Gamingforce Interactive Forums
85239 35211

Go Back   Exploding Garrmondo Weiner Interactive Swiss Army Penis > Garrmondo Network > Political Palace

Notices

Welcome to the Exploding Garrmondo Weiner Interactive Swiss Army Penis.
GFF is a community of gaming and music enthusiasts. We have a team of dedicated moderators, constant member-organized activities, and plenty of custom features, including our unique journal system. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ or our GFWiki. You will have to register before you can post. Membership is completely free (and gets rid of the pesky advertisement unit underneath this message).


An intolerant people named Québec
Reply
 
Thread Tools
TurBoT
Slightly Outdated.


Member 941

Level 3.20

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 6, 2006, 05:00 PM #51 of 73
Originally Posted by loyalist
So you FORCE immigrants into your culture? To be honest, if your culture can't stay alive by positive means (ie, encouraging Quebecosi art, culture and discussion) and you're resorting to outright opression to keep it alive (forcing American, British and other English-speaking immigrants into a school where they are bound to struggle as they learn boht the material and a new lanuage), perhaps it's time for the nationalists to have a long, hard talk with themsleves.
Did you even read what I said loyalist?

First, immigrants from English-speaking countries can get into English school if they wish, that part of Bill 101 applies to people who would have to learn a new language to function in our society anyways. It is not, in any case, opression.

Second, California is doing the same thing (maybe actually worse, when you think about it, since I'm not aware of the existence of a parallel educational system, but don't quote me on that) with its Spanish-speaking population since 1986! Are you going to call English-speaking Californians opressive bigots as well?

While you are at it, you might as well blame Canada as a whole for its cultural protection laws (i.e. Canadian content quotas on TV), since the country is obviously too weak to protect its culture by positive means... Prejudices, knee-jerk reactions and gross exagerations are the worse possible things to do in a political argument.


Originally Posted by loyalist
Goodwill or not, it still happend, and that's what important. I never claimed it was done out of goodwill, I merely claimed that it did, in fact, occur.
We agree on that, I was just making it clear it wasn't only out of her Majesty's goodwill.

Originally Posted by loyalist
Given that it was the Feds who protected us when nationalists came to power, I don't see our situation improving in the...unlikely event of a Republic of Quebec. Nationalists are the kind of people who would kisnap one of their own (an elected official), kill him and mock him in a subsequent communique. Then, two decades later, rig a referendum AND lose. Good luck at meeting Clarity Act standards with that kind of attitude.
The October '70 Crisis is not representative of all of Quebec nationalists, especially now. The FLQ always was a fringe idealistic group: some people may have agreed with their left-wing values and their stance on independance, but that all shattered the first time they killed someone. Do you sincerely think nationalist Quebecers approved the kidnapping of James Cross and the assasination of Pierre Laporte...?

Also, please tell me how the '95 referendum was rigged by the PQ (as I assume you are saying)? I'm curious on what you support this. I heard there was fraud on both sides, but with greater occurence from the No camp, along with grey-zone tactics from federal organisms (I can go search for my sources if you wish me to).

While you are at it, can you tell me how and why did the federal government protect you from the nationalists? As far as I know, the English-speaking Quebecers' situation is far from bad compared to other official language minorities... French-speaking inhabitants of Saskatchewan were forbidden to have French schools until 1995!

And I'm not even going to comment the Clarity Act introduced by Mr. Dion... that's another topic altogether....

Most amazing jew boots
loyalist
Carob Nut


Member 1217

Level 6.05

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 6, 2006, 07:38 PM #52 of 73
Quote:
As much as I don't like Sketch, I'm going to have to somewhat agree with him. While I don't particularly like Bill 101 because it FORCES people to use a language that they may otherwise not want to use, the law does make sense. Also, loyalist, get off your soapbox and take your biggotry elsewhere. You obviously HATE francophones, so just move out of the province already.
When did I say ANYTHING anti-Francophone? I happen to live and work with Francohphones. I just don't agree with nationalists and despise nationalists who seek to impose their will. An accusation of hatred is a very grave one indeed, and, if I were you, i'd lern to hold my tongue when it's appropriate.

I happen to love Quebec, and I do miss her so, as I am attending university in Ontario. However, why should my family and others like me leave he home they love , ignoring the centuries-old multicultural heritage there?

