Theological Discussion

So by that you mean he gives you the human faculties (i.e. intelligence) to make a yes or no decision on accepting Christianity, or he places you automatically on the road to Christianity whether you choose to walk it or not? That sounds unclear but I guess what i'm asking is this; is everyone who hasn't read the gospel simply a Christian who is ignorant of the fact, like a seed waiting to germinate?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Not everyone has to be a Christian. I'm gonna get in trouble for saying that, but I really believe that that is the correct theology. The Bible says that basically the universe itself proclaims his existence. But as far as people who God has seen fit to put in a position where you are basically forced to make a decision about the Gospel, you're expected to accept it. God basically just wants people who are genuinely interested in him. In order for that to be possible, He had to give you the ability to say no to Him, otherwise you'd be a robot and for some reason that's just not good enough for him. Of course, we all understand that having robots would be unfulfilling, and we know this because we can relate to God in some ways. That is what's meant by "we were created in His image." He doesn't have a physical image. It just means we are wired to understand God in certain ways.

How ya doing, buddy?

Call me crazy but in my world 'correct' and 'metaphor' don't mix well. It's like looking at an abstract painting and trying to be 'correct' with your understanding of it.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by SMX

Call me crazy but in my world 'correct' and 'metaphor' don't mix well. It's like looking at an abstract painting and trying to be 'correct' with your understanding of it.

What the hell are you talking about?
The only time we (the christian folk) mentioned metaphor is when Minion said that referring to God as "He" is a metaphor. As such, it is a rather incomplete term. Such is with any term that is used to describe God.

However, given your analogy, one could feasibly get an interpretation of the art wrong. For example, it could be a drab, dark, solemn depiction of someone suffering. Then some freak comes along and says that it is a parade of happy clowns. I leave the realization of the absurdity of such a conclusion to you.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Was something I said not clear, SMX? Something outside of our collective experience can only be described in metaphors because we have never felt with any of our senses what it is really like. It's just the nature of supernature.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Wait. So. Is the BIBLE a metaphor?

How ya doing, buddy?

Some of it, yeah. Jesus used parables all the time.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Minion

Some of it, yeah. Jesus used parables all the time.

So could you please expound on the following:

"Don’t imagine that I {Jesus} came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine!"

Matthew 10:34

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Well, was he right? What are we fighting about right now?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Minion

Well, was he right? What are we fighting about right now?

I am asking you to explain what you feel (The Church) Jesus meant by that lovely, LOVELY phrase.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

The biggest criticism I have of Christianity (and this is just coming from experience with my immediate religious community) is selective use of the Bible. I don't understand how one can say, "This book is holy" and then disagree with much of it. I see the Bible as an all or nothing deal, and that's why I can't accept it as anything further than Jesus' teaching of common sense. I agree with the messages of pacifism and respect, but I also think those values can be found in other, less dogmatic places.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I am asking you to explain what you feel (The Church) Jesus meant by that lovely, LOVELY phrase.

Basically, just what I said. What he is talking about is the consequence of following Him. The "sword" is exactly what it implies - opposition. Somtimes violent opposition. He is warning us that we'll have to deal with it.

If you read the passage in context, He talks about "turning a man against his father, a daughter against mother" etc.. This is pretty much what happens. When someone chooses to follow Him and that person's family doesn't, that causes conflict. Surely not peace.

Actually, He is not saying anything new. He is merely reiterating the phrophecy from Micah 7:6.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I am asking you to explain what you feel (The Church) Jesus meant by that lovely, LOVELY phrase.

Sass, I find it harder and harder to read what you write when you include so much condescension and arrogant presumtuousness.
Weren't you the one who was bitching about "Christians being condescending" or something?

EDIT:
Ah yes, here we go:
http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/sh...sion#post47439

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Fjordor

Sass, I find it harder and harder to read what you write when you include so much condescension and arrogant presumtuousness.
Weren't you the one who was bitching about "Christians being condescending" or something?

