[Classic] This thread contains my reactions to Final Fantasy VI

Originally Posted by Saiken

What I find interesting however, is how fans treat is as some kind of untouchable ideal that cannot be matched.

That's what classic means. Something which at its time was so inspired and so great that it can never be surpassed. Not just something which was great "for its time" but no longer measures up. I can play FFVI now and I still think that it's an amazing experience on par with other RPGs from various eras that I find to be great.

Originally Posted by Saiken

There is nothing wrong with liking it more then later installments, but objectively, they have long since surpassed it.

Do you also find PS2 RPGs to have long since surpassed PS1 RPGs in an objective sense? I've heard some people say that Final Fantasy Tactics is archaic and primitive compared to Disgaea when they say that Disgaea is better. If so, then I can somewhat understand your reasoning, even though I don't agree with it in terms of using it to determine the ultimate value of a game experience.

I don't believe that attempting to build on past concepts means that the new concept will necessarily retain everything that made the previous one great. Also, theory and application aren't the same thing, but if you feel that better technology means better games in an objective sense, then I suppose there's an argument for that.

What you have to understand however is that people have different standards for what defines greatness in a game, movie, novel, piece of music, whatever. There is no universal standard for determining the ultimate value of an RPG. Gameplay versus story arguments have proven that. Even people who claim to have the same standard won't necessarily interpret attempts to meet this standard in the same way. Look at Kostaki and Borg's recent debate over FFIV. So despite your feelings on FFVIII, not everyone believes that the changes made in FFVIII were for the best. They might think that objectively, FFVI or another Final Fantasy game did a better job of presenting its ideas. FFXII has also been the target of much criticism for its own deviations from Final Fantasy tradition. That one I like a great deal, but others believe it to be greatly inferior to their favorites, and I wouldn't presume to tell them that they're objectively wrong. It's difficult to say that one work is objectively superior to another. Especially between works of high acclaim. There are just too many things that factor into how one can evaluate something.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Megavolt

Expect the story to get sadder in a big way, heh heh. FFVI doesn't just taunt you with the possibility like every other RPG does. It actually goes there.

Holy shit. You weren't joking, were you? I just passed that moment. I'm glad I started the game unaware that this would happen. I'm looking forward to searching for everyone.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Saiken

What I find interesting however, is how fans treat is as some kind of untouchable ideal that cannot be matched. There is nothing wrong with liking it more then later installments, but objectively, they have long since surpassed it.

Again, I disagree...None of the other FF's have offered the same variety of gameplay systems that FFVI had. Sure, VI had the all-important Esper system, but it managed to keep the individual attacks for each character (so they're differentiated beyond their limit breaks...see FF7 and FF8) and plenty of armor plus relics and a well-balanced experience system where you didn't have to power-level (but you could!). FF7 was fun and the materia system was better than the whole esper thing, but there was little differentiation between characters. FF8 I felt was fairly broken overall and had little gameplay depth once you figured things out (read: draw like mad, attach spells to stats that are lacking...DONE!). Never liked FF9...The battles never felt smooth enough for my liking. X was more of a matching game, I felt, and I definitely preferred the more standard ATB system as opposed to "hit flying enemies with Wakka, hit machines with Rikku, summon with Yuna if you're about to die..." Mind you, I enjoyed 7, 8 and X, but I never felt for a second they were as solid from a gameplay perspective as VI. Very few turn-based RPG's do. One could argue Ultima could break the game (and Merton was completely useless), but then the answer is simple: Don't get Ultima if you don't want it to ruin the game for you (considering what you have to go through to get it).

And then there's the matter of 3-character battles, a major pet peeve of mine that seemed to become popular in CT then continued through most of the major FF installments.

As for the storylines...Give me the plot-centric but well-spread focus on FFVI's cast over Cloud/Squall/Tidus's various issues and burial of the remaining cast members in their respective games anyday. Poor Quistis...

So uh yeah...Basically a repost from what I said before.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Originally Posted by Megavolt
Do you also find PS2 RPGs to have long since surpassed PS1 RPGs in an objective sense? I've heard some people say that Final Fantasy Tactics is archaic and primitive compared to Disgaea when they say that Disgaea is better. If so, then I can somewhat understand your reasoning, even though I don't agree with it in terms of using it to determine the ultimate value of a game experience.

