Flying? PLEASE TURN CELLPHONE OFF

Ok... I don't fucking understand why it is so damned hard. When you're on an airplane (you know, those things that fly around in the sky), turn off your goddamned fucking cell phone. You know that buzzing you get when you put your phone next to a speaker? Well, it affects avionics too. Don't believe me? This is from a Turkish Airlines First Office - I'll explain the acronyms if so desired. (Autopilot A and B are two seperate systems for redundancy)

Quote:

Flight TK 459 from ADA-IST - Captain's leg for flight.

The weather at ADA was CAVOK we were using runway 5 for departure and we got to rolling, all systems normal and take off thrust set itself just fine on autothrottle....

then after my V1 call and rotate we took to the air and everything was good too, then the drama starts...

at 400 AGL we are required to select a ROLL mode, i selected Heading for the captain, as we were cleared on runway heading, however it didn't engage, the mcp didn't light up or the FMA or the F/D bars...nothing....so i tried putting on LNAV, same thing.....we continued manual...then at 1000 i tried to engage the A autopilot...that did nothing...B, that did nothing...then at 1500 I tried to reduce to climb power by pressing the N1 button...nothing, tried changing the MCP speed, didn't budge....at this point departure cleared us to MUT vor after 3000, so the captain was flying full manual turning the a/c while the F/D were telling him to continue his heading, started getting confusing....

then passing 7600 feet while climbing to level 260, we asked the Chief F/A to do a cell phone check in the back...she came back with no results....we were slightly shocked....then we were able to put in autopilot A but when it engaged, the VNAV AND LNAV came on all by them selves and the plane dove downwards a little, and then autopilot kicked off.....she started going insane, level change came on by itself, and it pulled the speed back to 171 knots with the flaps up while we were doing 284 so she started climbing at 4500 feet per min, im sure people noticed at the back that something was kinda wrong....i didn't enjoy it....then both EADI flight directors disappeared completely, and the FMA locked on VNAV and LNAV, and the aircraft was telling us to turn in a completely useless direction, the captain kept her in manual, now passing 22,000 feet we were utterly confused, the checklist had nothing, we couldnt use our FMS LNAV and the aircraft was being crazy, then several seconds later i was cross checking the 3 airspeed indicators like MAD because i had no idea which FCC was engaged versus which was we selected and what the damn plane would command us to do....i tried autopilot A again (to reduce the workload so we could problem solve together) it engaged! however, 10 seconds later it kicked off...because...and im glad this didn't happen in IMC...the Captain's EADI flight director was asking for a 20 degree nose dive, and my EADI F/D was commanding a 20 degree nose UP attitude....we just looked at each other....., the altitude warning horn went off at random intervals...and the stress level was a lil higher than usual because we know VERY well flying the -400 that someone's friggin cell phone is on back there, that's the ONLY thing in almost 10 years of TK history that messes up the MCP panel, coming from experienced captains...

so the pre recorded cell phone announcement was played FOUR times, and nothing, then we asked each one of our cabin staff to basically violate people and find the phones.....

guess what.....5 cell phones were on, 2 were text messaging, and one person was playing music and looking for a cell phone tower at altitude to see if it kicked in or not....pax were furious, because we were heading to CAT II airport at the time and we needed these damn instruments for the approach into IST....

once those 5 cell phones were switched off....everything came back to normal, both autopilots came on when we selected each one, all F/D indications came back, the FMS was usuable and nothing went wrong again....

And the stupidity (that's what it is, if you've got your cellphone on during a flight, you're fucking stupid, period.) is worldwide, I've been on flights in North America and Western Europe where cabin crew have had to make multiple announcements for pax to turn off thier cellphones... You think they do it just because they're bored and want to fuck with the passengers? If we wanted to do that, we'll give you some "turbulence" it's a hell of a lot more fun.

So yeah... If you're sitting next to me and I see you turn your cellphone on in flight, I'm going to punch you. No more nice cabin calls asking passengers to kindly turn off the phone, I'm going to come back there and kick your stupid fucking ass. You have no right to carelessly endanger my life, or the lives of the other passengers around you asshole.

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Turkish airlines has one of the worst safety records in the world. I'd take any explanation they had of anyone other than themselves being responsible for their planes fucking up with a big old pinch of salt.

