Not a Muslim? Can't say Allah in Malaysia.

Are you shitting me? Those are passages from the Koran.

Edit: I'll be a little more precise. The first number is the chapter, the second is the verse. Hence 8:12 is Chapter 8 (The Accessions), verse 12. This states, "When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." How someone couled argue that doesn't encourage violence against the "infidel" is beyond me.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Ryu, if you honestly believe that the religion isn't easily twisted for the use of extremists, you're a fucking fool. Frank is only scratching the surface here.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

-you only take one verse from Koran,if you read that page from this verse that for past not this time.

-ten commandments not all Muslim,there only some doctrines.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Rework that first sentence. It makes no sense at all.

And on the second one, yes, there are only some doctrines that use specific parts of the Koran, but they all (including b'hai) utilise some form of ethnocentric, xenophobic rhetoric. They are the chosen people vs the unbelievers. You're not doing well here, RYU. Stop flailing.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quoting passages is fine anyone can twist views left right and centre; but just out of curiousity has anyone actualy read the whole thing?? English translations are easily obtainable.

I have read the whole Koran (In arabic and English) and its nothing like what most myopic folk who look at 1 or 2 paragraphs portray it to be. Sure there is one or two things I would I say I deplore and are outdated with the current moral values subjective to each society, even countries such as Pakistan with a 98% Muslim population don't use sharia law because of the aforementioned reason. Who the hell is somebody who lives in the West to judge who has better standards its toally subjective alot of the stuff you do they find deplorable and rightly so. The fact it doesn't say go bomb, murder, pilage, or rape, God has reserved pre-planned punishments for those that do. Plus I wish people really knew the true use and meaning of the word Jihad rather than just holy war against the west, which is wrong.

Islam's biggest problem is 'the brainwashers' as I like to call them who twist and twist so as to get these innocent young children to carry their will and NOT God's will. These people are always in it for themselves they don't give a shit about God and they are the ones that will burn in hell.

BTW

The line

Quote:

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.

Is actually in reference to the historic Battle of Badr, so know your stuff first rather than going onto some anti-Islamic website who doesn't know squat and just twists a quote and take it as gospel. Alot of the other lines are in references to other battles which have taken place in history e.g. Battle of Tabouk. So it doesn't say a Muslim should go blow up the white man which is most of you short sighted folk and those extremist pigs like Bin Laden who twist it think it to mean.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Denicalis

And on the second one, yes, there are only some doctrines that use specific parts of the Koran, but they all (including b'hai) utilise some form of ethnocentric, xenophobic rhetoric. They are the chosen people vs the unbelievers. You're not doing well here, RYU. Stop flailing.

I'm only make view point,not that if i'm doing well or not.and why you disturb? is only discussion.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by El Ray Fernando

Quoting passages is fine anyone can twist views left right and centre; but just out of curiousity has anyone actualy read the whole thing?? English translations are easily obtainable.

Yeah, I've read it. Last year (English), and I plan on reading through it again this month. I posted a disclaimer at the bottom of my post of the excerpts for the reasons you state above.

I'm not sying Islam is evil. I'm not saying Muslims are wrong. What I'm saying, well, I'm not. Deni said it already.

Originally Posted by Deni

[...] yes, there are some doctrines that only use specific parts of the Koran, but they all (including b'hai) utilise some form of ethnocentric, xenophobic rhetoric. They are the chosen people vs the unbelievers. You're not doing well here, RYU. Stop flailing.

Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by RYU

I'm only make view point,not that if i'm doing well or not.and why you disturb? is only discussion.

I don't understand your bastardized English.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Yeah, Fernando, I've read the whole thing. And it seems exclusionary and reactionary like most western religious texts. The problem here is you have two reactionary sides. One, like Smelnick, is made of people who hates muslims because, well, because let's be fair, lately, it's difficult not to look at them with derision given the activities of the extremists (Seen Jesus Camp? Watch it and tell me you don't take umbrage with Christians for not publicly condemning the actions of a minority. Just saying.) And the other, like RYU, jump up and down saying there's nothing wrong with the Muslim faith. But there is. Just like there are lots of things wrong with Christianity, and Shintoism. Being close-mindedly liberal is as retarded as being close-mindedly conservative.

