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My mistake..what I meant to say was that the Gnostic movement was a problem going back to the start of the church. The Catholic Church of today has embraced many Gnostic principle with its embrace of many secret and mystical practices. Many people who oppose Christianity oppose it based on their knowledge of the catholic Church and other organized religions. Yet if one were to follow the biblical precedent there would be no denominations, no priests, no Vatican. The biblical Christian church was an independent local church, governed by locally appointed elders. There was no hierarchy governing the church. Jesus himself negated the need to have a priest or go between, between God and man. We can now come to God directly, because of Jesus. These are just some of the many errors associated with Catholicism.
As to the dates of the Gospels, Supebobby is 100% correct. Not to mention all of the copies and manuscripts associated with the 4 gospels compared to the one copy found of the so called judas gospel. There's nowhere I can't reach. |
Just doesn't make sense.
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Guns don't kill people. Chuck Norris kills People.
Why are you arguing with WoW players? It's pronounced "Shut the fuck up and get a job. Raiding isn't a job." - Lukage |
Where is Corinthians is there any stoning to death of those who don't believe? Corinthians is a New Testament book, all about forgiveness and what not. Maybe you should try reading the book before claiming to know the content.
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
He is GOD. You are a mere human. He owes you NO explanation...and the reason he made some laws that included stoning, was to punish those who did not follow HIS law. What is fair to God...may not seem fair to you . His intelligents level is at a high that you cannot comprhend. Deal with it...There is NO contradiction here.
Even most NON Christian Scholars and Historians will publicly say that the bible is bar-none....one of the BEST sources of History we have for the Middle East. The entire rise and fall of Jeruselm as well the rise and fall of the Babylonian Empire is in the bible. I could go on. The capture and captivity of the Jews in Babylon. Oh...and we can't forget about Solomon and all his wealth. Its ALL there in the bible. The life, kingdom, and death of David (The most respected King in Israel's history). The bible contains ALMOST EVERY bit of HISTORY that EVER happend in the middle east. Non Christian Scholars will agree too. This is not something they argue about. In fact....we are now at a point where the only thing about (Christianity and the bible) that gets argued about is the deity of Jesus and whether he rose from the dead or not. There are multiple NON Christian sources that witnessed Jesus's miracles, and instead accused him of sorcery. That being said, we know that these NON believers witnessed his POWER. I suggest that some of you do some REAL research to the authenticity of the Gospel and the rest of the bible...You' would be very suprised. I was speaking idiomatically.
Last edited by SuperBobby; May 20, 2006 at 07:54 PM.
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What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
FELIPE NO
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In any case, cite for me these historians, if you will? I'm not going to take your word for that, unless you offer me a source.
What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Last edited by Soluzar; May 20, 2006 at 10:46 PM.
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knkwzrd..If you actually ever read the bible, you'd know that ALMOST every place in the middle east is mentioned in the bible. Not just Israel and Egypt.
And yes...that would of ended at approx 65 AD. I don't recall Afghanistan being mentioned though...I'll have to check on that. Soulzar...right now you can find 100s of debates going on because of the Da Vinci code and all that. People are realizing more and more how authentic the bible gospels are, and that the gnostics don't have anything to back their teachings up with. The Gnostic gospels are PROVEN to be written late (some as late as 290 AD). The research is all over the internet, as well as many well respected speakers all over the world right now debating the whole Gnostic thing. Even Non Christian scholars are agreeing with the Christians on the authenticity of the 4 bible gospels. Jam it back in, in the dark. |
There's nowhere I can't reach. "Oh, for My sake! Will you people stop nagging me? I'll blow the world up when I'm ready."--Jehova's Blog
Last edited by Visavi; May 21, 2006 at 01:14 AM.
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I fail to see how this is "relevation" if true could undermind/change Christianity one way or another? Nothing would be taken away from Jesus's apparent sacrafice whether he asked Judas to betray him or not. Unless you're trying to somehow imply that Jesus's death was a suicide? This just make's the Bible a happier story. Jesus not only knew about his impeding doom, he, himself put the events in motion. Possibly to avert a greater calamity.
Then again, I don't know anything. I have my ideas, but I'm a non-believing infidel who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as his personal lord and savior. Too bad. I've heard heaven is swell. :eyebrow:
That's a huge contradiction in your beliefs. Not one you're likely to understand given what you've said thus far. Furthermore, how can you not comprehend that the true message could not have possibly been lost throughout the many translations/mistranslations? After all we don't know if the original words given were the original words written, which are the current words we have. Man is falliable after all. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
Double Post:
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Last edited by PUG1911; May 21, 2006 at 04:09 AM.
Reason: Automerged additional post.
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I was speaking idiomatically. "Oh, for My sake! Will you people stop nagging me? I'll blow the world up when I'm ready."--Jehova's Blog |
Reality check time. God IS above US, and we will never be able to fully understand or comprehend him, whether we are Christians or not. And if you read the bible, you will find that scripture CLEARLY states that God owes us nothing in the way of explanation or reasoning as to why he does the things he does. He is your almighty and everlasting GOD....not some Jo shmoe 2 Timothy 3:16 (All Scripture is "God-breathed" and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness) Sorry, but Jesus did write the whole bible. (In a sense anyway)
The bible itself makes that fact unquestionable. What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Last edited by SuperBobby; May 21, 2006 at 01:30 PM.
