[Classic] Old games are great, don't forget

My point with NSMB was that it sold a ton of copies, so you can't really dispute that there is demand for the game and ones like it.

However, the truely great 2D platformers have been few and far between, especially nowadays. Maybe even nonexistant. Klonoa 2 is the only thing that really comes to mind and that was a long time ago (although it was nice that they FINALLY gave us domestic Rondo of Blood). For the record, I thought NSMB was fun, but it could have been much better designed...New power-ups were lame, the overworld felt kinda slapped on and the control paled VS SMB3 or SMW (or even Peach, which felt TOO easy to control...which I liked).

Originally Posted by wiki's "response" section for NSMB...and it lists valid sources

New Super Mario Bros. met with great success upon launching in Japan, selling nearly 420,000 units in its first day of availability, for a total of nearly 900,000 copies in its first four days. At the time, it was the best debut for a Nintendo DS game; it has since lost the top position to Pokémon Diamond and Pearl.[25] The game reached the half a million mark in the United States in little over a month[26] (selling at a rate of 20 copies every minute), and the one million mark twelve weeks after release.[27]

As of September 30, 2007, New Super Mario Bros. has sold 11.5 million copies worldwide.[28]

The game has generally received positive reviews. It was rated 9.5 by four reviewers in Nintendo Power, making it one of the highest rated games since the inception of their current rating system. Among other positive reviews, IGN also gave New Super Mario Bros. a 9.5/10, making it along with Mario Kart DS and Elite Beat Agents, the highest rated Nintendo DS game on the site.

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Critically, IIRC, New Super Mario Bros. was shunned for not really establishing anything new with the series. But what I do recall quite vividly was it selling a shitload of DS handhelds. Kind of a gray area to talk about, since it was basically a game that took the safe route as far as development and content go. I think I'd enjoy platformers more if I weren't constantly being sent on "collect X out of X number of items" type quests.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

That's pretty much what I meant yeah. Plus, it's MARIO -- of course it sold well. But a lot of people weren't happy that it really was nothing new whatsoever.

I enjoyed it, but it was short and easy in addition to offering me nothing I haven't already experienced. I really wish they'd put some serious effort into a new platformer (an original one!) but as I said, it's rare these days.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by MKfan

Finally, some good old school gamers who understand my point.
For all who want to enjoy a good rpg, i suggest playing CHRONO TRIGGER and CHRONO CROSS.
These two great games will surely be appreciated by all rpg fans especially new ones.

Don't you think so?

I really loathed CC (other than the wonderful ost), but CT is a great rpg and still one of my favorites to this day.

Anyway, I agree with the OP whole heartedly. I think people these days are too hooked on pretty graphics to care much about good a game actually is.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Forsety

I enjoyed it, but it was short and easy in addition to offering me nothing I haven't already experienced. I really wish they'd put some serious effort into a new platformer (an original one!) but as I said, it's rare these days.

The Battle Mode was tits.

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It is definitely one of those games that makes a 'safe' game like Final Fantasy X seem uninspired.

Hey, now you're talkin.

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I just prefer to get away from the whole "games as art" mentality

That's dandy and all, and I agree with you to an extent, but that doesn't mean one should make sweeping comments about entire libraries of titles. I have a certain nostalgic attachment to the game's of my childhood (I have a freakin Ness tattoo), but I find tons of impressive, artistic, qualities in tons of games I play presently. That's why I love Mass Effect ant BioShock so much. Both of them have some gameplay faults, but both really did achieve the level of sophistication, presentation wise, that the developers aimed for.

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you know, where you feel obligated to see what the game has to offer, even during totally dead periods

I was chatting with a friend a few days ago about something similar. Gamer Points/Achievements being implemented and used to artificially extend playtime came up as a topic.

Through it all, though, I'm just not ready to resign and say that imagination is out. There's always developers that I can count on.

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I really loathed CC (other than the wonderful ost)

Seconded, in both regards.

FELIPE NO

2D Combat games used to be rather exciting, Indeed. However, some 2D games witnessed a mediocre transition to 3D, why not to mention KoF Series (say Maximum Impact). This may explain the rollback to older graphics (2D), perhaps to enhance the artistic touch 2D games are known for. This is exactly the case for KoF XI, you can really distinguish that game's fun, from its 3D predecessors, which look so damn crappy.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Django!

That's dandy and all, and I agree with you to an extent, but that doesn't mean one should make sweeping comments about entire libraries of titles.