EDIT:
Ah yes, here we go:
http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/sh...sion#post47439

I like how you didn't answer the question, Fyodor! I wasn't condescending or ANYTHING in my question! I just wanted to know what the explanation was of that statement! Please! Do not be confused!

Don't YOU think that statement is a little....uh....harsh coming from a man who claims to be the son of god? Claims to be a peaceful man? I think it is. Don't play the Hate Card against me because of my interpretation, sir!

Perhaps you can also explain this one?
“If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”
Luke 14:26

Fyodor, surely you can see how a person would be turned off by this, no?

And Minion, it seems more to me that he is pretty much encouraging war-mongering in the name of faith. Maybe its just my interpretation, being an idiot and all. =/

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I like how you didn't answer the question, Fyodor! I wasn't condescending or ANYTHING in my question! I just wanted to know what the explanation was of that statement! Please! Do not be confused!

Perhaps you can also explain this one?
“If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”

Luke 14:26

And Minion, it seems more to me that he is pretty much encouraging war-mongering in the name of faith. Maybe its just my interpretation, being an idiot and all. =/

I didn't answer because:
1) Again, it is hard to acknowledge condescending questions
2) Minion took care of it

Also, it seems to me like you are not actually interested in getting answers to these questions, and rather you are looking for something which you can mock us for. It seems more and more like you are trying to catch us in some stupid logical trap.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Fjordor

I didn't answer because:
1) Again, it is hard to acknowledge condescending questions
2) Minion took care of it

So you agree with Minion's assessement?

Quote:

Also, it seems to me like you are not actually interested in getting answers to these questions, and rather you are looking for something which you can mock us for. It seems more and more like you are trying to catch us in some stupid logical trap.

I am simply ATTEMPTING to discuss things in the Bible I am a little confused on, Fyodor. I am asking you these questions because I'd like to hear what you guys think of these scriptures!

Are you getting offended because I am selecting rather bizarre and unloving words of the Bible? Thats PRECISELY why I am asking about them! I need clarification! It seems a little contradictory to me! Perhaps I am just not understanding, and I was hoping you could maybe shed some light on the matters at hand?

No? You'd rather get offended? OKAY~

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Quote:

And Minion, it seems more to me that he is pretty much encouraging war-mongering in the name of faith. Maybe its just my interpretation, being an idiot and all. =/

I didn't call you an idiot, but I think you're wrong. I also think that what he meant by that was pretty obvious from the context. Just read the whole chapter and I think you'll get it.

The problem with the Luke passage is two-fold: there is a translation difficulty and a figurative concept that you haven't picked up on.

Firstly, there is apparently no way to express moderate feelings for love/hatred in Hebrew. Take Luke 16:13 for example:

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."

Now, does a servant HAVE to hate one of the masters? Hate is such a strong word. Could he maybe just not like him as much? Seems a little extreme, but in the proper cultural context, people would know what you were talking about. It's a relational thing. Which takes me to my next point.

What Jesus is saying is that compared to how your're supposed to love Him, your feelings that you describe as love toward you family and friends are like hatred. It is simple hyperbole - a concept that is used extensively in Hebrew, in the Bible and by Jesus himself (ie, forgive your enemies 77 times 7 times, etc.).

I was speaking idiomatically.

I think (but what do I know i'm not a Christian after all) what the last excerpt is trying to explain is the great degree of sacrifice a person must be willing to make to ensure his life is preserved after death. A general denouncement of not just material possessions but those people we hold most dear as well. I don't think it sounds reasonable but it gets the point across.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Minion

I didn't call you an idiot, but I think you're wrong. I also think that what he meant by that was pretty obvious from the context. Just read the whole chapter and I think you'll get it.

Sir. What makes you think I haven't.

Quote:

The problem with the Luke passage is two-fold: there is a translation difficulty and a figurative concept that you haven't picked up on.

A figurative concept. Which I haven't picked up on yet. Because I don't know how to read.

Quote:

Firstly, there is apparently no way to express moderate feelings for love/hatred in Hebrew. Take Luke 16:13 for example:

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."