Quote:
The October '70 Crisis is not representative of all of Quebec nationalists, especially now. The FLQ always was a fringe idealistic group: some people may have agreed with their left-wing values and their stance on independance, but that all shattered the first time they killed someone. Do you sincerely think nationalist Quebecers approved the kidnapping of James Cross and the assasination of Pierre Laporte...?
My miswording, and I apologize. I know that the FLQ was definately on the fringe, and that the killing of Pierre Laporte ultmately broguht their downfall due to a washing out of nationalist support.

Quote:
While you are at it, can you tell me how and why did the federal government protect you from the nationalists?
The Supreme court stepping in and forcing Quebec to modify Bill 101.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Last edited by loyalist; Apr 6, 2006 at 07:42 PM.
lordjames
Carob Nut


Member 1690

Level 5.27

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 6, 2006, 08:09 PM #53 of 73
Originally Posted by Turbot
Also, speaking French doesn't forbid us from speaking English (obviously!) and being a part of the global economy (or the continental economy for that matter): as far as I heard, the Chinese and French are pretty good in that, and their population is far from being as bilingual as Quebec's population (about 40% of Quebecers speak both English and French)!
Your points are fair, but Bill 101 does unnecessarily restrict access to the English language for French kids. Kids with French as their mother tongue cannot go to an English school until CEGEP (college studies) while English kids can attend either. We simply have more choice and opportunities than the Frenchies do when it comes to language. Furthermore, our French courses are logically better serviced than English courses at French high schools, considering the political climate. We're further advantaged by the fact that English is the de facto language in business, while French can no longer be considered the language of diplomacy, or even a remotely important one for that matter.

Of course, French kids could always study English after high school, but so many don't actually get out of high school, or don't pursue post-secondary studies, or simply don't care for English and don't think its necessary considering where they live, that they never pursue it. Moreover, we English get the bonus of learning two languages, while the French don't have that same luxury. This gives us an intellectual edge over the French, making us the ultimate benefactors, to some extent. And besides, most of us will leave the province at some point, afterwe've exploited a generous (by no means cheap) post-secondary education arrangement.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Last edited by lordjames; Apr 6, 2006 at 08:27 PM.
Mercury
Flaore la ureque!


Member 525

Level 5.43

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 15, 2006, 04:19 PM #54 of 73
When you really think about it, immigrants coming from another country where they don’t speak English nor French, thus they will have to learn a new language anyway, they would be BETTER OFF learning English than French.

1. If you want to do any kind of business in Quebec, you won’t go far if you don’t speak English. (Most of the business leaders and managers in Montreal are English speakers)
2. English is much easier to learn than French.
3. Later, if they want to move elsewhere in the world (or there kids), it will be easier.
4. International communications are done in English.

All French people in Quebec should learn English for their personal benefit. Really, IMHO, one of the nicest things about Montreal is that when you meet people or ordering at a restaurant or whatever, at first you don’t know in which language to speak, it’s a true bilingual city (on top of the fact that nearly every language in the world is spoken somewhere in Montreal, but that’s another story).

Don’t get me wrong, French is a beautiful language and so is the culture that comes with it, but I don’t think the solution is to force it on people. America is the land of the free, and we are part of America, so I think that people should have the choice, plain and simple. Both French and English should be available in school starting at 1st grade, and each student (or their parents) could choose witch one they take, and we all know that those who will learn both languages will have an edge over the ones that don’t...

For the record: I was born in Quebec, I live in Quebec, and my mother tongue is French, my parents don’t speak English. And learning English has been one of the most enriching knowledge I’ve learned so far.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Phoque le PQ
Présentement en ligne


Member 1886

Level 9.65

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 15, 2006, 08:50 PM #55 of 73
true, learning English is imperative to francophones. However, if immigrants only learn English, they are putting themselves appart from the rest of the province. Yes, the language of the majoirty on the continent is English; nevertheless, they ought to learn french too if they want to live in quebec.

I think it's just a matter of respect; when I go elsewhere in canada, i speak English; when ROC comes here, they should speak french

FELIPE NO
ion
Larry Oji, Super Moderator, Judge, "Dirge for the Follin" Project Director, VG Frequency Creator


Member 5220

Level 3.62

Apr 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 16, 2006, 04:52 AM Local time: Apr 16, 2006, 01:52 AM #56 of 73
Originally Posted by Phoque le PQ
true, learning English is imperative to francophones. However, if immigrants only learn English, they are putting themselves appart from the rest of the province. Yes, the language of the majoirty on the continent is English; nevertheless, they ought to learn french too if they want to live in quebec.

