corrupt Guomindong pseudo-government not doing a damn thing as Japan invaded... After all that, they finally get a government who, from their point of view, makes sure China is going to stand up for itself on the world stage.

Now think about Newfoundland. It seems like we have some of that persecution complex going on ourselves, but we haven't ever truly "stood up". Between fish merchants, the French and English tugging us back and forth, then back under British control, then Canada... There seems to be a real sense that mainlanders and foreigners have never done jack fucking squat for us. Is that irrational? Maybe. But it makes a lot of Newfoundlanders fiercely, fiercely resistant to people from away waltzing in and trying to tell us what to do when it comes to something a lot of people see (rightly or wrongly) as a part of our culture. It doesn't help matters when groups like PETA and people like Paul McCartney lie, manipulate, and hypocratise their way into making us look like an entire province of bloodthirsty monsters, and so many people just eat it up without looking at any side of the issue beyond "BABY SEALS ARE CUTE AND NEWFIES ARE MONSTERS FOR KILLING THEM".

As much as I hate to agree with anything ol' Danny says, he did make at least one good point on that CNN debate: no one's going to fight for the rights and futures of poor Newfoundlanders with the same tenacity that they fight to protect a bunch of baby seals. People will throw money at the IFAW and PETA to save a few doe-eyed, no-longer-clubbed whitecoats who make them go "Awwww! How can those horrible Newfies club something that cute?". They don't give a shit about poor kids in an outport whose families will lose a third of their yearly income. They don't give a shit about how hard people have to fight just to be able to make a living here doing ANYTHING. They don't give a shit about all the people who are forced to move away and wander to Alberta looking for work. Bottom line, people care more about holier-than-thou celebrities cuddling seals than about any of the people living in Newfoundland. So is it really surprising that so many people here DO have a "How dare these goddamn celebrities tell us what to do?" attitude about the issue?

Whether that attitude is justified or not is another matter. But personally, I don't find it the least bit surprising that so many people here would think that way.

(Wow, that went on a lot longer and more rambly than I thought it would.)

EDIT: Fixed a typo, added a tiny bit of clarification on a line that was kinda vague.

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Last edited by Amanda; Mar 6, 2006 at 01:32 AM.
Chibi Neko
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Old Mar 5, 2006, 11:04 PM Local time: Mar 6, 2006, 12:34 AM #20 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
And no, Neko, they will not be killing white coats, and neither Paul nor Heather claimed they would be. It is illegal to kill white coats. It is not illegal to kill them in three weeks time, when they are still babies, but no longer white.
When the white coats become greys, it means that their fur is ready diving, so these young seals still have a fighting chance by swimming away.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
Neko, show me someone out in the woods clubbing a moose to death, and maybe then that arguement will have merit.
Sure. On CBC and NTV news some years back, a man dragged a moose to death with his truck, also a lot of moose are killed on the highway from transport trucks (I know that they where not hunting, but still, not all moose die in the collision and often bleed to death.)

Originally Posted by Jerrica
What I don't like is the Newfoundland attitude of "How dare these goddamn celebrities tell us what to do?" As a culture, Newfoundlanders have a tendancy to be a tad defensive and, dare I say, a little STUCK IN THEIR WAYS. Have an open mind, listen to what others have to say, and don't automatically assume that the way we've always done it is the way it should always be done.
It is just as Amanda said, alot of people are tiried of being demeaned, stepped on, and controlled by mainlanders and outsiders, especially when they make quick judgement on issues they know nothing about. Notice how some houses have the old Newfoundland flag flying on their patios and flag poles. Some people think things where better before we joined Canada, others do not.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
If you're a Newfie, you damn well better LOVE seal slaughter, or you're in a hell of a lot of trouble. Danny Williams was, in some respects, mis-representing the people of the province by claiming that he was speaking for everyone.
Not true, not all sealers hunt because they love it, they do it to feed their families. I am sure they would love to stop, but they can't afford to because where else are they going to get their money?