I have no experience with Disgaea, so I am afraid I cannot make any comparison in this case. But allow me to explain my view of objective criteria in something so subjective as art (this includes books, music, movies, games, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Megavolt
What you have to understand however is that people have different standards for what defines greatness in a game, movie, novel, piece of music, whatever. There is no universal standard for determining the ultimate value of an RPG.

In my opinion, artistic value is comprised of an objective and subjective part. Even in art, there are certain aspects that can be evaluated more or less objectively. For example, there is a question of how much work and preparation was put into a certain artistic piece. In other words, objectively, a Pre-Raphaelite or a Renaissance painting is a more valuable work of art than something created by simply splashing a bucket of paint on canvas, for the latter did not require much skill, time, or extensive work.
But that was only the objective part. The subjective part (such as the way one feels about some work of art, what emotions does it invoke, etc.) is indeed a different matter altogether, and cannot and should not be measured.

In conclusion, what I meant by later FF installments surpassing FFVI, was that they surpassed it in certain objective criteria (more details and work put into storyline, more extensive and flexible battle system, etc.). As to whether one actually likes the later games and their features, that is of course a matter of personal taste.

To GoldfishX:
I understand your view and will not try to argue it, for it would be a pointless argument over personal preferences. But I would like to address one small detail.

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FF8 I felt was fairly broken overall and had little gameplay depth once you figured things out (read: draw like mad, attach spells to stats that are lacking...DONE!).

In FFVIII, Draw is best used as an occasional method of Magic acquisition, not a primary one. Refining is much faster and entertaining, allowing one to get not only better spells, but also weapon upgrades, permanent stat increasing items and so on. In my playthroughs, I rarely used Draw, and that was mostly to acquire GFs and on several bosses with quite rare spells (Aura, Triple).

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Cellius

Holy shit. You weren't joking, were you? I just passed that moment. I'm glad I started the game unaware that this would happen. I'm looking forward to searching for everyone.

Yeah, FF6 is pretty great in that regard.

The GBA port will be something to behold, with its presumably 10x more awesome translation. That added so much to the FF4 story, and will likely do the same for FF6. Can't wait.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

It's a shame that the japanese version has slowdown out the wazoo. I hope they touch it up a little for our release, and that's why it was pushed more than a month back. A man can hope anyway.

I've played better games, but FF6 definitely stood the test of time and can easily compare to some of the better rpgs out there today. I don't think it's quite an "untouchable ideal", though, as the game itself is still marred with plenty of issues. The fact that it might be the easiest RPG I have ever played in my life being one of them.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Forsety

It's a shame that the japanese version has slowdown out the wazoo. I hope they touch it up a little for our release, and that's why it was pushed more than a month back. A man can hope anyway.

Friggin', I was hoping that was just on my emulator. >_<

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Originally Posted by Cellius

Holy shit. You weren't joking, were you? I just passed that moment. I'm glad I started the game unaware that this would happen. I'm looking forward to searching for everyone.

Since you're looking forward to searching for everyone, it seems that you'll like it. What people don't like is that the pacing changes. Instead of being made to play via a forced narrative, the world is open to you and you have to seek out the rest of your members of your own volition after finding the first three. If you care about the characters enough and you enjoy the open-ended gameplay elements, then you're in for a treat. To make things a bit easier, keep in mind that party members which you find again will have their level adjusted to around the level of your highest level member. You have to form three parties for the final dungeon and some folks find it upsetting to have to strengthen characters they don't like. What I did the last time I played was simply to shift my party around as I tackled the various side quests. By doing that you should be ready for the final dungeon. People get too caught up in leveling and the truth is that skills and equipment are much more important in FFVI. Being around level 40 should be enough to win the day. What matters is having some nice equipment and some powerful spells to employ, most of which you get as you recruit the various characters and see them develop more at the same time.

Originally Posted by Saiken

In my opinion, artistic value is comprised of an objective and subjective part. Even in art, there are certain aspects that can be evaluated more or less objectively. For example, there is a question of how much work and preparation was put into a certain artistic piece. In other words, objectively, a Pre-Raphaelite or a Renaissance painting is a more valuable work of art than something created by simply splashing a bucket of paint on canvas, for the latter did not require much skill, time, or extensive work.

Splashing a bucket is such an extreme example that I doubt anyone would disagree. I don't think FFVI is the equivalent of scribbles to FFVIII's Mona Lisa.

