[PC] World of Warcraft

Originally Posted by dagget

Let them learn and manage multiple raids, get everyone geared up faster.

Xi pretty much summed up my thoughts on the "two raids" idea.

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Who decides who goes in each raid, who leads the raids, how many people do we need on standby for each raid, what kind of class stack do we need for the encounters, how many people do we recruit to deal with the challenges ahead, what happens when group B's tanks are online, but they don't have enough priests, and A has priests, but no tanks. And by the time we're done separating people into 2 categories, we might as well be 2 completely fucking separate guilds.

Casuals are cackling with glee but they don't really see the full picture. The 25 player limit does not benefit casuals. Raids will still take hours of work and hours more outside raids to farm raid materials. The only thing this does is split guilds that have been raiding as a 40 man for two years. I don't play because WoW itself is fun. I play because I enjoy raiding with the 39 other people I've met and become very good friends with over the course of my playtime. If the explodes because half of it can never get into the A team I no longer have a reason to play.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I know exactly what Six Machine is talking about. It will probably fuck up 40 man guilds. The smaller, more dedicated ones.

Same with the guild I was in, we always had like 60 signups and only 40 could be selected, with a few spares in case people had to go early, by lowering the spaces to 25 your in even bigger problems. People will get tired of it eventually and reform or quit. Seen it all too often.

Making a second group...no. It's plausible in theory but will never work out that way, your never gonna have the exact classes you need for the second raidgroup, and if it is it's usually a crappy leftover raid. I've seen it all the time with the 20 man raids.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Six Machine

Xi pretty much summed up my thoughts on the "two raids" idea.




Casuals are cackling with glee but they don't really see the full picture. The 25 player limit does not benefit casuals. Raids will still take hours of work and hours more outside raids to farm raid materials. The only thing this does is split guilds that have been raiding as a 40 man for two years. I don't play because WoW itself is fun. I play because I enjoy raiding with the 39 other people I've met and become very good friends with over the course of my playtime. If the explodes because half of it can never get into the A team I no longer have a reason to play.

I like how everyone assumes that all people who play casually think the same. This is the same, sad-ass response I've seen past few days on the wow forums.

It's raiding. DURR with just 25 instead of 40. Why are people so hellbent in thinking this is going to destroy guilds? Just because someone can't raid 40-man it's an automatic lose situation. What about ZG and AQ20? Those aren't 40 man, but they're still difficult to those who first start the encounters in there, not people who go in after they're in a guild that has it on 2 hour farm status. It takes time and effort to get things this way. This is everything the hardcore raiders have been telling people like me. "You need to work to get your epics, time and effort." So now magically I can't comprehend this "time and effort" when it's actually balanced out to where I can now enjoy content and possibly become geared in stuff from these new instances, unlike MC/BWL/Naxx (WHICH WILL STILL REMAIN 40 MAN) because I run a smaller guild.

All this does is allow for the guilds with smaller people, that want to experience end content, but dont' want to deal with the drama of a huge raiding guild.

The high school drama queen crap about breaking up guilds is getting to be rather old. Everyone acts like they have to "fire" people now. This isn't a job, and this isn't the end of the world.

And yes, I understand all too well, I was actually in a raiding guild once before I left because I couldn't stand the drama over everything in it. Geting 40 people sucks to get together, 25 people aren't going to suck as bad.

I'm sure Tigole and Furor will bring out a 40 man raid instance just for "ZOMG HARDCORE ELITE ASSFUCKS" who are doing the biggest crying in right now, because they're scared that they will be stuck with the "b-team" if their guild decides to break up into 2 guilds that run these instances. This is the true test of guild friendships. I see it as progression, as do alot of full-time hardcore raiders as well. (I'm a weekend raider now :P)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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What about ZG and AQ20? Those aren't 40 man, but they're still difficult to those who first start the encounters in there, not people who go in after they're in a guild that has it on 2 hour farm status.

They are a side instances to the 40 man raids. If your guild is a raiding guild you can do ZG/AQ20 and have a ton of people sit out because they either 1. don't care or 2. don't care because Naxxramas is the next day. Difficulty has nothing to do with it.

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All this does is allow for the guilds with smaller people, that want to experience end content, but dont' want to deal with the drama of a huge raiding guild.