Also lolling at you getting shot by an over zealous US air marshall for causing a disturbance whilst he's bored at having no middle eastern stereotypes to eyeball on a domestic flight.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Shin, first of all, I've never flown on Turkish Airlines myself, but I have experienced problems caused by cell phone interference both as a member of the flight crew (pilot) and as a passenger. I'll give you an example of one of my experiences.

I was on a flight into Kitchener/Waterloo Regional (CYKF), cleared to intercept the localizer (lateral guidance) for the ILS (instrument landing system), I was previously being directed solely by Radar Vectors, being so close to Toronto-Pearson and all, that I didn't notice any problems with the instruments, and they had all previously ground and air checked OK for IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) flight.

I intercepted the localizer as my CDI (Course Deviation Indicator) began to swing in, showing me getting closer (when the CDI starts to move, you are 2.5 degrees off the localizer) to the localizer centerline. I intercepted properly, and let the autopilot take control of maintaining wind correction and tracking the centreline.

I took a quick glance at the GPS, which is actually quite a nice tool for the aircraft I was flying in, most commercial aircraft (including the heavies such as 747s, 767s, and 757s, and older airbusses) still lack an onboard GPS system, rather they rely on INS and IRS installations. (Inertial Navigation/Reference System). INS/IRS relies on integration of data from accelerometers and gyroscopes to proide attitude, heading, and navigation information. So yeah, I looked at the GPS and noticed that I was about 15 degrees off course, but both CDIs (NAV 1 and 2) said I was centred on the localizer. Odd I thought, so I advised ATC, and was cleared to re-intercept the localizer. No joy, the CDIs seemed to centre randomly, we tried everything, resetting them, re-tuning, etc, nothing worked. Just when we were trying to figure that out - the autopilot suddenly commanded approximatly 30 degrees nose down, giving us about 6000feet/min descent - that's a problem when you're only 3000' above ground, and 2000' from obsticals. Like the Turkish FO said, we went back to manual control, and my FO tried to figure out what the hell was going on. We eventually found out that he had left his cell phone on in his flight bag in the back seat - as soon as it was turned off, everything came back to normal, we were able to shoot the approach and land safely.

Some quick facts - on an ILS CAT I (what I was shooting that day) approach, you can descend to 200' above ground without any visual reference to the ground, if the autopilot had commanded the 30deg pitch down at that altitude, there would have been 2 seconds to react before we became a pile of molten metal on the ground - and because autopilot uses trim/stab trim to fly the aircraft, it may have been completly unrecoverable at that altitude.

An ILS CAT II approach (from the Turkish Airlines quote), has a descision height of 50' above ground. No visual contact until you're 50' above the ground - I sure wouldn't even want to risk anything fucking with my instruments then, when there the distance to the ground is less then my wingspan.

Honestly, what the hell is so important that you need to keep your cell phone turned on during flights - I mean come on, the longest flights are only 14 or so hours long, take a break from the damned phone.

Don't get me started about the absolute stupidity of bringing loaded firearms into the cabin either.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I'm not sure I ever want to fly in anything that can get fucked up by a little electrical interference.

You wonder why, though, that airplanes won't ban other potentially harmful electronics if cell phones are really that bad. A guy with a laptop with the wireless card turned on? A poorly made CD player? They say iPods fuck with pacemakers, why not airplanes?

People wouldn't fly on planes if they couldn't take those things and people can fly without their cell phones. Hell, if you need to call someone, use our phone. It's only $40 a minute.

Cell phones may interfere with instruments, I don't know. But they regulate electronic usage so half-assed that I'm not convinced.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by BlueMikey

Cell phones may interfere with instruments, I don't know. But they regulate electronic usage so half-assed that I'm not convinced.

The way I understand it, if the wires that send the data from outside the plane to the meters aren't isolated properly, mobile phone or other microwave devices can mess with the transmitted data, messing up the readings. Electronic devices would also be a problem I guess, but you can't really expect people to switch all electronic devices off.

However, planes are tested a lot (I think once a week? Not sure on that one, but it's a lot), and obviously if they don't pass the tests, they can't fly.

If you're in a plane whose meters mess up because mobiles are switched on, that plane should not have been cleared for flight. Then again I certainly wouldn't put it past Turkish Airlines to fly with planes that haven't been isolated properly. =D

I do think it's a good idea to switch off mobiles though. If only because if I was on a 12 hour flight to LA, and that flight was punctuated with "HELLO I CAN'T HEAR YOU I'M ON A PLANE" calls, I would use one of those "safe" plastic breakfast sporks to take an eye out.