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Maybe if "true" moderate Muslims would open their mouths and condemn extremist Islam at any occasion they can, the western world wouldn't be so vindicative in it's view of Islam. I heard the protests from the official European Muslim organizations during the Mahomet caricature crisis, but I don't hear them condemning terrorist attacks and religious oppressions that happen every weeks.

Just saying, it would help drawing a line, you know.

How ya doing, buddy?

HAHAHA

That's like, telling Catholics in the Philippines to condemn the Branch Davidian cult in America. It is a silly, tired argument born of an unfortunate tendency to lump together groups whose only connection is the name of their beliefs.

Not to mention that Muslim leaders have been doing it. You just never notice.

And it doesn't solve a damn thing anyway.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by El Ray Fernando

Is actually in reference to the historic Battle of Badr, so know your stuff first rather than going onto some anti-Islamic website who doesn't know squat and just twists a quote and take it as gospel. Alot of the other lines are in references to other battles which have taken place in history e.g. Battle of Tabouk. So it doesn't say a Muslim should go blow up the white man which is most of you short sighted folk and those extremist pigs like Bin Laden who twist it think it to mean.

You know, that happens a lot regarding the Hebrew Bible/New Testament, as well. A lot of people will read verses out of context. So, we all can say, that is probably a reference, sure.

However, the problem lies with the fact that God is supposed to be eternal and never-changing. If God claims that he'd kill non-believers the first time, what's keeping him back this time? Bin Laden might be twisting it to mean something, but essentially, isn't he being pretty true to the intent of the Koran?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Bigblah

HAHAHA

That's like, telling Catholics in the Philippines to condemn the Branch Davidian cult in America. It is a silly, tired argument born of an unfortunate tendency to lump together groups whose only connection is the name of their beliefs.

Not to mention that Muslim leaders have been doing it. You just never notice.

And it doesn't solve a damn thing anyway.

This is a far-stretched and invalid analogy on so many levels. Let's just mention the fact the Vatican has always condemned the IRA, shall we ?

And I'm sure some do, but you gotta admit it's a vastly ambiguous situation.

I was speaking idiomatically.

How many followers do the Vatican represent? That's awfully ambiguous as well. You're asking for lip service that's both unreasonable and ineffectual.

I simply hate it when people use guilt -- or worse, vicarious guilt -- as some sort of leverage.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Bigblah

How many followers do the Vatican represent? That's awfully ambiguous as well. You're asking for lip service that's both unreasonable and ineffectual.

I simply hate it when people use guilt -- or worse, vicarious guilt -- as some sort of leverage.

I don't see how it is ambiguous, nope. The centralization and hierarchic system of the Catholic church is kind of a special case though, yes.

If you really don't want to see the correlation between the fact the world is flooded with extreme acts committed by Muslims that no other Muslims openly and firmly condemn and the growing incomprehension of Islam in the Western world, then I don't know what to add. =/

To me, the Islamic communities worldwide should be demonstrating when others commit despicable acts in the name of their faith, but hey, I guess I'm an idealist or something ~

FELIPE NO

Cool. I just heard a segment called "Ask a Muslim" on a morning radio talk show I enjoy. Here's a few things the guest mentioned...

Islam is a religion of peace. Muslims advocate drawing close to God and living a godly life.

It's frustrating to many Muslims to constantly tell people what they aren't instead of getting to tell them what they are.

Treating women poorly is a misuse of the Islamic faith.

Many of the most populous muslim countries have or have had female rulers at the highest level of office.

Infidel is a Catholic term, not an Islamic one.

There is no Islamic clergy. Additional respect is given to theologians, but it isn't a position of power.

Many muslims do in fact denounce radical Islamists. But that sort of thing is hardly news worthy so we often don't hear about it. However, the outcry against radicalism needs to be louder in certain parts of the world.

The footage from Palestine of muslims celebrating the 9-11 attack was more about celebrating the success of a muslim rather than the death of 2000+ innocents. Not unlike the way many African Americans celebrated O.J.'s freedom but not Nicole's death.