Originally Posted by Saiken

In conclusion, what I meant by later FF installments surpassing FFVI, was that they surpassed it in certain objective criteria (more details and work put into storyline, more extensive and flexible battle system, etc.). As to whether one actually likes the later games and their features, that is of course a matter of personal taste.

I see. Have you considered that more details and work put into various aspects also introduces more potential for missteps? Consistency is something that Dragon Quest and Suikoden are valued for because they don't deviate much from their formulas. Sometimes less is more when an aspect becomes so convoluted and poorly executed that it fails to deliver on its promise as the power of the moment is lost. Sincerity and impact often has more to do with execution than with the concept. And execution of a concept is more in the vein of objective judgment I think than judging how ambitious a concept is. Trying for more doesn't mean that you'll succeed at it. And in the process you may lose some of the things that you did right the last time. Someone once said that FFVII having more dialog than FFVI was evidence of objective superiority. But that's judging the attempt and not the execution. If FFVI has more meaningful and better delivered dialog as an objective matter of evaluating the storytelling, then wouldn't objectivity in that respect favor it over the sometimes muddled mess that is FFVII's complex and confusing story? Same goes for character development. I believe that for every game's attempt at providing deeper gameplay or story (which of course should be attempted; for the times that you wind up with something worse, there is the possibility of winding up with something better), sometimes the sweet spot is hit better by games that take a simpler approach, and simplicity is as objectively valid as complexity. Not so simple as to be like Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, but I think Final Fantasy VI is complex enough that deeming it objectively inferior to later installments based on how they have more effort put into them seems woefully inaccurate. After all, it's not so much that there was more effort put into them, but that they had room for more stuff. And it's not only about how much stuff you have. It's how you use that stuff. That's my position on the value of objectivity when evaluating the ultimate value of a game experience.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I am really, really excited for the GBA version to come out. I haven't even bought V yet, because I know I'm just going to put down every other game and play VI when I get it. I love it that much.

VI, I think, is the only FF game where I liked and used all of the playable characters. And this will be the first time I'll actually own it on a cartridge. So...

CELES IS EXCITED.

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Saekin: I thank you for expressing your opinions clearly, but I take issue with one thing: the word "objective". You're saying my arguements are purely subjective and you don't wish to argue that. Fine, we won't argue which is better but I don't think you're being as purely objective as you claim to be. You used two examples above: the work put into the storylines and the battle system comparison as being objective (that is, stating that the later FF's are clear improvements that everyone should take note of) I disagree on both and I feel both are a regression in design, my own personal feelings aside. I think it is easier to write a script based around 1-2 main characters and their entourage (naturally sifted to the background) than the balance shown in FFVI, with no clear-cut main character. The later FF's do have much more dialogue, I give them that, but much of it is still centered around the typical lead character or two. Celes and Locke said far fewer words to each other than Cloud/Tifa, Squall/Rinoa or Tidus/Yuna, but in no way can one objectively say one was better than the other. I remember the Celes/Locke sequences quite vividly, yet am hard pressed to recall more than one conversation between the other pairings. And on top of that

Spoiler:

try beating the game without getting Locke and watch the ending...I thought that was an extremely clever extra touch.

Please reread what I said about the battle system...I wasn't saying "I like FF6's better", I said I felt it was better designed overall and enjoyed it more as a result. It's quite objective stating that FF7, 8 and 10 all lacked particular things that FFVI had and I feel they lost some of their potential as a result. Subjectively, I do like the materia system far more than the esper system, but sacking the individual abilities and relics sets FF7 on about equal footing, if not behind FF6. Subjectively, I did not like much of FF8's systems (I don't seem to recall refining a huge deal) and it suffered the individuality plague as well. Subjectively, I felt the Sphere Grid was a good idea in theory, but fell flat due to having to use it for EVERYTHING and the game's mix'n'match gameplay and limited equipment (sorry, I hated the percentages) hurt it even farther.

And again in all three cases...3-man parties represents a grave regression to me (probably due to memory). Chrono Trigger worked okay with it, due to the team attacks, but there isn't a single RPG I've played where I'm compelled to agree having 3 characters instead of 4-5 (the usual amount for 16-bit RPG's)was the better decision (CT could have been much better with 4-5 characters for example). I mean, a perfectly usable tactic in FFX was to get everyone in on the attack by means of tagging out in order to score more EXP for participating in battle. Why not just add more character slots and save people the effort of tagging out?