Just because the content is 25 man doesn't make it any easier. The new guilds forming for these instances will be exactly like the current ones only with less people. You'll still have DKP, tons of farming for mats, drama, etc. As I've said before, this does next to nothing for casuals. Illidan will still be killed by hardcore raiders relatively shortly after release and by casuals about two years later.

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The high school drama queen crap about breaking up guilds is getting to be rather old. Everyone acts like they have to "fire" people now. This isn't a job, and this isn't the end of the world.

If you're in a raiding guild one can assume you play the game to raid. Let's say you made the guild right at release and spent a lot of time recruiting, gearing people up, etc. Now you have probably 80-90 players and can fill a 40 man whenever you please. Now you suddenly find out 40 man raids are obsolete and 25 is the new standard. You now have about 40 extra people in your guild. Whether you "fire" them or not, they're going to eventually leave because they want to raid and yet can never get in one. We usually have upwards of 6 priests online with more who could potentially be online. When BC comes out and I can only invite three to each raid, how long do you think the rest are going to want to stand around with their thumb up their ass before they leave to join/create another guild? Also, as Xellos said, in theory running two raids would work. In practice I guarantee it never will.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Ok, I'm going to ask this and be just as polite as I can be:

WHO FUCKING SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING EASIER?!?!

I hear all this horseshit about people going "LOLOL IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EASIER."

DUUUUUUUUUUH. Yeah, uh no shit. Everything is going to be difficult when first experienced. It takes time to learn, much like everything else did.

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Illidan will still be killed by hardcore raiders relatively shortly after release and by casuals about two years later.

And the problem with that being...? Oh I get it, it won't be enough. Let's see. MC was out at release. People downed that and wanted something more. Blackwing Lair came out. that got farmed fast, people wanted more. Zul'Gurub came out "Need more 40 man plz" AQ came out. "boring. DONE. next" Naxx is out. In that time frame, exactly what has been released for people who are in smaller guilds but don't have the numbers to run MC on their own? Oh Dire Maul.

Bottom line, is... IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL. People are making it like Blizzard has personally shit on them. If you're worried about who you're going to cut from your guild, because it has to be only the "ELITE BEST PLAYERZ" now in the guild (because you know, it's impossible to have an A-Team and B-team in a large raiding guild, that has shit on farm status for their alt's alts.) then maybe these friendships just aren't as "tight" as people once thought.

Every excuse I've seen boils down to people are scared that one 25 man run are going to get geared faster than the other 25 man run in a huge guild, or someone will be stuck with someone that they don't like. It's just drama bullshit, that's all it ever is with this game.

So what if the instances are 25 man capped in TBC? It's not for the true "casualer" player anyway (which the word casual has seem to be thrown around in the typical misused fashion again :\ ) but for those who have small guilds of 15-20 people of close friends, and don't want to go to a bigger guild while wanting to experience content.

I know the hardcore people are going to tear through these places. t just baffles me taht everyone knew the expansion was going to be catered to the non-hardcore raiders. When it's announced what it entails, people are acting like bitches about it. :\

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by dagget

DUUUUUUUUUUH. Yeah, uh no shit. Everything is going to be difficult when first experienced. It takes time to learn, much like everything else did.

And time is what casuals whine about not having. The basic point is that this is a change geared towards pleasing the majority of the WoW fanbase (casuals, non-raiders, whatever you want to call them) and yet it does next to nothing for them. All it does is screw over raiders who have been the most consistant group of players since release.

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And the problem with that being...? Oh I get it, it won't be enough. Let's see. MC was out at release. People downed that and wanted something more. Blackwing Lair came out. that got farmed fast, people wanted more. Zul'Gurub came out "Need more 40 man plz" AQ came out. "boring. DONE. next" Naxx is out. In that time frame, exactly what has been released for people who are in smaller guilds but don't have the numbers to run MC on their own? Oh Dire Maul.

WoW was released with one 40 man and many smaller dungeons. To even the playing field ZG, BWL, AQ, and Naxxramas were in production during beta and up until their respective releases. ZG was even changed from a 40 man to a 20 man to appease casuals.

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Bottom line, is... IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL.