I think it's just a matter of respect; when I go elsewhere in canada, i speak English; when ROC comes here, they should speak french
a quarter of canadians cant even speak english, let alone french ! c'est pas simple comme ca ; on ne peut pas juste dit qu'un immigrante peut etudier un langue et voila ! it takes forever to learn a language.. par exemple je connait certains gens qui ont habité ici pour la plupart de ses vies (ils sont immigrantes) et ne peuvent pas communiquer la langue comme une langue maternale. easier said than done. don't be a silly quebecer !

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Mercury
Flaore la ureque!


Member 525

Level 5.43

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 16, 2006, 10:25 AM #57 of 73
Originally Posted by ion
a quarter of canadians cant even speak english, let alone french ! c'est pas simple comme ca ; on ne peut pas juste dit qu'un immigrante peut etudier un langue et voila ! it takes forever to learn a language.. par exemple je connait certains gens qui ont habité ici pour la plupart de ses vies (ils sont immigrantes) et ne peuvent pas communiquer la langue comme une langue maternale. easier said than done. don't be a silly quebecer !
But still, hearing people talk in our mother tongue when it's not theirs is always a charming experience... but trough an online forum the accent is missing, which is a shame

A quarter of Canadians? Do you count Quebecers in there?

Double Post:
Originally Posted by Phoque le PQ
true, learning English is imperative to francophones. However, if immigrants only learn English, they are putting themselves appart from the rest of the province. Yes, the language of the majoirty on the continent is English; nevertheless, they ought to learn french too if they want to live in quebec.

I think it's just a matter of respect; when I go elsewhere in canada, i speak English; when ROC comes here, they should speak french
I understand what you mean Phoque. It’s true, it is respectful for immigrants to come here and speak French to us.

Think about this, when you go elsewhere in Canada, you speak English right, and that’s good, I do too. Well otherwise, I probably wouldn’t be understood anyway, hehe, and when I find somebody who speaks French outside of Quebec, it’s always a good experience to talk with them in French a little, everybody loves and prefers their own mother tongue, right, because it’s part of them, it’s in their heart, a language is more than a language, it’s a culture, it’s a way of thinking, it’s a way of living, and I’m sure you understand that since your bilingual.

When you go to Spain, Italy, Germany, Romania, Russia or China; do you (or would you) still speak the local language? And it would be a matter of respect there too, I bet you would be well respected by Germans if you go there and make an effort to speak to them in German, they would be glad (if there is any German in the house, please correct me if I’m wrong ).

I believe that you never fully understand a culture if you don’t learn the local language. For example, when I was in High School (about 15 years old), I believed that Americans had no culture, and that was probably due to the influence of my fellow Quebecers that were raised the same way as I was (Americans hatred, or dislike if you will). It was when I start learning English (the American way to speak English) and reading original versions of books by Americans that I realized that Americans had a great culture (some part that I liked and some that I didn’t, but still a great culture), only very different from ours, a very powerful culture, for example Americans see it big, they have tremendous will power, and they worship and respect a “don’t quit” mentality. And then it dawned on me: Maybe it’s not by chance that USA is the number one country in the world right now... And still, I haven’t live there yet, so they are probably of lot of things that I don’t understand today about American culture.

Why am I explaining all this? Well, what Quebecers, what we really want is to preserve the culture, our culture, to keep it going, to have our kids living it, and their kids too, and so on. It’s not really the language; the language is a tool for living it, that’s it. The thing is by forcing foreigners to learn French , it won’t help our culture if those foreigners don’t care, because they will only learn the practical part of the language. They have to learn it out of free will; otherwise it means nothing for our culture, because they’ll resign it as soon as they are “free” to do it.

A lot of immigrants have grow up in places where they were forced to comply to their country believes, otherwise they would be very disadvantage (take the communist party for example). I don’t think we want to repeat that...

And even if it would work? Say by forcing our language on the immigrants, it would make them adopt our culture (by force, or law), what kind of culture would that become? The Quebecer culture is a surviving culture, and we’re very proud of that, and the burden to continue it must be our own, it’s our duty to preserve it by teaching it to our kids and by living it everyday… and that way if it eventually dies, well then it didn’t really deserve to stay alive anyway (meaning it wasn't strong enough)...