FF6 is not untouchable by any means, which you seem to think people think it is...I think Suikoden and Valkyrie Profile have a much better set-up for a turn-based RPG and in some instances, top what FF6 does. However, staying within the realm of Final Fantasy, I feel FF6 is still the benchmark by a long shot and deserves to be the bar that needs to be cleared. Your analogy of a splash painting vs a Renaissance one simply does not apply here (and frankly, seems quite silly in relating it to how FFVI stacks up to the rest of the series).

How ya doing, buddy?

The only thing I wish for FFVI is that it was longer.

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The later FF's do have much more dialogue, I give them that, but much of it is still centered around the typical lead character or two. Celes and Locke said far fewer words to each other than Cloud/Tifa, Squall/Rinoa or Tidus/Yuna, but in no way can one objectively say one was better than the other. I remember the Celes/Locke sequences quite vividly, yet am hard pressed to recall more than one conversation between the other pairings. And on top of that.

Yeah, I have a similar experience. I remember FFVI's exchanges like I just played the game (and I haven't touched it in years). I remember bits and pieces of Tidus/Yuna and pretty much nothing of the other games (but then again, it's not like FFVII had a great translation and FFVIII sucked on principle).

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I feel FF6 is still the benchmark by a long shot and deserves to be the bar that needs to be cleared.

The bar is raised even higher when you consider that the game packed a mighty emotional punch using just those character sprites, text and a few animations.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Originally Posted by Megavolt
I don't think FFVI is the equivalent of scribbles to FFVIII's Mona Lisa.

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Originally Posted by GoldfishX
Your analogy of a splash painting vs a Renaissance one simply does not apply here (and frankly, seems quite silly in relating it to how FFVI stacks up to the rest of the series).

Heh, I definitely did not mean to imply that FFVI was equivalent to a splash painting (or scribbles). I used that analogy to illustrate my perception of objective value of art, and that was all.

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Originally Posted by GoldfishX
I think it is easier to write a script based around 1-2 main characters and their entourage (naturally sifted to the background) than the balance shown in FFVI, with no clear-cut main character. The later FF's do have much more dialogue, I give them that, but much of it is still centered around the typical lead character or two.

I am not sure about that. Which approach is better: giving a large amount of character development to the two main characters and less to others, or giving an equally moderate to the whole cast? Certainly, I too would prefer everyone to be well-developed (poor Quistis, indeed), but I had to choose, I would prefer a first option.

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Originally Posted by GoldfishX
I remember the Celes/Locke sequences quite vividly, yet am hard pressed to recall more than one conversation between the other pairings.

I would say it is because you like Celes and Locke more than other pairings. If that is the case, then it is only natural that their conversations seemed more memorable.
By the way, by "extra touch", did you mean

Spoiler:

the bandana as a good luck charm?

Because I am not sure what you meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldfishX
And again in all three cases...3-man parties represents a grave regression to me (probably due to memory).

Well, this is something that I never considered to be much of an issue. Whether party consisted of three, four, or even six characters (Suikoden), the battle flow and strategy planning seemed generally the same to me. Though I agree with you that Chrono Trigger (due to its team attacks) would have benefitted from a larger battle party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldfishX
I mean, a perfectly usable tactic in FFX was to get everyone in on the attack by means of tagging out in order to score more EXP for participating in battle. Why not just add more character slots and save people the effort of tagging out?

Technical reasons, I suppose. More active characters on a field would require a larger amount of resources, which would mean having to scale down some other effects.

To Megavolt:
Execution is definitely important as well and it is true that an ambitious concept has a larger possibility to fail in it. But is not better to at least aim at something new a more complex, than play it safe and simple? As I see it, neither of FFs (starting with FFVI) had failed in its execution. The later ones however, seem to have more volume and work put into them.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Saiken

I would say it is because you like Celes and Locke more than other pairings. If that is the case, then it is only natural that their conversations seemed more memorable.

You don't know that and the same could be true of your own opinions. And just liking someone more doesn't mean that their dialog will be more memorable. What if memorable dialog plays into why someone likes a character in the first place?

Originally Posted by Saiken

Execution is definitely important as well and it is true that an ambitious concept has a larger possibility to fail in it. But is not better to at least aim at something new a more complex, than play it safe and simple?