To you it wouldn't be. You don't really strike me as a raider so this really doesn't effect you. What you're not seeing if how this impacts those who have been working through endgame content since release. If Blizzard had made the max raid cap 25 people from the start nobody would have a problem right now. Instead they decided to change the rules halfway through and in doing so have alienated most of the raiding community. Raiders aren't pissed off because they're afraid casuals will beat bosses and get phat loot or whatever. Raiders are pissed because they're going to have to sit out half their guild.

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If you're worried about who you're going to cut from your guild, because it has to be only the "ELITE BEST PLAYERZ" now in the guild

Once again, it's not about cutting people. Whether a guild is close-knit or not, nobody pays a monthly fee to sit around with their thumb up their ass. If they rarely get to raid they will eventually leave to find a place where they can or quit the game.

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t just baffles me taht everyone knew the expansion was going to be catered to the non-hardcore raiders. When it's announced what it entails, people are acting like bitches about it. :\

Most raiders assumed that Blizzard learned from their mistakes with casuals and would balance content from the beginning in the expansion. To our dismay, they did the exact opposite and in a knee-jerk reaction have royally fucked raiding guilds in the ass.

FELIPE NO

So.. it's ok to fuck people over for a year and a half, because they aren't in raiding guilds, but now that the do level caps, it's not ok? Because those people are raiders?

Please, try to help me understand this. From what i've seen posted and discussed:

A. Now all raiding guilds magically have only 40 people in their guild MAX, that raid with them everynight. They don't have 41 members or 60 people in their guild. It's all down to 40 people in the guild now. (despite some saying that they have anywhere from 50-60 people online at any given raid night) What happened to the other ones who were online and told "Sorry, everyone's here. We don't need you to be online." ?

B. Now it's about friendship, when half the people in a raiding guild could care less who's in there as long as they have 40 people on and can raid. (Not all guilds are like this, but I have seen some that are.)


I am so fucking sick of everyone always assuming the casual base and what they want, no really, I am. I play casually. Why? Because I hate the rules and bullshit that goes on in high-end raiding guilds. I chose not to go to one (even being offered to join them) Why? Because I don't need that headache. But because I chose to not go to one, I'm not allowed to see the new content because "lol u don't raid naxx so ur casual and will never set foot in these places" Assumptions are nice aren't they?

The point of this was to make content better accessable to those who don't have the time nor care to join a raiding guild, and are in a smaller guild of friends. Now that it's been out there, all the major elite e-peen infested raiders who think gear and epix are more important than anything else (the whole "he who has the epix first is god" mentality) are the ones getting bent out of shape over this. So they start feeding lines "It'll still be too hard for you casual assholes" and "You'll never see this content." Sounds pretty much like a cop out because there aren't any 40 mans planned after the expansion for some time. :\

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WoW was released with one 40 man and many smaller dungeons. To even the playing field ZG, BWL, AQ, and Naxxramas were in production during beta and up until their respective releases. ZG was even changed from a 40 man to a 20 man to appease casuals.

This arguement is so old, it's not even funny. When ZG first came out "lol you'll never PUG it" 2 months later "LFM ZG" AQ20 isn't pugged yet, but that doesn't stop from a group of allied guilds to make runs around it. Pleae tell me what dungeons were added after Dire Maul for people who have done nothing but cleared and farmed out of the hell of Scholo/Strat/Blackrock Spire? Hell, I'll even throw ZG in there now. There haven't been.

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To you it wouldn't be. You don't really strike me as a raider so this really doesn't effect you. What you're not seeing if how this impacts those who have been working through endgame content since release. If Blizzard had made the max raid cap 25 people from the start nobody would have a problem right now. Instead they decided to change the rules halfway through and in doing so have alienated most of the raiding community. Raiders aren't pissed off because they're afraid casuals will beat bosses and get phat loot or whatever. Raiders are pissed because they're going to have to sit out half their guild.