And if you ask me, it will eventually happen, it will never die but over time, our culture will change, it will change a lot, mainly because of the immigrants; the mix of everyone will create a new culture, kinda like Montreal has a different taste then the rest of Quebec, and that’s fine, that's part of letting immigrants in, that’s evolution of civilisation...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Last edited by Mercury; Apr 16, 2006 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Automerged additional post.
loyalist
Carob Nut


Member 1217

Level 6.05

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 22, 2006, 11:46 AM #58 of 73
Quote:
true, learning English is imperative to francophones. However, if immigrants only learn English, they are putting themselves appart from the rest of the province. Yes, the language of the majoirty on the continent is English; nevertheless, they ought to learn french too if they want to live in quebec.

I think it's just a matter of respect; when I go elsewhere in canada, i speak English; when ROC comes here, they should speak french
The federa; government requires all of its employees and military offciers to be blingual in order to accomodate the French minority, however, Quebec has no such accomdation for the English minority.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
ArrowHead
Scadian Canadian


Member 2020

Level 20.25

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2006, 08:52 AM #59 of 73
Originally Posted by loyalist
The federa; government requires all of its employees and military offciers to be blingual in order to accomodate the French minority, however, Quebec has no such accomdation for the English minority.
True. In fact, the OLF (Office de la Langue Francaise, Quebec gov't agency that enforces the french language laws) does some pretty underhanded things to try and shuffle English speaking public service workers out of the province.

For example, nurses are required to pass a french language comprehension test every couple of years or risk losing their license. Recently the OLF made the test for nurses to include a lot of mechanical-related things such as asking for the french word for a car's bumper. These were the sort of things that even the best anglo-born nurse would be highly unlikely to know. Not surprisingly, hordes of nurses failed the test.

They were able to reach media outlets and bring attention to what was going on and retake the test. They were also able to get french tutoring tailored specifically for the test. So then the OLF threatened that they would fail them all a second time for cheating.

I shit you not.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Mercury
Flaore la ureque!


Member 525

Level 5.43

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2006, 10:30 AM #60 of 73
Originally Posted by ArrowHead
Recently the OLF made the test for nurses to include a lot of mechanical-related things such as asking for the french word for a car's bumper.
La réponse est: bumber. It's easy.

Seriously, this is harsh, even I, have to think about it before coming up with the french answer...

Most amazing jew boots
Hector
Devil Forgemaster


Member 5443

Level 2.25

Apr 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2006, 12:28 PM #61 of 73
Originally Posted by Mercury
La réponse est: bumber. It's easy.

Seriously, this is harsh, even I, have to think about it before coming up with the french answer...
La réponse est pas bumber mais bien pare-choc.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Mucknuggle
Baby shrink


Member 534

Level 37.83

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2006, 01:44 PM #62 of 73
Hector, all posts in GFF need to be in English. Just letting you know.

French grammar tests suck though - they're so difficult. I hope my advanced French classes at McGill don't kill me next fall/winter.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Hector
Devil Forgemaster


Member 5443

Level 2.25

Apr 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2006, 03:07 PM #63 of 73
Originally Posted by Mucknuggle
Hector, all posts in GFF need to be in English. Just letting you know.
Yup I know that. Sorry for that btw. :P

And yes, French grammar is really hard. I'm a French Canadian and I masterize this language... but damn, I feel you English men who try to learn our language. It's freakin' hard.

It's easier for a French to learn English than the opposite!

FELIPE NO
loyalist
Carob Nut


Member 1217

Level 6.05

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2006, 05:17 PM #64 of 73
Quote:
French grammar tests suck though - they're so difficult. I hope my advanced French classes at McGill don't kill me next fall/winter.
I just got my government rating...C/B/B. Sweet!

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Hector
Devil Forgemaster


Member 5443

Level 2.25

Apr 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2006, 08:20 PM #65 of 73
Are you talking about the "Épreuve Uniforme" in Québec??

Jam it back in, in the dark.
loyalist
Carob Nut


Member 1217

Level 6.05

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2006, 10:58 AM #66 of 73
No, the federal government's test.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
lordjames
Carob Nut


Member 1690

Level 5.27

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 26, 2006, 12:32 AM #67 of 73
Quote:
It's easier for a French to learn English than the opposite!
Not if you've been learning French from kindergarten (sic) onwards.

Fact of the matter is Quebec is a predominately french-speaking province, and to not have even a rudimentary grasp of the language is just plain stupid if you intend to live here.