Uh, okay...I didn't. I just said there are many games nowadays I have no interest in playing because they don't look very fun or aren't, so I won't force myself to like something anymore or "try to understand what the artist was going for" if I'm not enjoying the gameplay or my eyes are closing during a cutscene/tutorial. That's a game-to-game thing.

What I mean about games as art...Ico/Colossus are always thought of as examples of videogames as "legitimate art", while I find them exceptionally boring to actually play. So I'm not going to press further in seeing what they have to offer to "legitimize" the status of games. That's what I meant. I find enough art in finding a game that can hold my attention, because that generally means there's more than just the gameplay I'm attracted to, but it's still getting that part down really well. Like I said...8-bit cityscapes are just as much art as the latest PS3-polygon pusher and if anything, they're much harder to appreciate since they're considered archaic by many gamers.

As far as "art" goes...Hell, there's GH notecharts I think of as art (because of how well they represent their respective songs), so I'm not trying to play the elitist card there. I'm just saying I won't even try to appreciate something if it's boring the crap out of me, although some aspects might catch my eye (graphics, music, female bustline, etc).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by MKfan

2D Combat games used to be rather exciting, Indeed. However, some 2D games witnessed a mediocre transition to 3D, why not to mention KoF Series (say Maximum Impact). This may explain the rollback to older graphics (2D), perhaps to enhance the artistic touch 2D games are known for. This is exactly the case for KoF XI, you can really distinguish that game's fun, from its 3D predecessors, which look so damn crappy.

KOF: MI was meant to be a separate project from their 2D series from the beginning. Just wanted to clarify that.

I pretty much agree with the OP's sentiments. The fact that I can still pick up Tetris and have tons of fun with it should speak volumes for that game's design. I only with a lot more developers can hit such a mark. Only other game that can (for me at least) is Chrono Trigger. I can't even explain why, but I can pick that game up and play it through a infinite amount of times without getting bored of it. This game came out a very long time ago though. I only wish developers could hit such a pinnacle more often though.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Chrono Trigger is just one of those games that just worked. I dunno how many times I played it myself. I just know that a friend looked (and ruined) one of my saves with the words of 'you have no life' given how strong my characters were (read all stars for stats).

I think NSMB is a mixed bag. A lot of people who played SMB3 waaaay back have grown up. That game came out at least fifteen years ago and a new generation of young gamers is around. Hence, they don't see NSMB as awesome or inspired as other generations (usually anyway) and the older generations have grown up to the extent that games may not interest them as much anymore.

That doesn't mean NSMB is a bad game. I played it. I didn't get into it but I don't think it's a bad game. I think it's just me not getting into games like that these days. I mean, it is a well done game with fairly decent levels and all. Yes, the new power ups (including that idiotic non-stopping shell) were not on the level as the super leaf and cape in previous 2-D Mario games but they had to try SOMETHING a bit new.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I agree about the sentiments about total freedom vs. charted path i.e. Castlevania III > SotN. I purchased SotN and played it on PSX looking forward to a great new Castlevania experience and instead it was worse. There was no challenge due to the fact that everything was open-ended. I think that works to some extent when a game is built from the ground-up to take advantage of that. For example, Grand Theft Auto III is built completely around that premise. The open-endedness works because the missions are built around this premise, and hence the "challenge" arises because of this. I didn't appreciate SotN because I didn't see the challenge in encountering enemies in hallways/corridors that were all basically the same. I prefer Mega Man or old-school 'vania challenge where you have to jump on a moving platform while reacting to an interactive environment (moving spikes or traps) while also at the same time avoiding enemy fire and possibly flying enemies, where any of these things could put you off that moving platform you just jumped on and down onto pointy spikes of death.

If somehow 3D games could do a better job of providing this kind of charted-path-difficulty, then I would find them a lot more engrossing.

P.S. - I think you have the right idea Jazzflight. After all, how many cheap yet good PS2 games could you get for the price of a PS3 ($500)?? Quite a few... more than you would have time to really play in a decade in fact.

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Originally Posted by speculative

I didn't appreciate SotN because I didn't see the challenge in encountering enemies in hallways/corridors that were all basically the same.

I don't know if you've really beaten the game (by beating the game you should have cleared around 180%-226% of the map). I hope you didn't, it's better for you to be mistaken rather than to have such low considerations on such a masterpiece. Enemies aren't the same at all, and some bosses are damn challenging. Additionaly, CSotN has probably one of the most powerful melodies as being either a RPG or a simple game. Even if I had the same opinion, i would have -willingly- played the game for that unique reason.