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I'm not going to enter this argument, but I would like to advise you on something.
SuperBobby, generally in an argument you should back up your claims with evidence. Simply saying "it's common knowledge that all scholars belive that 99.6 percent of the bible is accurate history" etc... without posting actual links to this information discredits you. Instead of saying "I did a yahoo search and got 200 results on this," maybe actually post a few of these links? I mean, this forum is set up for intelligent, credible debates. FELIPE NO |
"and the reason he made some laws that included stoning, was to punish those who did not follow HIS law" Sounds like you have a pretty good grasp of "God's purpose". As for the universal truth; I was referring to the manner in which you refer to the Bible. After all you believe that the bible is God's word handed down to man, and God is the only absolute truth of the universe.
Ahh, don't listen to me. It's really easy to criticize and mock. I'm just here to undermind and test that faith. I SERVE THE DARK ONE! How ya doing, buddy? |
Jam it back in, in the dark. "Oh, for My sake! Will you people stop nagging me? I'll blow the world up when I'm ready."--Jehova's Blog |
The Gospel of Judas Iscariot would succeed in generating arguments at best. It won't change the overall Faith, but it's bound to raise a few heads and influence legions of Christians to voice their outrage and/or disbelief.
If anything, it'll make Christians turn to their beliefs even further. For all they know, the recent events have already been preordained and they feel their Faith is being tested, so as a result, expect Christians to disprove of these new, "Hey, what if..." statements. But I am intrigued. History does tend to change, and religious beliefs are no different. Only it's just easier for people to keep things the way they are. But is it plausible for the overall view of Judas to change? Yes, it is. Remember, Christians were once the minority. But their numbers grew. While I doubt a minority number of people praising Judas will intensify, it can over time and it can operate. Most amazing jew boots |
I fully Believe the bible as inerrant. As to why Jesus's early life was not in the bible..you'll have to ask God about that, although, there is a quick bit on when he was 12 years of age. Anyway..if God thought it was important for us to know any 'other' details of Jesus's life, you can bet its in the Gospels.
So you can either believe me that I'm just trying to debate or I'm a liar. Either way, as a Christian, I don't rely on lying to get my point across.
It is unquestionable that revelation and john are written in 2 different formats. Lets understand something here. The FIRST 3 CHAPTERS in Revelation are written no different then the gospel of John. The context only changes in CHAPTER 4 and then remains that way. In chapter 4 of Revelation, John is 'taken' in "spirit" to heaven where he witnesses the END TIMES and watches Jesus reveal Judgments on the earth. Now...considering heaven is a spiritual realm and we have NO idea the exact form it takes, we also have no real idea how things will look. John probably had a heck of a time trying to describe what he saw in heaven, because he would of never seen ANYTHING like it on earth. Also, he was in exile. He had to get this document to the Christians without being caught, so he had to write it in a manner that would not make it obvious what he was doing...so he symbolized most of Revelation and wrote it in a different format.
This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
I can see your viewpoint with the John argument, but I'm still going to consider the theologians as well. I'm a non-denominational Christian, just for reference.
http://www.historychannel.com/exhibi...mas/real4.html I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? "Oh, for My sake! Will you people stop nagging me? I'll blow the world up when I'm ready."--Jehova's Blog |
Thanks in advance for the time and effort in enlightening me. I was speaking idiomatically.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
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Type "history on Jews in Captivity in Babylon" into the Yahoo search engine exactly as I have it. The first few pages are loaded with great historical documents.
As for your first point, just do a search on Da Vinci Code debates. You'll have enough info on Gospel authenticity to last you into next year. Visavi...I said "true BIBLE believing Christians." Believe it or not, celebrating Christmas on DEC 25th really has nothing to do with being a Christian. Its an irrelevant point. What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
Also, stop assuming you're the only one who has ever studied religion. I've had 16 years of education with a Christian slant, including bible studies, and I still think you are a twat. FELIPE NO |
And the smaller conflicts do NOT hurt Christianity and its beliefs in any way.
What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? |
I wasn't flaming. The twat comment, when read in context,was just an extension of the main point that you have a very narrow understanding of "REAL Christians", as you put it. Anyhow, I won't be posting again in this thread. It's hopeless.
Jam it back in, in the dark. |
--------- From Wikipedia: Estimates for the dates when the canonical Gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the Gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that, scholars use higher criticism to propose likely ranges of dates for the original gospel autographs. Conservative scholars tend to date earlier than others while liberal scholars usually date as late as possible. The following are mostly the date ranges given by the late Raymond E. Brown, in his book An Introduction to the New Testament, as representing the general scholarly consensus in 1996: Mark: c. 68–73 Matthew: c. 70–100 as the majority view; the minority of conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, particularly those that do not accept Mark as the first gospel written. Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85 John: c. 90–110. Brown does not give a consensus view for John, but these are dates as propounded by C K Barrett, among others. The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition. ---------- Yes, the 4 gospels date back later than most gnostic/non-canon scripture. But keep in mind, most gnostic/non-canon scriptures were BURNED AND DESTROYED by the later-to-be Catholic church since the churches were competing for followers. Comparing dates isn't an appropriate way to judge "truth."
There's nowhere I can't reach.
Last edited by FallDragon; May 21, 2006 at 10:52 PM.
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