[Classic] Old games are great, don't forget

many gamers forget about them(oldschool games),some times even saying that new games surpass by all means old ones.

seriously guys many should think about the game play and "cool ideas" part for a change.

don't you agree?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Yes, the new games have cooler graphics and all, but as a general rule they've seemed to get easier. So the old games for the NES in particular still have massive potential for people wanting a good challenge. Screw how many people you can teabag in Halo 3, you can't be considered a gamer with talent until you can beat Megaman 4 on the console.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Yeah, I still find myself playing the 'classics' such as Final fantasy IV and VI, Zelda, Mario and Megaman. They are great games with that special 'feeling' where people are being more inovative at the time rather than just adding in features to make it bigger/longer.

BTW, so you know for future reference, this thread would be more suited for the VIdeo Games forum here.

How ya doing, buddy?

Agreed. Game developers have probably gone mad for complex graphics, as the current pieces of hardware are hungry and need to be fully exploited. This wouldn't be much of a problem for younger gamers and newcomers, who wouldn't have forcibly witnessed some absolutely gorgeous games. For those who actually did, the gaming field at its current state and evolution rate will never rollback to what it used to be.

For the gameplay part, I think people are tending to play for pleasure rather than to accomplish tough, and most likely annoying, challenges. I might be wrong, but this is the way new games look like to me anyways.

How ya doing, buddy?

Finally, some good old school gamers who understand my point.
For all who want to enjoy a good rpg, i suggest playing CHRONO TRIGGER and CHRONO CROSS.
These two great games will surely be appreciated by all rpg fans especially new ones.

Don't you think so?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Sticking to my strength here, I love every game from the FF series I have played (goes back as far as VI), but as soon as X came out my best friend got interested in it and so did my brother. People expect better graphics because of the power of the console and I think they really miss out on some damn good gameplay because of it. Bear in mind though, amazing graphics doesn't necessarily = shitty gameplay.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Absolutely right.
But sadly not too many games are like that (awesome graphics+cool gameplay) especially RPGs.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Bernard Black

Bear in mind though, amazing graphics doesn't necessarily = shitty gameplay.

As for gameplay, even amazing graphics should be considered at a somehow "chronological" context. FF7's pixelated sprites would look crappy as hell compared to some new stuff, say FFX-2. However, FF7's graphics were among the most sophisticated when it was released, probably around 1997. My point is that old "rich" games were quite well-balanced, and therefore the graphics part was never that neglected.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

An interesting thing nowadays is that in Gamestops, many PS2 and XBox games are reduced to $5-10, even the top-rated classics.

I've started quite a collection of PS2 games (~280 so far) and I see so many people just brush by the giant bins of "old" PS2 games because they either can't stand the graphics or need to have only the absolute latest games.

This week (Buy 2, get 1 free on used games) I'm slowly working my way up and down each bin and shelf and usually walk out with a hefty stack of games. There are so many forgotten gems that just go by the wayside.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Null

As for gameplay, even amazing graphics should be considered at a somehow "chronological" context. FF7's pixelated sprites would look crappy as hell compared to some new stuff, say FFX-2. However, FF7's graphics were among the most sophisticated when it was released, probably around 1997. My point is that old "rich" games were quite well-balanced, and therefore the graphics part was never that neglected.

Although X-2 had amazing graphics it was, in all fairness, shite.

I get your point though. What I was trying to get across was that although I hadn't grown up with the graphical style of FFVI, I didn't write it off as a shitty game because the graphics aren't as good as the later games (which I did grow up with).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

FFVI is a marvel. There is no better Final Fantasy, IMO. I certainly won't forget the old-school, thanks.

Gamers are becoming spoiled for good graphics and really aren't being given good story-lines and interesting characters to accompany the graphics. I am not sure who said it, but the argument is made that 3 dimensional graphics is rather arbitrary when it is accompanied by 2 dimensional characters and story-lines. I tend to agree with that almost exclusively.

There are good games being made now too though but there are quite a few awesome 'elder' games that will always garner respect for their excellent design.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by MKFan

For all who want to enjoy a good rpg, i suggest playing CHRONO TRIGGER and CHRONO CROSS.

Yes, old games *are* great. If a game can truly stand the test of time and remain playable and fun many years after its release, then you know it accomplished the creator's goal. Chrono Trigger's a good example, since most people who played it back when it came out can still pick it up and play it even today.