EDIT: Here's why the FCC banned it in the first place: "this ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground". Then again, the FAA adds to that "potential interference to the aircraft’s navigation and communication systems".

I was speaking idiomatically.

Wow that story was great. Loved the extra detail they put in about the plane's controls and modes. I haven't been on a plane since the beginning of this year, but they "specifically" tell you to turn off all cell phones until they give the say so. They say it for a reason, not just cause their best friend got blown up by one in WWII and they are anti-cell phone freaks... jesus people... -__-

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Originally Posted by Zigan

They say it for a reason, not just cause their best friend got blown up by one in WWII and they are anti-cell phone freaks... jesus people... -__-

There's actually no definite reason why they do it, actually.

There has been no definitive study to link cellphones (or any other electronic device,) to avionic interference. The best that's been shown is that it's marginally possible that they could interfere, but remember, the key word here is "marginal."

I think it's entirely bullshit, the claims they make. If someone's cellphone in their pocket can "interfere" with their equipment, well, uh, what about all the radio waves of all different frequencies flying about outside the aircraft? There's a lot more interference outside of the aircraft than on the inside.

In the end, there's more evidence showing that it's just for various companies to save money than it is about anyone's safety.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by BlueMikey

I'm not sure I ever want to fly in anything that can get fucked up by a little electrical interference.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

There isn't any proof of what cell-phones do to a plane, but cell phones transmit on different frequencies every time a new model comes out. To be honest, I think the FAA is just saying "better safe than sorry" and everyone followed suit. My cell phone makes my bulky monitor flicker and buzz if it's near (particularly if I'm receiving a call and it's ringing), but it doesn't do that around *everything*.

I'm skeptical, but folks want to be thorough and piss themselves easily. As a result, people encourage passengers to turn off cell phones.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by surasshu

The way I understand it, if the wires that send the data from outside the plane to the meters aren't isolated properly, mobile phone or other microwave devices can mess with the transmitted data, messing up the readings. Electronic devices would also be a problem I guess, but you can't really expect people to switch all electronic devices off.

However, planes are tested a lot (I think once a week? Not sure on that one, but it's a lot), and obviously if they don't pass the tests, they can't fly.

If you're in a plane whose meters mess up because mobiles are switched on, that plane should not have been cleared for flight. Then again I certainly wouldn't put it past Turkish Airlines to fly with planes that haven't been isolated properly. =D

First of all, adding insulation to existing wiring (remember, MILES or wiring inside a modern airliner), would add ALOT of weight, more weight means less fuel, decreasing range. Also more airframe weight would decrease the available payload, meaning that the operator would loose more money, so I don't see it happenening anytime soon.

And FYI, Airplanes are usually inspected based on operating hours (air time), and/or cycles (takeoff and landings). To retrofit every aircraft in service would be a multi-million (read hundreds of millions) dollar operation.

Originally Posted by surasshu

I do think it's a good idea to switch off mobiles though. If only because if I was on a 12 hour flight to LA, and that flight was punctuated with "HELLO I CAN'T HEAR YOU I'M ON A PLANE" calls, I would use one of those "safe" plastic breakfast sporks to take an eye out.

EDIT: Here's why the FCC banned it in the first place: "this ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground". Then again, the FAA adds to that "potential interference to the aircraft’s navigation and communication systems".

And I have personal experience with cell phones affecting navigational performace, it could have killed me and the others on board.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

There's actually no definite reason why they do it, actually.

I tell my passengers definitivly that if they turn on a cell phone (I don't know about other electronic devices), then there is a good chance that it will fuck with the systems on board - because it has happened to me before.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

There has been no definitive study to link cellphones (or any other electronic device,) to avionic interference. The best that's been shown is that it's marginally possible that they could interfere, but remember, the key word here is "marginal."

Did you read my second post at all? I'd hardly call that marginal interference, I wasn't even close to being lined up with the runway, if I didn't have GPS, and ATC wasn't paying too much attention (which happens ALOT), I could have hit an obstical. Airplanes arn't like cars bud - you can't just stop and pull over and figure things out. If something is wrong, then it will kill you if you don't treat it with respect.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

I think it's entirely bullshit, the claims they make. If someone's cellphone in their pocket can "interfere" with their equipment, well, uh, what about all the radio waves of all different frequencies flying about outside the aircraft? There's a lot more interference outside of the aircraft than on the inside.