Uh, hello. They changed the rules halfway anyway. They just went back in the direction that they promised the game was going to be in the first place. I bet if they changed it to 45-50 people raids, there wouldn't be a problem. No. Because that's "MORE PEOPLE TO RAID!!!" I mean really, that would have pissed me off to see a 45+ man raid instance be put in, but I would not act likes it's the end of the world. But now with the lower cap and more people actually having a chance at content they couldn't because of leaving their friends and everyone behind to further advance their character, it's the "end of the world." Sorry, but I have friends too. And because I'm not "super leet hardcore" enough to have a guild with 40+ member and raid 5-6 nights a week, I lose said friends to guilds like yours because they like dipping in the smaller guilds. Offering people in there runs, giving them a few pieces of gear here and there. Offering them that this is what they can get. But when they leave and join, they find out "sorry, waiting list on raids." and 9 times out of 10, they don't gear anyone up but their A-Team of 40 people and won't gear anyone else up until the A-team's alts, alts are geared up.

Now's not the time to for some guilds to start having a "heart" for their players, when there are people in that guild who do nothing but sit on their ass, hoping that they can get in a raid. Hoping an A-Team member doesn't show and it's their turn on a list. To most guilds, those people are nothing but filler. Also if that douchebag from DnT wants to leave and throw a temper tantrum like Furor (which is what he's doing) because now there's no content to make him better, as well as about 4 upgrades higher in terms of gear, than a person who plays like me, then he's nothing but a fucking baby. Plain and simple.

The non-raiding/casual/casual raiders wanted content to fit them. They got it and now it's one big emo My Space about "friends" now. The really true and genuine hardcore players have seen past this. They see if as a new oppertunity for some people who feel left out in their raids to be able to join in and become equal to them. The ones who are fucking loot whoring whiners who think they deserve everything first, fast and the only person in the world to have it, are now screaming about "friends". Friends that they've probably made while screwing other friends in a smaller guild over.

Sorry man, but with all the whining I've seen the past few days on the WoW forums, this is this gist of it. I understand that it's going to suck to organize 2+ 25 man raids. But most raid leaders hate organizing 40 (I know some who do, and I know it's a headache myself) they see this as a blessing. Why can't other people? Oh because this game is about friends and not about "loot", right? :\

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Devo

Or you could just be lucky like me and belong to a gaming clan, WoW being one of the games played. It is about comradery and items are given on a necessity basis, not this rolling shit. Only time rolling does come into play is when two or more people need the same thing.

Uh.. who said anything about rolling? :P

I'm just talking about all the people who fear this change and that this is going to cause guilds to explode or whatever.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by dagget

So.. it's ok to fuck people over for a year and a half, because they aren't in raiding guilds, but now that the do level caps, it's not ok? Because those people are raiders?

Are you dyslexic or something? Are you incapable of processing anything I'm saying? I didn't even insinuate any of that anywhere in my post(s). If you're going to try to argue at least do it with actual points instead of pulling them out of your ass.

Also, screwing someone over doesn't mean Blizzard should screw the other side of the field. That's idiotic logic. The smart thing would have been to have equal amounts of both content from the get go instead of having to release a ton of raid dungeons after release.

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A. Now all raiding guilds magically have only 40 people in their guild MAX, that raid with them everynight. They don't have 41 members or 60 people in their guild. It's all down to 40 people in the guild now. (despite some saying that they have anywhere from 50-60 people online at any given raid night) What happened to the other ones who were online and told "Sorry, everyone's here. We don't need you to be online." ?

The entire point is that we'll have to tell MORE people "Sorry, everyone's here. We don't need you to be online." My guild has 50-ish solid players and I can tell you right now running two raids will not work. When ZG and AQ20 most endgame raiding guilds with a million people tried running two raid groups at the same time. Even with the leeway of needing 5 less people it did not work. You have no understanding of how endgame raids function and what goes into forming and maintaining a successful raid.

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I am so fucking sick of everyone always assuming the casual base and what they want, no really, I am. I play casually. Why? Because I hate the rules and bullshit that goes on in high-end raiding guilds. I chose not to go to one (even being offered to join them) Why? Because I don't need that headache. But because I chose to not go to one, I'm not allowed to see the new content because "lol u don't raid naxx so ur casual and will never set foot in these places" Assumptions are nice aren't they?

The exact same shit will go on in the new content, only with less people. This is not a magic change to get casuals into endgame. If casual players (or whatever you want to call them) aren't raiding Naxx now they will not be raiding Black Citadel in the expansion.

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The point of this was to make content better accessable to those who don't have the time nor care to join a raiding guild, and are in a smaller guild of friends.