Originally Posted by Jerrica
The cod are gone, FPI might as well give in to the final death throes, and half the population of the province has moved to Alberta. Take away sealing, and this place will errupt. I wish, I really, really do, that Newfoundland could get away from its past. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it was great while it lasted, but now it's over. Move on. Why is it so hard for this province to do? Neko? Amanda? Explain please, because I don't get it.
Why is it so hard? That is easy! Fishing and hunting skills is much of what the older generation know how to do, they know nothing on business, advanced technology, nor do they have the time and money to do so now. Since I was six years old, I was taught to mend nets, gut fish, drive a boat, and set traps... things that my parents figured that I would need to know for my future, however when the cod stocks dried up, I was still young enough to have a option, so my father sold his fishermen's license...his right to fish... in order to have the money to send my brother and I to school, so that we can learn skills that they don't have the opportunity to have.

I think a lot of these traditional hunts will decrease dramatically because once the older generation dies of, there will only be us left, and we will most likely come up with a new industry for the province, something different from fishing and hunting... what it will be, who knows, but I do know that for the current generation of former fisher people, hunting and fishing is all they have.

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Old Mar 6, 2006, 01:14 AM #21 of 50
Ok, I'll respond to Neko's now, Amanda's tomorrow, as I want to go to sleep and answering Amanda is more complicated and requires more thought.

Their fur may be ready, Neko, but they are not. At the age they are killed, most seals will not have entered the water for the first time. They are hardly in a position to make a swim for it.

Somone dragged a moose to death, eh? And I bet everyone interviewed for that NTV segment said pretty much the same thing. "Well, you know, it's not pretty, and it's not nice, but it IS necessary. Dragging a moose to death is our right as Newfoundlanders." I'm willing to bet good money this was not the case. I'm willing to bet, actually, that the entire province was sickened by it, as were the SPCA, Humane Society, etc. Why? Because it's a sickening thing to do. We are at the top of the food chain, yes. That gives us dominance, but it also gives us responsibility. We are, if you'll pardon my Franciscan zeal, stewards of the earth. We choose the time of life and the time of death; in between, we have a duty (zomg Wee Free Men. Terry Pratchett being relevant). Also, many moose are indeed killed by cars. Not purposely, though. These moose tragedies also result in human tragedies. Therefore moose= direct harm to human beings, which means moose hunt every year. I can't remember the last time I heard of someone being killed in a seal-automobile collision. Your arguement Neko is, again, missing a critical factor: relevance. Several hundred men clubbing baby seals on a yearly basis for 500 years ON PURPOSE is not equal to accidental collisions, or one nut job tying a bull to his bumper.

I never suggested sealers hunt because they love it. Not many people with a soul could love it (here I go with religiosity again. Maybe the term I was looking for was "morals). You took me too literally. I meant that, as a Newfie, if you're anti-seal hunt, then you're seen as pro-mainland. This is not always the case. Because of fear, people like me, who hate the hunt, sit down and shut up. (As a side note, the majority of the people flying the pink, white and green weren't even alive before NL joined Canada. It's easy to bitch about how downtrodden you are, I suppose, in a country like Canada. If we were our own island nation we'd be dirt poor and still a colony right now. Or, possibly, a part of the US, a fate much worse than moritorium. Let's not go getting all Quebec here, please).

The vast majority of sealers are off-season fisherman. You know how much a crab fisherman can make in the span of three weeks? $50,000 even in a bad season. Most fisherman in Newfoundland fish several species a year. If one stint of three weeks provides assets equivalent to a yearly middle-class income, explain how a seal quota is necessary? It isn't always. People have to accept that. In some cases, it's simply done out of greed. Yeah, I really need that new 4x4.

I'm glad you think analysing NLs economic problems is so simple. What you fail to take into account is the goverment assistance offered to fisherman and plant workers after the fall of the cod stocks. "Here's some money, Skipper Joe; go learn a trade." 'NO.' So, you see, it's not that people can't learn; it's that they won't. And maybe they have a right to be pissed off. Maybe they have a right not to try something new, after fishing all their lives. I know I'd be pissed if it was me. But there's a point where you have to say to yourself "Do I want to live like this for the rest of my life?" Starting over is a daunting task, but Newfie's are reknowned for their tenacity. At least, they were until 1992. Where did that go?