Maybe you should have a look at this, it shall bring you to a less speculative conclusion.

I was speaking idiomatically.

"Open-endedness" and "total freedom" without a good plot guidence will lead to the creation of a crappy game.
That's why game developers and designers are careful in their choices, they tend to restict freedom and improve gameplay otherwise.

Originally Posted by speculative

I didn't appreciate SotN because I didn't see the challenge in encountering enemies in hallways/corridors that were all basically the same.

Btw, SOTN is an amazing game.
Have a deeper look inside you'll probably find a challenge, at least.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

People could experiment back in the day. Development costs weren't nearly as high as they are for the current next-gen systems. Yeah, you can argue X-Box arcade and the like, but you're not going to see major studios using that as a channel for pushing new stuff...they simply can't afford to devote the time to developing new and interesting games that haven't been tested before, unless they're a major studio and damn sure that whoever's developing will have a hit on their hands.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by JazzFlight

An interesting thing nowadays is that in Gamestops, many PS2 and XBox games are reduced to $5-10, even the top-rated classics.

I've started quite a collection of PS2 games (~280 so far) and I see so many people just brush by the giant bins of "old" PS2 games because they either can't stand the graphics or need to have only the absolute latest games.

This week (Buy 2, get 1 free on used games) I'm slowly working my way up and down each bin and shelf and usually walk out with a hefty stack of games. There are so many forgotten gems that just go by the wayside.

What does 'oldschool' even mean these days? The fact that people are calling PS2 dated makes me feel like a blooming dinosaur.

When I personally think of oldschool gaming, I think of anything pre 3D; mostly 8 and 16 bit. (although there were games even before NES) Is it wrong to consider PS, Saturn, or N64 the beginning of the modern era of gaming? After all, the systems that followed these essentially have only improved on the established 3D formula.

My own problem is that I am a little too attached to old 16 bit games and I have a bit of difficulty acclimatizing to many games that are more modern. As a result, I think I've enjoyed my DS the most of the more recent platforms. Most of the newer games I have enjoyed have been RPGs on the PS but due to finances / career goals, I haven't purchased a PS2 or PS3 / Xbox 360 so I've not kept up on this genre. The latest FF I have played was FF X and after hearing about FF X-2, I was largely turned off from Square - Enix. I loved Tales of Symphonia on GC though. Although modern J-RPGs are fun, I find I am often annoyed with a rather archaic convention still seen in most games in that genre: battles taking place in a separate screen from the dungeon. Switching back and forth between the battle screen and the field map can be disorientating, especially when you have a 3D camera.

Oh well, I have played the Metroid Prime games (1 and 2) as well as Zelda TP, and I thoroughly enjoyed both.

On the lines of old school gaming, I really enjoy SNES games and some of the better NES games. It is astounding to me how much fun a game like Turtles III can be, even after being exposed to the likes of this latest generation, where the presentation is honestly jaw dropping. I feel as though the big budget more modern productions lack the earthy connectedness and simple, satisfying gameplay that makes the older games so much more fun. While I don't consider myself an oldschool gamer, I have to say that these games appeal to me more than the new releases. Maybe the quality of games is going down? Food for thought.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I think 'old school' varies per person. My parents play video games and were even telling my wife how they started when video games first came out with Pong and the Atari era. To THEM, that is truly old school. It's scary to look at the times now in which they are considering getting a Wii.

For me, I might look back at the Atari (as I played it a great deal) as old school as well. I guess I think of the graphics, the storylines (or there lack of) and the simplicity of the games at that time. I could also see NES and SNES games also being considered old school compared to the newer systems out these days. I don't consider though PS2 and such 'old school' because the system isn't even a 'generation old' let alone has stopped producing games (granted, there are exceptions tothis. People STILL make games occasionally for the Master System). Heck, I don't consider PS1, Dreamcast or N64 to be 'old school' as it still feels like 'yesterday' that I was playing each consistently.

Heck, as i sit back, i do wonder when I will consider PS1, N64 and Dreamcast 'old school'. My only guess is down the road when all the systems have full network support (remember that the Dreamcast had limited support), and/or have evolved to the next stage (something in the form of how Wii games are now played). From there, we will continually move towards a totally virtual world in which aperson's movements and actions are felt and used in that world (in which we are already making progess on). Basically, I forsee the day, albeit not for a long, long time because of feasibility and acceptability (remember how people didn't accept virtual boy all too well) in which people will basically take a quote right out of Back to The Future II (but slightly modified).

"You have to use your hands for that?! That's old school...."
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