Originally Posted by Bernard Black

I get your point though. What I was trying to get across was that although I hadn't grown up with the graphical style of FFVI, I didn't write it off as a shitty game because the graphics aren't as good as the later games (which I did grow up with).

I'll concede that *some* people don't like FFVI because of its graphics, either as a product of their rearing on next-gen titles or just being that picky, but there is a certain quality to it that makes the game really shine even if you can't get past the sprites and pixels. Maybe it's the music, maybe the story, characters, setting, or a combination of all it them, but FFVI and older games like it have a certain inner presence that goes beyond graphics, mostly because they had to given the technological limitations at the time. In this case, even though it may not be playable to everyone today, it did give nearly an entire gaming generation a reason to love their past-time, and preserve good memories for years to come, something that you, even as a new-schooler (I don't mean it in a bad way at all, just making a point) can appreciate.

Quote:

Bear in mind though, amazing graphics doesn't necessarily = shitty gameplay.

That's true. People like to use the argument that new games are "all about graphics" to explain the correlation between the rise in picture quality and the lack of game-play or story. It's the same way with movies: "all CG, no substance". There's a balance that many newer games have been able to achieve that blends good graphics and good game-play, but nowadays it's a lot more noticeable when the two ends don't even out. Back in the day, graphics, sound, and even text were limited by the available memory on consoles. Even when a game's graphics were great (for the time), you didn't really have anything else to compare it to. The sound was, even at its best, low-fi MIDI, and the creators only had seven or eight lines of dialogue to get their point across in any scene. These features became less integral when compared to graphics, so there wasn't any way for anyone to even tell if the other factors even measured up. Today, programmer's have near limitless potential (barring time) when making their product: they can have hundreds of lines of text to weave a story, or soundtrack quality music to fit the scene. Suddenly, graphics aren't the only integral part of the process, and when a game's story or game-play falls short of the industry standard, it's more apparent than it was, say, five or ten years ago. The expectations of the public have risen dramatically, and everyone wants each piece of the puzzle to fit.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

There's very few old school games that have stood the test of time. Money can be better spent, and I prefer to have a bit of graphics when I'm playing a game. There's no tossing up the atmosphere that some next-gen games have. Some people insist that they enjoy old school games just to differentiate themselves amongst the masses of gamers.

Give me a break.

I was speaking idiomatically.

The old ideas from even the first great games still hold strong today. I know I throw the name around randomly at times, but there's a reason Geometry Wars Evolved was such a big seller for the 360 (even if it was out during a time of game drought). On a fundamental level, when you give players an objective, an enjoyable means of trying to reach that objective, and a decent enough coat of paint, you're going to have a game you can enjoy. Whether it lasts for 2 hours or 20 hours.

Looking back further, past even the NES, there are great ideas that can still be applied to new titles these days. Competing with a friend in Pac-Man Championship Edition for the top spot on the scoreboard is one of the most memorable moments I've had with video games this year. Old games are great, it's good to be able to still appreciate them. Whether we're going directly back to them, or dusting them off and making them like new.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I think it depends on what we mean by old school. I have systems going back to the old NES sitting under my TV, and I probably play them more than my next gen stuff. I mean, when asked to give a list of my favourite games, it reads like a who's who of old consoles:

Final Fantasy Tactics
Final Fantasy III/VI
Final Fantasy II/IV
Secret of Mana
Dragon Force
Shining Force II
Suikoden I, II, V (last one not so old)
Breath of Fire I, II, V (last one not so old)
Earthbound

I'm gonna stop there, but you see my point. "Old-school" games I think have a certain charm. Even in platformers, I find the SNES to be just very entertaining. Joe and Mac, Super Adventure Island... love those games.

Now, Nall has basically said everything I think on this subject (as the boy has a tendency to do, I've noticed) and I don't have a ton more to add to it. Graphics don't automatically equal a bad game, but they seem to sometimes be more concentrated on by a developer than the story is etc... All I can say is I've been highly disappointed in the modern gen games, and have a lot more old school games I like to replay than I do newer games.

FELIPE NO

Wow Denicalis. Replace Suikoden and Earthbound with Star Ocean 2 and Valkyrie Profile and that about sums up my favorites.