But it doesn't, as I've said before. Endgame instances like the Black Citadel will take just as much time as AQ40 and Naxxramas do now. It will be just as impenetrable to people with no time and dedication as the current endgame.

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This arguement is so old, it's not even funny.

It's not an arguement. It's the truth.

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Pleae tell me what dungeons were added after Dire Maul for people who have done nothing but cleared and farmed out of the hell of Scholo/Strat/Blackrock Spire? Hell, I'll even throw ZG in there now. There haven't been.

Because at release there were more non-raid dungeons than raid dungeons. Are you reading anything that I'm typing here?

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Also if that douchebag from DnT wants to leave and throw a temper tantrum like Furor (which is what he's doing) because now there's no content to make him better, as well as about 4 upgrades higher in terms of gear, than a person who plays like me, then he's nothing but a fucking baby. Plain and simple.

No, he'll still be geared far past you. I'm sure DnT will kill Illidan a few months after release whereas you probably will after the next next expansion is released. As I've said many, many times this change does not help people like you. If you don't like endgame now you won't magically like endgame in TBC. If anything, the guilds running it will be even more strict since they have to have very exact classes to fill those 25 spots. With a 40 man raid you can screw up the class balance to a degree and be fine. With 25 you'll need exactly this, this, and that with this exact spec.

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The non-raiding/casual/casual raiders wanted content to fit them. They got it

No, they didn't. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. Less people != accessible to casuals.

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Friends that they've probably made while screwing other friends in a smaller guild over.

And this is pretty much what your entire arguement and casual-ness comes from. You've had bad experiences with whatever and now raiding guilds are the devil and everyone in them is out to get everyone else. No giant raiding guild knows what it's like to be small or casual because they all obviously popped into existence one day with 60 people.

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But most raid leaders hate organizing 40 (I know some who do, and I know it's a headache myself) they see this as a blessing.

You are probably one of the least qualified people to say what "most raid leaders" hate and don't hate.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I don't care if someone's geared past than me. The fact you brought up him being geared past me and that he will take down Illidan in a month (providing he doesn't follow through the threat and quit) is irrelavant. (I actually find that as a sad attempt at flaming too. I don't care about other guilds progression, I care about my own) It's the generalization that because we don't have Naxx on farm status, then we will never see the content. That is essentially what is being said from the forum trolls and "people who speak for all raiders".

Let me clarify. "Casuals are not going to learn these instances, because that they don't raid now." That's a pretty big assumption. Like saying that they won't be able to advance because they'll never learn. That's not 100% true. I like to learn instances. I just don't get to it as fast as the super hardcore raiders. This does NOT make me a "gimp stupid retard lol casual player" because of that fact. It's insulting to be told I can't do something, when I haven't tried the new stuff yet.

Because I don't spend 6-8 hours a night raiding, doesn't mean I'll never see the content, or finish it "ZOMG SO FAST". It'll take time for me to get there. No one has EVER denied that fact. Point is, I will get there. Just because I'm not in a pompus-ass "if I can't have my 40 man main raid run I'm ruined" guild, doesn't make my time and effort any more or less than theirs.

Also, I like your last line, about me being one of the least qualified to know what raiders hate and don't hate. Same can be said to you and your "casual" arguement. Kettle. Pot. both black, both redundant.

The content they got in TBC will fit them. How so? Because now instead of having to join a raiding guild, they have access to it without going to one. This doesn't mean "OMG EASIER LOLZ" It just means that they have a greater chance to go there now under their own circumstances, instead of relying on joining a bigger guild and leaving their friends for "phat lewtz". There will be people who still won't go to these instances and still bitch about "easy epix". Then those need to get out and stop ruining the game for the casual gamer who yearns to advance. This is going to be challenging for everyone. Even hardcore raiders like yourself. It'll only be "easy" when the encounters are learned and completed. This applies to all games. Not just the Raiders of WoW.

I, for one, will enjoy the content that I can get to, because I like casual raiding. But, there's no such thing. it's RAID 40 MAN OR DIE now, right?

Arguements can be thrown back and forth like this. Fact is. Changes happened. Everyone will have to adapt. This time it's just changed on who has done the most crying about it.