Now, does a servant HAVE to hate one of the masters? Hate is such a strong word. Could he maybe just not like him as much? Seems a little extreme, but in the proper culture context, people would know what you were talking about. It's a relational thing. Which takes me to my next point.

What Jesus is saying is that compared to how your supposed to love Him, your feelings that you describe as love toward you family and friends are like hatred. It is simple hyperbole - a concept that is used extensively in Hebrew, in the Bible and by Jesus himself (ie, forgive your enemies 77 times 7 times, etc.).

So you're okay with people demanding your love? THINGS demanding your love? These same things threatening your life for your love? And they love you back?

CAN YOU SEE HOW THIS IS A LITTLE BIZARRE TO US, MINION.

"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you. I am the Lord”
Leviticus 19:28
O SHIT. Get a tattoo, you go to Hell. Get an ear pericing for your child - you go to Hell. You shit into the wind you go to Hell. I can see why you guys are wound so tight. =/

I guess circumcision is also wrong and bad, ne?

FELIPE NO

It's not a demand. He's saying that if you don't love Him that much, then you don't "get it". It's more of a litmus test for how close you are to God than anything like a demand.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Minion

It's not a demand. He's saying that if you don't love Him that much, then you don't "get it". It's more of a litmus test for how close you are to God than anything like a demand.

So Minion. Prove to me how close you are as my friend to me. I want you to prove your friendship to me by simply drawing a pint of your own blood in my name.

You'll surely say no to this, right?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

So you agree with Minion's assessement?


I am simply ATTEMPTING to discuss things in the Bible I am a little confused on, Fyodor. I am asking you these questions because I'd like to hear what you guys think of these scriptures!

Are you getting offended because I am selecting rather bizarre and unloving words of the Bible? Thats PRECISELY why I am asking about them! I need clarification! It seems a little contradictory to me! Perhaps I am just not understanding, and I was hoping you could maybe shed some light on the matters at hand?

No? You'd rather get offended? OKAY~

Yes, more or less.

And I am sorry, but like I said, the language you have a tendency to use gives me impression of baiting and mockery. That is just my impression though. And I guess there is not any way to tell with certainty either, considering the nature of conversation through written word.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Fjordor

Yes, more or less.

And I am sorry, but like I said, the language you have a tendency to use gives me impression of baiting and mockery. That is just my impression though. And I guess there is not any way to tell with certainty either, considering the nature of conversation through written word.

Interesting parrallel you make there, my dear Fyodor. (I am sorry for writing Fyodor all the time. You just change your name so much, I can't keep up. Sorry again.)

And yea, so may language teeters on sarcasm. Thats not necessarily intentional. Consider who I talk to all day long. ^_^

Eitherway, here's another one for you to explain! (I am enjoying this!)
"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted."
Leviticus 26:21-22

Either you or Minion. I just like to hear what you guys think about them. Like I said, to ME, they are fairly hostile words. To you, its words of wisdom, I guess? =/

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

So Minion. Prove to me how close you are as my friend to me. I want you to prove your friendship to me by simply drawing a pint of your own blood in my name.

You'll surely say no to this, right?

I don't see what that has to do with anything. God is not asking for my blood. He's not even asking me to prove anything. Why would He if He's omniscient?

And Sass, we've addressed the old testament a billion times. Do we really have to keep going over what all that shit in Leviticus and Deuteronomy is about?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Minion

I don't see what that has to do with anything. God is not asking for my blood. He's not even asking me to prove anything. Why would He if He's omniscient?

He asks for your blood in death, first of all.

If he's omniscient, why the hell does he feel the need to demand proof of your love all the time? I HAVE a scripture written down somewhere on this blasted notebook which encourages sacrifice. Literally. I'll edit it in once I find it.

AH! I have SEVERAL, here! <3

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."
Genesis 22:1-18

Burn your son - the one you love so much - sacrifice him to me?

I was speaking idiomatically.