I agree that gaming generally doesn't feel like it used to. I no longer have a working NES or SNES. But I'll never part with my PS1 RPGs which also includes alot of NES and SNES remakes. While there are alot of newer games I enjoy and play, I tend to get rid of them after I do just about everything in them because I know that most the time, I'll never play them again. This especially holds true with how many game series nowadays get a yearly title released.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I've always been fascinated in what we'll see when players list their favorite games of old, Deni. It'd be stating the obvious to say you're a fan of RPGs, but I just did it so we have that out of the way. I'm interested in what you'd say, if you had to say something in response to someone with something like a more PC oriented list of games. Or someone who did a majority of their playing in an arcade.

The things we value as players are vastly different. I see that people such as yourself value experiences crafted by scripted games with gripping stories. I grew up playing RPGs and Fighting games, and eventually I came to appreciate more of the raw game aspects. Whether the competition was going to be worth engaging, balance vs. variety, and level design.

I don't find story to be much of a factor, especially with games like Ninja Gaiden or Street Fighter. I do enjoy being engaged as a player in a variety of ways, and I think that is the greatest part of being able to look back at such a large history of games with the ability to play them to boot. While sometimes our judgment might be swayed by things we've learned to expect or have grown to dislike, it's nice to know that we can share things that other players might not have touched before. To help others understand just where it is we're coming from when we talk about games the way we do.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by JazzFlight

An interesting thing nowadays is that in Gamestops, many PS2 and XBox games are reduced to $5-10, even the top-rated classics.

I've started quite a collection of PS2 games (~280 so far) and I see so many people just brush by the giant bins of "old" PS2 games because they either can't stand the graphics or need to have only the absolute latest games.

This week (Buy 2, get 1 free on used games) I'm slowly working my way up and down each bin and shelf and usually walk out with a hefty stack of games. There are so many forgotten gems that just go by the wayside.

I've noticed this since about the start of the PS2, casual gamers and the industry as a whole are very fickle on how good a game is unless it's staring them in the face, although 280 games? Come on now there's no way those are all must have classics I sense some klepto in you sir.

Retailers base a games worth on age, sales, how much the company wants for it and however much profits they want (Soul Calibur 2 for around £15 or less but something like rumble racing still demands at the very least £20? Wtf) not how good it really is, case in point every movie tie in game ever made.

We can't forget the classic games and what they taught us makes a fun game if this industry wants to avoid getting as stale as most of Hollywood (which it's working on) here's hoping virtual console style features will continue to remind people of that. God forbid there comes a time when 'bad' graphics are frowned apon, to the point of ignored like most people do with black and white movies x.x

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by DarkMageOzzie

Wow Denicalis. Replace Suikoden and Earthbound with Star Ocean 2 and Valkyrie Profile and that about sums up my favorites.

VP would be on my list, though I've never really liked the SO series. There'd be a bunch more on that list, too. Things like Vagrant Story, Chrono Trigger and... well, I'll get to that in response to Rotorblade.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

I've always been fascinated in what we'll see when players list their favorite games of old, Deni. It'd be stating the obvious to say you're a fan of RPGs, but I just did it so we have that out of the way. I'm interested in what you'd say, if you had to say something in response to someone with something like a more PC oriented list of games. Or someone who did a majority of their playing in an arcade.

The things we value as players are vastly different. I see that people such as yourself value experiences crafted by scripted games with gripping stories. I grew up playing RPGs and Fighting games, and eventually I came to appreciate more of the raw game aspects. Whether the competition was going to be worth engaging, balance vs. variety, and level design.

I don't find story to be much of a factor, especially with games like Ninja Gaiden or Street Fighter. I do enjoy being engaged as a player in a variety of ways, and I think that is the greatest part of being able to look back at such a large history of games with the ability to play them to boot. While sometimes our judgment might be swayed by things we've learned to expect or have grown to dislike, it's nice to know that we can share things that other players might not have touched before. To help others understand just where it is we're coming from when we talk about games the way we do.

RPGs are my first love, no doubt at all about that. But as for someone who had a more PC based list? My list of favourite games period would include Full Throttle, Monkey Island I, II, III, and maybe even IV, Day of the Tentacle, LOOM, X-Com series, Planescape: Torment, KotOR...