It won't matter anyway, with the new level difficulty scale, you guys will still be on top anyway. It'll be like "LOLOL you finished Illidan at level 70? ::LAFF:: we did it at level 75 difficulty level LAWLS"

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by dagget

The fact you brought up him being geared past me and that he will take down Illidan in a month

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Also if that douchebag from DnT wants to leave and throw a temper tantrum like Furor because now there's no content to make him better, as well as about 4 upgrades higher in terms of gear, than a person who plays like me, then he's nothing but a fucking baby.

YOU brought it up.

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Let me clarify. "Casuals are not going to learn these instances, because that they don't raid now." That's a pretty big assumption. Like saying that they won't be able to advance because they'll never learn.

It's not a matter of learning. If they don't have time to raid now they won't have time to raid in the expansion. The player cap is changing, not the time required to down bosses. Endgame raid guilds will be endgame raid guilds, only with less people. I don't know what's so hard to grasp about this.

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Because now instead of having to join a raiding guild, they have access to it without going to one.

If they are in a guild and raiding, their guild is a raiding guild. It will still have rules, a looting system, etc. If you expect 25 retards to zone into Black Citadel and kill anything you are sorely mistaken.

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I, for one, will enjoy the content that I can get to, because I like casual raiding. But, there's no such thing. it's RAID 40 MAN OR DIE now, right?

Ok, I'm going to spell this out for you one more time. Try to gather your brain cells in one place and concentrate.

Raiders do not care if their raids are 10 man or 25 man or 40 man or 500 man. It was the fact that for two years they built their guilds around endgame requiring 40 people. Now Blizzard has suddenly changed this and most endgame guilds either have to recruit a ton of people to try running two raids (which will not work) or tell half their guild to fuck off. Either way, raiders are getting screwed. Had they released the game with a raid cap of 25 to begin with, nobody would have a problem right now.

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It won't matter anyway, with the new level difficulty scale, you guys will still be on top anyway. It'll be like "LOLOL you finished Illidan at level 70? ::LAFF:: we did it at level 75 difficulty level LAWLS"

Nobody cares about who does what when and how hard it was. We care about the people we've come to enjoy spending time with getting screwed. When it comes down to it I'm sure we'll all adapt, but that doesn't make it right. Xi put it best:

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Let me leave you with a final thought, one you may see repeated in the upcoming days, because it was included in an article I was asked to contribute to. When Death and Taxes kills Illidan, and we stand over his corpse for our screenshot, will our first thought be: Where are the other 15 people who stood together with us for Onyxia, for Ragnaros, for Nefarion, for C'thun, and finally for Kel'Thuzad.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

(condensed it)

I really don't understand what is so hard about splitting up two core teams for the guild. Honestly. You can scream all the insults you can. You can call me a "casual fucking noob asshole that will never understand because I'll never get out of UBRS because I fail at being hardcore" all you want to. I'm actually trying to find a reason here, other than the same "2 years with the same people" arguement.

There's a 40 player base core in a hardcore guild. You are now offered 3 choices after the expansion.

1. Split them up into two core groups.
2. Cut 15 "good friends"
3. adapt and try to maximize the level cap to your guild's fullest potential.

Why are cutting these people an option if they're friends? What makes it so hard to grasp that raiding can be done with less than 40? What makes 40 special? Because that's the number blizzard first implemented? (You've already answered this by saying it was the number Blizzard made to begin with, so I'll just accept that part of the answer and move on. :P)

Can you tell me why two groups running these instances in one guild won't work? I mean, I really want to know this stuff. If you have people who are onlne that are more than the 40 who are currently raiding, won't this give them something to do besides farming mats for the "guild" to use? RaidIDs have been thrown out, but no one knows how long these timers are going to be for. It could be 3 days. 5 days, or 7 days. The raidID answer will be valid when more on that comes out from blizzard.

I'm just trying to understand that if a guild has more than 40 people who raid, why does this new raid cap suddenly make people feel that all these "freindships are for naught"? Won't you still be in the same guild? Won't you still be conversing and raiding with these people? Just not the whole crew at once?

If people are really as tight as they say are, then they won't leave, but try to work out and adapt the change. Not be upset because some can't raid with everyone at once anymore and try to figure out which 15 of those 40 are "the weakest links". :\

I used my brain cells on that one!

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by dagget

I really don't understand what is so hard about splitting up two core teams for the guild.