As I mentioned before, I have personally had a cell phone fuck with my avionics while in flight - no other electronic device has done that. I think the major problem is that the cell phone is in such close proximity to electrical wires - you don't get interference on your speaker/CRT monitor from all the other frequencies, yet as soon as you're about to get a phone call, you get the all-too-well-known interference from the phone making the connection.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

In the end, there's more evidence showing that it's just for various companies to save money than it is about anyone's safety.

Well this is how the world has always worked - money makes the world go around.

So I just want to get this straight - just because you have no absolute proof,or personal experience like I have, you won't turn off your cell phone on an aircraft, because you don't think there is any basis behind that rule... Pretty fucking stupid if you ask me. You can't honestly believe that you are that all-fucking-knowing that you will know that your phone will have absolutly zero effect on the avionics.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I personally think it's as silly as phones being forbidden at gas stations.

Either way, newer phones, including mine, have this:



This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I fly from Portland, OR to Burbank, CA something like four times a year. They tell us to turn off the phones but they don't explain WHY. I'm sure if they clearly stated why it was important most people would respect this rule, rather than just treat it like the theater situation, where it really isn't that big of a deal.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Are people seriously that ignorant to actually text on a plane? Honestly, who gets reception at that kind of height?

You're on a plane for a small amount of time (maybe more) I'm sure you can LIVE with out texting for a couple hours. If you're willing to put people at risk just to say "wht's up? omg, inbd!", you're one ignorant mother fucker.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Locke

First of all, adding insulation to existing wiring (remember, MILES or wiring inside a modern airliner), would add ALOT of weight, more weight means less fuel, decreasing range. Also more airframe weight would decrease the available payload, meaning that the operator would loose more money, so I don't see it happenening anytime soon.

I have it on good authority (a VP of flight operations) that all wires on any remotely modern plane are shielded. It's true that older models may not have protected wires, and if that's the case they wouldn't add it. But no commercial airliner will fly a plane without shielded wires (except Turkish Airlines, apparently, which I'm duly warned against). RF signal can't mess with cockpits with shielded wires, and the reason why shielding your wires is a good idea should be pretty obvious even without mobile phones.

But like Chaotic says: you're only in the air for 20 hours at most. Just switch the damn things off. Too much cellphone will turn your head into a carrot. D:

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Reminds me of the time an aircraft of one of my customers went AOG because a screen projector went whacko during landing when one of the boarding customer tried to call their relatives to let them know he/she was landing. Don't know if the screen projector going whacko had anything to do with the cell phone call but it wasn't fun for me trying to expedite a part to ship in a day where it takes 3 months to manufacture and there's nothing available on the surplus market for at least 4 days.

Note: AOG means Aircraft On Ground-- the aircraft literally cannot fly with the current condition it is in. Now, whether the aircraft was actually going to be grounded due to the unavailability of the screen projector, that's unbeknownst to me, but it was sure one hell of a week for me trying to buy a part a customer wants yesterday, when it wasn't available until next Monday. Makes for one hell of a sour weekend not being able to rest easy not knowing if the shipment I'm looking for is going to ship or not.

How ya doing, buddy?

People don't listen to announcements either. They ask you to put away all electronic devices prior to landing, so what exactly makes people think that cell phones are exempt from that list? I mean, once the plane stops, you can call whoever you need to call. Calling them in the air isn't going to get them there any faster, since you can't call them to begin with.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I like to wear headphones during takeoff/landing since I feel like it helps with the popping of my ears and it helps drown out the babies crying behind me. I've only had one or two stewardesses remind me to turn off my electronic device (since then I keep the jack sitting on my lap so they'll usually see it's unplugged first).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

So... Is it just cellphones that screw around with an airplane's wires or all electronic devices? I'm inclined to say just cellphones or other devices that transmit electromagnetic signals but I remember being told to put away my iPod while on the plane one time by an attendant which at the time struck me as being absurd.

As for cellphones and the people who refuse to turn them off, we're dealing with the same kind of people who leave their cells on during tests or in the classroom and other people who simply have trouble listening and following basic directions, lets not be so harsh on them ya? God forbid they don't text message their friends and loved ones for any extended period of time, it just might cause then to breakup or some other unspeakable tragedy.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Quote:

I'm not sure I ever want to fly in anything that can get fucked up by a little electrical interference.