And as for Arcade, I love me some fighting games, sir. I'm terrible at them. But I am mad addicted to Soul Calibur, Tekken and Street Fighter. Also if they made a new Streets of Rage, I'd probably have an orgasm on principle alone. You're right, we do value different things, but I'm willing to bet most gamers have some cross over love in there somewhere.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

RPGs are my first love, no doubt at all about that. But as for someone who had a more PC based list? My list of favourite games period would include Full Throttle, Monkey Island I, II, III, and maybe even IV, Day of the Tentacle, LOOM, X-Com series, Planescape: Torment, KotOR...

And as for Arcade, I love me some fighting games, sir. I'm terrible at them. But I am mad addicted to Soul Calibur, Tekken and Street Fighter. Also if they made a new Streets of Rage, I'd probably have an orgasm on principle alone. You're right, we do value different things, but I'm willing to bet most gamers have some cross over love in there somewhere.

There are cross over interests in games, no doubt about it. Just funny that what you mention on your PC list was about what I'd expected, no to sound pretentious. When I said PC, I was wondering if I'd see games like Starsiege Tribes or X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter along with the other games you've listed already is what I mean by that.

There are a lot of things we draw the line on as players. "I don't really care about story." or "I'm terrible at fighting games." just to contrast us. Have you ever thought to yourself, "I don't want to be terrible at fighting games. I want to win."?

I remember picking up Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter in a time where I harbored a great deal of resentment toward RPGs. The one thing I remember clearly was that the story and gameplay were so intertwined that you couldn't do one thing without being reminded of either element. You can't waste your time grinding traditionally, the D-Gauge is there to remind you that you have manage your time. I didn't think there was anything RPGs could do differently and the game made me want to start playing them again.

But I fell in love with everything about that game. Have you had any moments upon picking up older games that you hadn't played in the past?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I liked a few games of that type, but I wouldn't put them on my favourite of all time list. However, I'm not sure if I take your meaning on that question. Have there been older games I've picked up and had them make me take a second look at a genre? Not really. Though Bioshock made me take a look at that genre anew. I'd hated it up until I played that. And then Gears of War and Bioshock made me find something fun about it. But an older game that made me rethink an entire genre? No, not really.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by JazzFlight

An interesting thing nowadays is that in Gamestops, many PS2 and XBox games are reduced to $5-10, even the top-rated classics.

I've started quite a collection of PS2 games (~280 so far) and I see so many people just brush by the giant bins of "old" PS2 games because they either can't stand the graphics or need to have only the absolute latest games.

This week (Buy 2, get 1 free on used games) I'm slowly working my way up and down each bin and shelf and usually walk out with a hefty stack of games. There are so many forgotten gems that just go by the wayside.

Wow, you really have 280 PS2 games? I'd love to see some pictures of that.

I'm really fussy with my collection. Unless I absolutely love the type of game, and game itself, I won't buy it. That said, I have about 60 Japanese PS2 games, 20 American ones, and somewhere in the single digit figure of PAL ones. I've always preferred older games, and the newer ones I don't usually get around to trying or playing until they're about 3 years old.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Moon

Yes, the new games have cooler graphics and all, but as a general rule they've seemed to get easier. So the old games for the NES in particular still have massive potential for people wanting a good challenge. Screw how many people you can teabag in Halo 3, you can't be considered a gamer with talent until you can beat Megaman 4 on the console.

You must mean Mega Man 2. That one was the hardest for me.

Looking back at old games is an interesting thing to do. Sometimes, I believe that people are strongly blinded by their nostalgia and the mentality of "back in the mah day." I think the reason that older people find old games better is that new games haven't changed much. And when the experience is fresh and new, it really sticks in the brain. There's nothing I haven't seen in the last five years that I hadn't seen before. It's harder to remember a game when there's nothing new or memorable. However, when you talk to younger gamers, they note that old games are exactly like new games. So, why would they want to deal with the crufty old sprites* when they get polygons? The core gameplay is still the same.

280 PS2 "classics?" I think that's close to probable. Go to gamerankings.com and filter for the top PS2 games. I read through the games and most of them I considered pretty fun at the time. Some of them I'd consider good games, but not classics.

FELIPE NO

What are these old games you speak of? Oh OLD GAMES. I remember old games! Haha, remember when 'platform' games existed? Or how about when Sega actually made games worth playing? Yeah, old games were the best!

How ya doing, buddy?

I still havent even beaten pac man, and super mario world.

Jam it back in, in the dark.