Quoted from Brunette who posted on the DnT website explaining this same thing:

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Maybe some real numbers will help you understand. We have a Naxx raiding base of about 56 people. Generally our attendance ranges from 75-95% a night. In order to be able to run 2 groups when you have an 75% attendance you would need about 67 people. This means right away we are recruiting 10 more players. Now you have troubles with 2 seperate raid locks; less active people can only fill a spot in one of the raids per lock cycle. So if A Team was short on tanks the first night; they would have to lock all the excess tanks in order to progress that night. If A Team regular tanks returned the next night and B Team was missing tanks they would have no backup pool to go too.

Also, its awesome when A team is one shotting everything and B team is still wiping to the boss weeks after yor first kill. As well if A and B team are always the same people; might as well make 2 fucking guilds. You thought organizing one 40 man group was hard? Try organizing 2 balanced 25 man groups. Even back when ZG was freshly opened and everyone was interested in doing it; it was difficult to constantly and successfully field 2 seperate raids.

Now if we do only one raid with our 56 members than 55% of our members are sitting playing with themselves all night. People being left out constantly on OOR will just say fuck the game or the guild.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Quote:

Maybe some real numbers will help you understand. We have a Naxx raiding base of about 56 people. Generally our attendance ranges from 75-95% a night. In order to be able to run 2 groups when you have an 75% attendance you would need about 67 people. This means right away we are recruiting 10 more players. Now you have troubles with 2 seperate raid locks; less active people can only fill a spot in one of the raids per lock cycle. So if A Team was short on tanks the first night; they would have to lock all the excess tanks in order to progress that night. If A Team regular tanks returned the next night and B Team was missing tanks they would have no backup pool to go too.

Also, its awesome when A team is one shotting everything and B team is still wiping to the boss weeks after yor first kill. As well if A and B team are always the same people; might as well make 2 fucking guilds. You thought organizing one 40 man group was hard? Try organizing 2 balanced 25 man groups. Even back when ZG was freshly opened and everyone was interested in doing it; it was difficult to constantly and successfully field 2 seperate raids.

Now if we do only one raid with our 56 members than 55% of our members are sitting playing with themselves all night. People being left out constantly on OOR will just say fuck the game or the guild.

Couldn't they just... uh, you know, change it so that a raid isn't locked by players, but by the raid leader?

If they could do this, then I think it would solve most of the problems you're mentioning. Group A one-shotting bosses while Group B wipes at 100%? Shuffle around the raid and switch out some that have finished the boss with those that haven't.

Granted, the only time I've ever set foot into freaking MC is when we had finished a PUG attunement run (that I couldn't do) and we were curious... but this sounds less like a problem of 25-man caps and more of a problem with the mechanics of raiding currently in place.

FELIPE NO

There are a lot of things Blizzard could do to possibly ease the assfucking this change has performed on raiding guilds. Right now all we can go on is what we've been told. Another post explains in more detail why A and B Teams do not work from firsthand experience.

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I love the 'get two raids going idea' in theory it's a good idea, but in practice it doesn't work. We've tried it, others have too.

Guess what? My raiding guild has tried that(We've downed 11 bosses in Naxxramas to gage what our level of play is.) We used to be able to field over 80 members for Onyxia/MC. We were able to do it about 3 times. We ended up stopping it because of the following:

1) While we could consistently field plenty of total numbers, fielding the proper class mixes was difficult if not impossible.

2) Inevitably after some time one group begins to be considered the 'A' group and one group feels like the 'B' group. Either that or you end up reducing the skills and abilities of one raid to bring up the ability of the other raid.

3) While most of the people in my guild are friends with each other, (we regularly field 60 for Naxxramas) you still develop cliques. It's part of human interaction. The guild almost ended up splitting up when we put people in different raids.

4) Lets assume for a sec that on one night of the week you field enough people to run 2 raids and kill the first boss in the instance in both raids. Now on night two you end up having 9 healers on,(plenty for a 25 man raid) but 4 of them are tuned to one instance and 5 are tuned to the other instance. Doesn't work and actually slows progress through the instance for the entire guild.

We finally realized that one guild attempting to field two raids just doesn't work. After all, if you're running two raids why not have two guilds?