Of course it is. I said before that it's better to aim for something new than to be content with what works. And FFVI, for it's time, was not trying to play it safe and simple. In fact, I think that relative to where the series was at the time, FFVI is one of the more ambitious Final Fantasy games. Certainly moreso than FFIX and FFX. FFVI is not so primitive that it can't compete on many important levels with the Final Fantasy games that have come after.

Originally Posted by Saiken

As I see it, neither of FFs (starting with FFVI) had failed in its execution.

Your opinion but not necessarily everybody elses. If I believe that some of them failed in their attempts to execute certain concepts, then I can say that FFVI was "objectively" better. I may also think that the message of FFVI is more meaningful than the teenage soap opera and witch hunt that is FFVIII. Sure, FFVIII has pretty FMVs and it spans four discs, but is the material spanning those four discs as good as the material spanning that SNES cartridge? It's the difference between setting a goal and achieving it. And believe me, I know that setting a less ambitious goal makes for a more easily achieved one, but complexity gone awry is just as bad as simple conformity. I like games which try something different, but I don't always give them an A for effort or execution.

Originally Posted by Saiken

The later ones however, seem to have more volume and work put into them.

And this is the heart of your argument. I'm not sure that effort and filling up space are the same thing. Uematsu himself complained about how the creative effort in the series had been lost and that that was part of the reason he left Square. It's possible for a shorter and less complex experience to be more potent all throughout and leave a bigger impression than a game which drags and doesn't seem to be all that inspired. You stated earlier as an objective fact that FFVI was inferior. Yet what little reasoning you've provided so far hasn't even come close to establishing that. FFVI had built upon earlier ideas and I feel that it hit a great balance enhanced by some innovations at the time. The games to come after have obviously taken those ideas and attempted to combine them with other ideas, with mixed results. For me, FFVI still has the best music and cast of the series, and combined with most other things being pretty good, I think it's the best one based on my overall assessment. People remember the dialog, characters, and music for a reason. A reason that doesn't necessarily need to stem only from the fact that they personally liked it anymore than it has to for remembering anything from other Final Fantasy games. There's more to quality than complexity. FFVI was complex enough to be meaningful but also simple enough to be charming and sincere. An "objective" balance for myself and many others.

More volume is not a reflection of more effort in a qualitative sense. Only in a quantitative one. So while there's often a correlation between trying to do more and better results, correlation is not causation, so your position cannot be established as objective proof of FFVI's inferiority. Not to mention that simply determining how much effort was put into something is by no means a clear cut affair except in the most extreme of scenarios, which is why your example earlier about splashing a bucket only goes so far.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by jb1234

The only thing I wish for FFVI is that it was longer.

And harder! Give the bossess a few million more hit points, and tone down the broken ridiculousness of Genji Glove + Offering + defense ignoring weapons and we're set.

How ya doing, buddy?

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And harder! Give the bossess a few million more hit points, and tone down the broken ridiculousness of Genji Glove + Offering + defense ignoring weapons and we're set.

Eh. I've yet to see an RPG that is difficult without incorporating mindless level grinding (hence disrupting the story and pacing). I thought FFVI had the perfect difficulty level. Not too difficult and not too easy.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Well, after posting in here I felt compelled to progress in the story a bit further. I'm now at

Spoiler:

The Floating Continent

after we find out

Spoiler:

Gestahl tricked us and Kefka kills Leo

I will say this, the random encounters in this game seem like they have one of the highest frequencys of the series IMO (probably wrong though)

I'm guessing there isn't a no-encounters relic in the game (at least early on anyway )

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Originally Posted by Jamma

I'm guessing there isn't a no-encounters relic in the game (at least early on anyway )

You can get a Charm Bangle if you do well enough at the Emperor's banquet. That'll reduce the encounter rate. To get the Moogle Charm, which eliminates random encounters altogether, you have to wait until after the Floating Continent.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Only game to have me counting my pennies for I can RENT it. I think that's all I need to say...

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Originally Posted by jb1234

Eh. I've yet to see an RPG that is difficult without incorporating mindless level grinding (hence disrupting the story and pacing). I thought FFVI had the perfect difficulty level. Not too difficult and not too easy.