You wonder why, though, that airplanes won't ban other potentially harmful electronics if cell phones are really that bad. A guy with a laptop with the wireless card turned on? A poorly made CD player? They say iPods fuck with pacemakers, why not airplanes?

It occured to me that many people aren't really all that educated on how EMI works. I'm not singling you out, Mikey.

First of all, your CD player has a low intensity, narrow bandwidth, tight beam "transmitter" or, basically, a laser. It's not on the same frequency or emitting at a high enough power level to interfere with instrumentation (Much less than one watt, I believe).

Furthermore, electronic devices can interefere with each other in two ways: their power source/circuitry and if they transmit radio/microwave/infrared. Typically, something you plug into the wall is going to have a magnetic field that is constantly oscillating at 60hz, unless properly shielded (it might be different depending on what part of the world you live in, different countries have different standards). These oscillations can cause interference in the 60hz range in the EM spectrum. Nothing I can think of off the tope of my head actually operates on this frequency, however, should the oscillations be strong enough (have enough energy behind them) like, say from a 76,000 volt line (which is common in major cities) it can create serious issues.

Cell-phones (GSM and 3G standard typically operate at about 900mhz, 1800mhz and 3.6Ghz), Blue Tooth, 802.11b/g standard wireless devices and such TX at about 2400MHz (2.4 Ghz), which would be about the same frequency as a lot of the instrumentation in question. With the exception of accelerometers and radar altimeters (which typically operate in the 9Ghz range). These devices don't transmit at huge wattages, but 3 or 4 watts is enough power to carry a signal like 20-some miles in the right conditions.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Since I've little understanding the ways of "GSM and 3G standard typically operate at about 900mhz, 1800mhz and 3.6Ghz" or "TX at about 2400MHz (2.4 Ghz), which would be about the same frequency as a lot of the instrumentation in question. With the exception of accelerometers and radar altimeters (which typically operate in the 9Ghz range). These devices don't transmit at huge wattages, but 3 or 4 watts is enough power to carry a signal like 20-some miles in the right conditions" any of that craziness (sorry to have to quote you, Duo ), how does, say a PSP fit into the picture?

I realize that it has a wireless network card in it, but I wanna be a little more specific about ad hoc mode. I assume all ad hoc does is try to detect another PSP and that it ignores anything else broadcasting or receiving a signal. So how does ad hoc mode affect airplanes?

I ask cuz I'm going on vacation in the next couple weeks (flying to Kansas City, MO to see Dad and the relatives) and had planned on bringing my PSP and playing it on the plane, among other places.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Yggdrasil

So... Is it just cellphones that screw around with an airplane's wires or all electronic devices?

I'm no expert in this, but it is anything that contains a magnet. I.e. devices that use speakers. As for devices that don't I'm not sure.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Well, I guess I am glad I don't have a cellphone, or fly very often. So, you are safe with me if I ever end up beside you on a flight

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Winter Storm

I'm no expert in this, but it is anything that contains a magnet. I.e. devices that use speakers. As for devices that don't I'm not sure.

Its not the magnet that creates interference. Anything with an antenna that directs electromagnetic or electric waves (for short wire antennas) has the potential to affect signals in unshielded systems surrounding it.

How ya doing, buddy?

Something happed that made me think of this thread - I'm going through my briefing, and someone's phone rings - I stop the breifing, and ask the gentleman to turn the phone off, "Hold on, this is important - it'll just be a second."

Grr... I don't personally care if it's going to be a second, a minute, or fourty fucking hours - turn the goddamned phone off before you get to the plane, as the announcement says - It's not my personal rule, but it's a good fucking idea. There's tons of things that can happen when you are walking towards the fucking plane, walking off the dock into the water (seen it happen), walking into a spinning propeller (just about seen that happen), trip and fall and get hurt (seen that happen), etc... Just take a break from the phone.

And it's not just for interference - the last thing we need for passengers is to be distracted during an emergency because of thier phones - jesus people, don't try to call someone from inside of a plane when it has crashed - get the fuck out already - I don't want to drag your sorry ass out of the plane because you are on the phone.

Also - it's the law. Not just my law, not just the companies law, but federal, you-go-to-jail law. Jesus people, come the fuck on.

How ya doing, buddy?

Locke, spread your interests out. Seriously.

Jam it back in, in the dark.