Feel free to visit or call your nearest Islamic center. They will be more than happy to answer your questions and explain the truth about their faith.

Many muslims actually have great affinity for America: movies, music, cars, people. But many muslims can't stand our foreign policy. This includes the unconditional support of Israel, but also dictatorships in the middle east.

There were some other points as well. The hosts asked questions and let callers ask some as well. Not as fun as the "Ask a whore" or "Axe a black" segments this show has had in the past, but still very entertaining and informative.

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Ok, pineapple, you understand why a lot of that doesn't work, right? I.E. there is muslim clergy in a very powerful position. They lead entire factions, and governments. And also I believe the "many" countries is like, two or three. And one of them got shot. Also, the catholics are a religion of peace. Oh, Crusades. Oops. And they were cheering the success of a muslim IN KILLING THOUSANDS OF FUCKING INNOCENTS.

God, get a grip. Propaganda is propaganda is propaganda. The religion is flawed.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I'm not saying I agree with everything I paraphrased. But I did find the interview very informative at times. I think it really helped to hear things from a different perspective.

"Many countries" means at least four. Yeah, not sure if that qualifies as 'many', but I don't know how many democratic countries have large muslim populations.

I don't doubt that there are powerful muslim leaders, but my understanding from what I heard was that the political power they wield is not prescribed by Islamic teachings.

I find it interesting, or to be more honest, depressing how the majority of those who cling to Islam or Christianity appear to do so in a way that isn't true to the teachings of those faiths. Well, maybe the majority isn't doing things the way they should be...but they are a majority so they end up being representatives. D'oh!

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Originally Posted by niki

To me, the Islamic communities worldwide should be demonstrating when others commit despicable acts in the name of their faith, but hey, I guess I'm an idealist or something ~

No, you're just a weird person who thinks demonstrations are required to compensate for outside ignorance. Demonstrations condemning Western countries or policies are barely noticed as it is.

Also, pro-religion propaganda? In my Palace?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

The footage from Palestine of muslims celebrating the 9-11 attack was more about celebrating the success of a muslim rather than the death of 2000+ innocents. Not unlike the way many African Americans celebrated O.J.'s freedom but not Nicole's death.

lol, let's all knowingly celebrate something we know is wrong and then expect people to think that's cool.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Let's not kid ourselves, they enjoyed the sight of the WTC towers crumbling. The morning after the incident I went to my General Paper class, and my tutor (an Indian female) was almost beside herself with glee. SERVES THEM RIGHT, she said. And everyone in class giggled.

And this is a pro-America country.

How ya doing, buddy?

People in general, especially large groups of them, can be and often are...idiots.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Oh, don't pretend you guys don't do it too. Emotional detachment, Internet, et cetera.

Oh yeah:



FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Bigblah

No, you're just a weird person who thinks demonstrations are required to compensate for outside ignorance. Demonstrations condemning Western countries or policies are barely noticed as it is.

I don't see how it is so weird in our modern globalized times. Besides, I witness this on both an international and local point of view. See my Mohamed caricature reference earlier.

Answering "lulz all terrorists" to any thread that involves a westerner criticizing Islam is fine I guess, but trying to understand the causes behind it would be better.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

To push another analogy, have you seen wide-scale demonstrations by Christians against pedophiliac clergymen? And somehow it's easier for everyone to accept that these are isolated cases without the aid of street protests.

Originally Posted by niki

but trying to understand the causes behind it would be better.

Understanding works both ways!




(This picture is a representation of just how horribly off tangent the argument has gotten, because I simply cannot fathom how 9/11 relates to the Malaysian religious ministry acting like dicks)

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Originally Posted by Bigblah

To push another analogy, have you seen wide-scale demonstrations by Christians against pedophiliac clergymen? And somehow it's easier for everyone to accept that these are isolated cases without the aid of street protests.

But pedophiliac clergymen are sanctioned by their church ... =/

And yes, this has gotten off tangent like pretty much all Islam related topics do. I'll grant you that pretty much all Bush/American foreign policy topics do as well, though. ~_~

There's nowhere I can't reach.