Or think of it this way: The provincial government spends a couple billion dollars a year to educate French and English students. If English students don't understand French, their chances of remaining in the province decrease. And to stem the losses resulting from this "linguistic brain drain" and preserve a French character to the province, the provincial government institutes mandatory French language instruction so that non-French residents can participate in the larger society, and not be relegated to small, isolated communities or forced to leave the province.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Last edited by lordjames; Apr 26, 2006 at 12:54 AM.
loyalist
Carob Nut


Member 1217

Level 6.05

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 26, 2006, 10:52 AM #68 of 73
A rudimentary undertsanding is a good idea - I'm all for learning French. I just think that things ought to be equal for the English minority in Quebec as they are on the federal level for the French minority. English instruction in French schools, for exmaple,is far below the level of French instruction in English schools.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Phoque le PQ
Présentement en ligne


Member 1886

Level 9.65

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 26, 2006, 12:18 PM #69 of 73
Originally Posted by loyalist
The federa; government requires all of its employees and military offciers to be blingual in order to accomodate the French minority, however, Quebec has no such accomdation for the English minority.
Hum, I have lived in "canada" for 6 months; i never was able to be served in French at Canada Posts.

And this bilingualism was only a façade created by his assholness to make french quebecers believe they could be served in french coast to coast. True, services in English in Quebec might not be perfect... but at least they have never been abolished

Quote:
A rudimentary undertsanding is a good idea - I'm all for learning French. I just think that things ought to be equal for the English minority in Quebec as they are on the federal level for the French minority. English instruction in French schools, for exmaple,is far below the level of French instruction in English schools.
If I look at my canadian friends, their french teaching is as sucky as our english teaching. According to the preceding generation, classes were much harder

I was speaking idiomatically.
PUG1911
I expected someone like you. What did you expect?


Member 2001

Level 17.98

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 26, 2006, 03:41 PM #70 of 73
You do realize that considering 'Canada' to be seperate from Quebec is asinine right? I mean, yeah, your Ontario friends, or Alberta friends etc. would be accurate, but your seperatist attitude does little to help get your point across.

Have you comlained about not having a french rep at the post office? Did you go to a real post office, or one that is just a corner of a quick-E-mart/drug store? Also, I'm not aware that having the option to deal with government issues in English/French means that they must have a person of each language available on hand at all times. Having the option, doesn't mean that it will be immediate. Just like if someone in Ontario wants their government mail in French, they have to make a request to get it in that language.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Phoque le PQ
Présentement en ligne


Member 1886

Level 9.65

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 26, 2006, 03:49 PM #71 of 73
Excuse me? did you look at my name/sig? then you would know i'm not separatist. Besides, most politicians from this province (provincially wise) consider quebec to be distinct

Quote:
Also, I'm not aware that having the option to deal with government issues in English/French means that they must have a person of each language available on hand at all times
In theory, yes; so did trudeau want wrt federal institutions

Quote:
Did you go to a real post office
yes, with the postal boxes and stuff

FELIPE NO
PUG1911
I expected someone like you. What did you expect?


Member 2001

Level 17.98

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Apr 26, 2006, 04:15 PM #72 of 73
Originally Posted by Phoque le PQ
Excuse me? did you look at my name/sig? then you would know i'm not separatist. Besides, most politicians from this province (provincially wise) consider quebec to be distinct
And you've chosen to regurgitate their terms without noticing that it has a seperatist conotation. You can claim to be anti-seperatist all you want, but if you consider Quebec to be outside the realm of Canada then you might want to think about that.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
loyalist
Carob Nut


Member 1217

Level 6.05

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2006, 07:27 AM #73 of 73
Quote:
And this bilingualism was only a façade created by his assholness to make french quebecers believe they could be served in french coast to coast. True, services in English in Quebec might not be perfect... but at least they have never been abolished
What the hell are you taling about? Quebec provincial documents arten't even in English, never mind services...

Most amazing jew boots
Reply

Thread Tools

Exploding Garrmondo Weiner Interactive Swiss Army Penis > Garrmondo Network > Political Palace > An intolerant people named Québec

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Album] J-Pop: An Introduction (and discussion) OmagnusPrime Media Centre 608 Aug 6, 2008 05:49 AM
Expressing feelings about certain people or issues through art Lizardcommando The Quiet Place 2 Nov 8, 2007 10:04 AM
Religion: What it means to you I poked it and it made a sad sound The Quiet Place 833 Nov 7, 2007 07:47 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.