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Mar 6, 2006, 02:12 AM Local time: Mar 6, 2006, 03:42 AM #22 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
Somone dragged a moose to death, eh? And I bet everyone interviewed for that NTV segment said pretty much the same thing. "Well, you know, it's not pretty, and it's not nice, but it IS necessary.
You bet wrong then. Actually the guy was charged, the same as any hunter will be caught clubbing.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
I can't remember the last time I heard of someone being killed in a seal-automobile collision.
That happened too... I don't think anyone was killed though, but a few years back there was a accident on the TCH because someone tried to avoid a large lump on the road, apparently it was a seal who actually swam into a fresh water to look for food, and it got lost.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
I'm glad you think analysing NLs economic problems is so simple. What you fail to take into account is the goverment assistance offered to fisherman and plant workers after the fall of the cod stocks. "Here's some money, Skipper Joe; go learn a trade.
Well I am not glad, it hurts me to see things playing out this way, but in reality not many fishermen are able to afford to learn a new trade or get a high-paying job, because a lot of the money that the government gave out where used by the fisher people to send their own kids to school, and of course things they need to keep paying off like their home, car payments, insurances, etc. I agree that the money where used by some to get a trade... it could have been 50/50, who knows... what I do know is that there is a population of people like I am describing, who used the government money to give their kids a chance that they did not have and need to use the skills that they currently have are most likely the ones who are in the seal hunt.

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Old Mar 6, 2006, 04:30 AM #23 of 50
No, really. Are you serious? -_-

Yes, I imagine the man who DRAGGED AN ANIMAL BEHIND HIS CAR UNTIL IT DIED was probably charged. Did you miss the huge amounts of sarcasm in my initial comments? Did you miss this?

"I'm willing to bet good money this was not the case. I'm willing to bet, actually, that the entire province was sickened by it, as were the SPCA, Humane Society, etc. Why? Because it's a sickening thing to do. We are at the top of the food chain, yes. That gives us dominance, but it also gives us responsibility."

Either you aren't reading what I'm actually saying, or your father should have used his fishing license money for his own education, as yours was clearly a lost cause. Clubbing happens in the seal hunt. Video has been taken of this happening. It was standard practice until very recently. Your claim that clubbers will be charged is patently false because, a) there are no real authorties on the ice to catch them doing it, and b) even if there were, clubbing is not illegal. Is it any less disgusting than dragging a moose to death? No. The man who killed the moose was charged, however. The sealers will not be.

One seal crawling into a road in St. Mary's isn't the same thing as the dozens of annual moose-automobile collisions that happen in Newfoundland every year. One seal accident in 60 years does not equal thousands of moose accidents.

I am refering to an entirely different program which offers money SPECIFICALLY and ONLY for the education of former fishery workers. Not their families. Not their cousin Billy. It does not give them money, it gives them tuition. If they choose not to take advantage of the program, they get neither money nor tuition. Clearly, money they DID NOT GET is not being used for house payments or their children's education. It comes in the form of tuition vouchers which go to the school, be it CONA, MUN, whatever. It is not cash. You are referring to TAGS and the license buy-back programs that started in '92 and continued until a few years ago. Find me some statistics on the seal hunt, please. Prove to me that these people who used imaginary money on car payments are killing seals. Otherwise, stop making such vague and unsupported statements. Also, read what you're replying to BEFORE you reply.

Finally, I'd like you to comment on this, because I would really like to hear what you have to say:

"The vast majority of sealers are off-season fisherman. You know how much a crab fisherman can make in the span of three weeks? $50,000 even in a bad season. Most fisherman in Newfoundland fish several species a year. If one stint of three weeks provides assets equivalent to a yearly middle-class income, explain how a seal quota is necessary?"