Come on now, the bosses in this game are complete push-overs. Not just HP-wise, but offensively there were few bosses that posed any significant offensive threat whatsoever. Most of the bosses were basically meatshields, just sitting there taking all your hits and hardly dishing out anything in return. Making the game more difficult wouldn't have anything to do with "grinding," merely tweaking the balance of the battle system.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megavolt
And just liking someone more doesn't mean that their dialog will be more memorable. What if memorable dialog plays into why someone likes a character in the first place?

One can praise certain dialogue as memorable. Somebody else however, can dismiss the very same speech as completely forgettable. The dialogue itself did not change, the only thing that changed was the perception of it.
It seems reasonable to assume that "memorability" is created by one's mind, based on a complex of personal impressions and perceptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megavolt
FFVI was complex enough to be meaningful but also simple enough to be charming and sincere.

And this is the subjective part I mentioned earlier. "Charm" and "sincerity" cannot be measured by any means, qualitatively or quantitatively. While they may be very important in forming one's overall experience, yet they can hardly be used if one attempts to make a somewhat objective evaluation.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Saiken

It seems reasonable to assume that "memorability" is created by one's mind, based on a complex of personal impressions and perceptions.

Originally Posted by Saiken

And this is the subjective part I mentioned earlier.

Originally Posted by Saiken

I would say it is because you like Celes and Locke more than other pairings. If that is the case, then it is only natural that their conversations seemed more memorable.

Originally Posted by Saiken

As to whether one actually likes the later games and their features, that is of course a matter of personal taste.

Originally Posted by Saiken's Initial Arguement

What I find interesting however, is how fans treat is as some kind of untouchable ideal that cannot be matched. There is nothing wrong with liking it more then later installments, but objectively, they have long since surpassed it.

Please stop your silly subjective/objective nonsense when your initial statement is basically an opinion of itself. You're just crying "WAH! Opinion! Opinion!" everytime someone explains what they like about something (or rather, why they think something was better than something else...There's a HUGE difference between the two you seem to be missing).

About the only thing you've said that can be considered objective (if somewhat inaccurately) is that the later FF's have more stuff in them compared to FFVI. From a dialogue standpoint, this is true...There is far more dialogue in the later FF's and they're far more like an interactive movie in plenty of spots. Objectively, that's fine and FFVI will never compete in terms of pure volume (although I don't recall an apocalypse happening in any later FF). Subjectively, they largely bore me, I find the characters saying the dialogue to be largely uninteresting (rendering their excess dialogue useless) and I found FFVI (and even IV) to have a much better balance of story:gameplay.

From a gameplay standpoint, it's false (or at least impossible to objectively prove). You're arguing that the later FF's have more to them...You can simply look at the amount of sidequests, characters and gameplay systems in FFVI VS them. I mean, you can't tell me the amount of characters in the later FF's was unimportant and still cling to any hope of remaining objective. Objectively, I can say FFVI has a world map the characters can travel onfoot on, something X doesn't have...Is that a good thing or a bad thing? If you can't step into the realm of opinion, you're left being forced to argue that FFVI has something X doesn't have. Hell, FFVI has two entire world maps. Objectively, it dwarfs every other FF...Man, except for V and FFIV, which has three (count 'em: three) World Maps. Objectively, I've said twice already that characters in FFVII and FFVIII lack individual abilities while VI doesn't. It's an endless and ultimately useless cycle if no attempt at subjective analysis is made.

You're puzzled why people hold FFVI in such high esteem...Maybe your objective opinion is just wrong.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Saiken

One can praise certain dialogue as memorable. Somebody else however, can dismiss the very same speech as completely forgettable. The dialogue itself did not change, the only thing that changed was the perception of it. It seems reasonable to assume that "memorability" is created by one's mind, based on a complex of personal impressions and perceptions.

To an extent, yes. However, the greats don't get labeled as such merely because a handful of people found them memorable for reasons having nothing to do with actual quality. There's a craft to dialogue having to do both with the dialog itself and the delivery of it. The irony here is that if anyone's opinion here is subjective by virtue of placing one aspect in front of everything else, it's yours. The perception that more volume equals a superior product based on nothing more than a fleeting correlation. There are objective standards for effective storytelling and effective gameplay. And those standards are not solely based on how complex something is. In fact, I'd say that clarity is more important on an objective level than mystery. It's possible for a simple story to have a complex message. And in taking into account gameplay balance for a videogame, the relative value of each aspect is objectively important. Saying that FFVI has a good balance between how it handles itself on all levels is an objectively valid statement. So give it up already. Your view that more complexity equals an objectively superior product can't be established as fact. You already admitted this yourself when you agreed that more complexity introduces more potential for flaws. Wanting something to be more ambitious is not an objective opinion. It's a subjective one. You can't prove that something is better than something else on an objective level by saying that it's more ambitious. Execution is more important. You feel that neither FFVI nor the FFs to come after have failed in that regard. That means your preference for post-FFVI installments is subjective.