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Old Mar 7, 2006, 03:25 AM Local time: Mar 7, 2006, 04:55 AM #24 of 50
Originally Posted by Jerrica
Yes, I imagine the man who DRAGGED AN ANIMAL BEHIND HIS CAR UNTIL IT DIED was probably charged. Did you miss the huge amounts of sarcasm in my initial comments? Did you miss this?
Looks like you missed my sarcasm in my comments too. Gotcha

Originally Posted by Jerrica
"I'm willing to bet good money this was not the case. I'm willing to bet, actually, that the entire province was sickened by it, as were the SPCA, Humane Society, etc. Why? Because it's a sickening thing to do. We are at the top of the food chain, yes. That gives us dominance, but it also gives us responsibility."
Well Duh, Anyone with sense would agree to that, just as I disagree with clubbing. I was making a point that not all the prey that we hunt are killed humanely, what ever the species, not just seals, so should there be just as much attention drawn to the other species that we hunt besides just seals?

Originally Posted by Jerrica
Either you aren't reading what I'm actually saying, or your father should have used his fishing license money for his own education, as yours was clearly a lost cause. Clubbing happens in the seal hunt.
I think you are missing my point here. I KNOW that clubbing happens in seal hunts, not nearly as many in the past, but cruel deaths happen to other animals too, not just seals, but no one brings that much attention to those, just the cute seals.


Originally Posted by Jerrica
One seal crawling into a road in St. Mary's isn't the same thing as the dozens of annual moose-automobile collisions that happen in Newfoundland every year. One seal accident in 60 years does not equal thousands of moose accidents.
I was simply proving that it CAN happen.

Originally Posted by Jerrica
"The vast majority of sealers are off-season fisherman. You know how much a crab fisherman can make in the span of three weeks? $50,000 even in a bad season. Most fisherman in Newfoundland fish several species a year. If one stint of three weeks provides assets equivalent to a yearly middle-class income, explain how a seal quota is necessary?"
May as well comment so that you can be happy. The numbers of crab are dropping, and O'l Danny cut the quota, and so the protest of crab fishermen was born. Besides, if the crab fishery continues at it's current rate, the stock will slowly dry up like we did with the cod, the reason what the recover will be so difficult will be to the foreign over-fishing off the grand banks. The quota of about 319,500 seals is reasonable, with five-million of them out there, they will have no problems recovering until the next season.

I still think what the McCartneys say about making a tourism industry makes sense, but we can't just have people out on the ice flows, it's dangerous and the seals can be to, they are predators. Besides, I think that all the attention that the seal hunt is getting by animal rights activists to be a little suspicious anyway... they raise a lot of money in donations by showing baby seals being clubbed in a time that it is no longer done, and they don't listen to the science that a seal still moves while it is being skinned because of the swimming reflex that is active... even after death.

With all the money these activists have made off promoting misinformation about the seal hunt, they should direct their attention to hunts that really matter. Commercial whale hunting has been banned for a while, and the whale population is in danger, yet the Japanese still hunt these animals. It's like the only animals that matter are the cute cuddle animals matter more than the endangered and majestic ones.

Anyway... just in case some of you people are board with Jerrica and I commenting on each other, here is a site that should clear things up with the actual hunt. Seal Hunt: Myths and Facts

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Last edited by Chibi Neko; Mar 7, 2006 at 01:41 PM.
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Old Mar 7, 2006, 05:17 AM #25 of 50
Whalers are harassed all the time, as are many, many other hunters etc. These don't affect you as they occur elsewhere. The issue in your area is that of the seal hunt, and so, you'll be harassed about it.

Plus the argument that other animals are 'cruely killed' is hardly a great defence for the pro-sealing argument. If others do a thing, but it's something that you feel is cruel, does that somehow make it alright? I'd like to think one's personal views on the issue vis a vis cruelty or whatever other metric matters to you would be more important than 'Well sally's mom lets her stay up until eight.' or it's seal clubbing equivalent.

Not that I really have a stance on the issue one way or the other, just that the last argument on the matter seemed a little off.

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