Originally Posted by Saiken

And this is the subjective part I mentioned earlier. "Charm" and "sincerity" cannot be measured by any means, qualitatively or quantitatively. While they may be very important in forming one's overall experience, yet they can hardly be used if one attempts to make a somewhat objective evaluation.

The funny thing is that even if they couldn't, I'd still be objectively correct just in saying that FFVI is complex enough to be meaningful, making your argument against its simplicity a nonissue. But there is something to be said for sincerity as a result of effective storytelling. Charm is part of this as well, though one could interpret it as nostalgia, which isn't what I was referring to.

Now you're just looking for segments to isolate for the sole purpose of discrediting other opinions. Maybe you should be more concerned with trying to prove your own. I'm afraid you haven't made much progress in that regard. I'm not seeing anyone come out and agree with you. If anything, your own credibility is being diminished by your obstinance. It might be wiser for you to make an effort to meet people in the middle without resorting to cheap attempts at painting all opinions in dissension with your own as subjective. Otherwise I'm not impressed by your weak UtopiaNH impression.

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

I mean, you can't tell me the amount of characters in the later FF's was unimportant and still cling to any hope of remaining objective.

That's true. Both in terms of his "more is more" argument and potential strategy in combat. Four characters per battle tends to provide more strategy than three in a battle. The very same kind of correlation that he's been trying to slap everyone with and he dismissed it by saying that it has never been an issue for him. So much for consistency.

FELIPE NO

Just finished it a few minutes ago. The final dungeon kind of pissed me off; it took me a while to get a decent balance amongst the parties but once I found one things went all right.

Spoiler:

The battle with the first statue was extremely intense since that was my weakest party. Holy shit that cracking sound of a boss's defeat is so good to hear sometimes. Sabin was like "fuck you losers I'm done bringing you back to life every turn I want to play with my Genji Glove."

I spent a few hours grinding so I could throw around Ultima whenever I felt like it. Man what a joke that is combined with an Economizer relic! The final battle consisted of nothing - and I mean nothing - but Ultima spells and Cure 3 (maybe a Regen here and there). I would say my party on average was around Level 50.

I haven't fleshed out all of the characters in terms of development. I know I missed a bunch of scenes with Shadow, which I think I can still access if I can make it back to the overworld. I never bothered getting Gogo either.

The Genji Glove + Offering combination didn't prove as gamebreaking as I thought it would; it was still immensely satisfying to see Sabin deliver eight consecutive rounds of 2000+ to those fuckin' dinosaurs in that forest though.

Spoiler:

I have mixed reactions to the ending sequence. The first half was good, following each character as they made their escape from Kefka's castle, but what was with the second half? I would say 80% of that sequence was just the airship flying around and around. I was hoping for a lot of character interaction. It felt dragged out. I was expecting - and sort of hoping - that Terra would die at the end. Not because I disliked her, but it would have really hammered home for me the longterm effects of Kefka's insanity, plus capped off an already sad story.

A phenomenal game, overall. Definitely ranks up there for me on my Final Fantasy list.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Cellius

Spoiler:

I have mixed reactions to the ending sequence. The first half was good, following each character as they made their escape from Kefka's castle, but what was with the second half? I would say 80% of that sequence was just the airship flying around and around. I was hoping for a lot of character interaction. It felt dragged out. I was expecting - and sort of hoping - that Terra would die at the end. Not because I disliked her, but it would have really hammered home for me the longterm effects of Kefka's insanity, plus capped off an already sad story.

This is exactly why it's not one of my favorite video game storylines.

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

The final battle consisted of nothing - and I mean nothing - but Ultima spells and Cure 3 (maybe a Regen here and there). I would say my party on average was around Level 50.

Well, yeah. I think when I did the final battle, just two of my characters had Ultima. However, I had Sabin's blitz and Cyan's sword techs to help me out. It's not one of the harder fights in the series but damn, it has some fine music.

There's nowhere I can't reach.