We originally started on warsong, and when we transferred to Gurubashi, we ended up losing some of our really good players simply because they didn't want to lose the ability to play with their friends in other guilds on Warsong. I imagine that if we were to attempt to field two raids again, we'd end up splitting and people who are friends will end up in different guilds.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

But the thing is, no one knows what these lock out timers will even be. Don't you think DnT is jumping the gun on this, just a little bit? They're turning a situation that they do not know the full details of, into the hugest worst-case scenerio to happen in any game ever. :\

I dunno, but it just seems that 2+ groups of 25 to take down the end instance would be easier to manage.

Sorry, d00d. I guess I'll never really understand why everyone thinks what they say is law and if they don't want to do it, then why should anyone want to do it. It's just a huge re-hash of EQ/Furor. It's going to happen (more than likely) in every MMORPG to come out at all.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

The bottom line is, if you cannot put together two core raiding groups and do some interchanging from time to time your guild simply isn't a focused team. This isn't some top 40 elitist bullshit anymore now, this is getting together 25 man teams of your best and letting them destroy everything.

The two (and even three) teams work. Anything that claims otherwise is only there because they either feel threatened to lose DKP/gear, threatened that someone else is going to shine above them, or threatened because they actually HAVE TO HAVE SKILL now.

I'll see your WTF and raise you two LOLs.

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Eh, I've put up with WoW for some time now, and I think it's time to call it quits. It was fun while it lasted, but I need to move on. Too many changes and things to keep up with while balancing school and work is tough.

<3 Wow, I knew you well.



This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

http://www.gamesradar.com/us/pc/game...03131624956087

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Finally, after months of pissing me off, Majorhomo dropped a CHT for me. It was probably the happiest I've been with raiding EVER (outside of when I got my Perdition's Blade).

http://ctprofiles.net/3023210

That is one hot rogue.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Guild I've been going to MC with for a while has finally put the stops on a few warriors going in there. It sucks because now I've been asked to bring my Shaman instead of my warrior. Granted I'll get geared faster, but I'm cautious about bringing my Shaman in these runs. I know I'll end up screwing up. heh.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by dagget

Who were you in Thunderhorn? What was the guild? I could tell you if it fell apart and how it did probably. :P

OMG OMG. 25 player max?!?! <3 <3 <3 I might be able to get my guild off the ground after all!

Kelor, an alliance paladin.

I was in Prophets of the Alliance, which disbanded, then Reborn, until it was overcome with retards who wanted to raid 6/7 nights a week. I've been told it was disbanded since, and the hardcore raiders moved to another server.

Besides, Jubei'Thos is where its at now for aussies anyway.

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Originally Posted by dagget

Guild I've been going to MC with for a while has finally put the stops on a few warriors going in there. It sucks because now I've been asked to bring my Shaman instead of my warrior. Granted I'll get geared faster, but I'm cautious about bringing my Shaman in these runs. I know I'll end up screwing up. heh.

Don't worry, shammies are supposedly good in MC. Just get MP5 then +healing then intellect, and if you want to spec it for JUST raiding go 31 points in Resto, and pick up Mana Tide and Healing Way. Skip purification though, it doesn't factor in healing, and Totemic Mastery if you have 3-piece Earthfury.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by HazelGuy

Kelor, an alliance paladin.

I was in Prophets of the Alliance, which disbanded, then Reborn, until it was overcome with retards who wanted to raid 6/7 nights a week. I've been told it was disbanded since, and the hardcore raiders moved to another server.

Besides, Jubei'Thos is where its at now for aussies anyway.

Name sounds familiar. Reborn is still around... so to speak. Actually, I think Reborn left to another server. I know Ramonster just left, but most of the people have left due to server lag. Most of Imminent left too.

I remember Prophets of the Alliance, though. Especially when you guys would raid TB. :P My gnome got in Pants Pirates (another Aussie guild) but due to real life stuff happening, I don't know how long I'll stay there. All my horde are in my guild, Scumdogs of Azeroth. (Best tabard on Thunderhorn. PERIOD!) I may try to get into Sanctify since they're like the only guild who does modified rolling instead of DKP. (PP went DKP recently, which makes me sad as when I joined they didn't care about loot and just played to have fun. )

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Originally Posted by dagget

Name sounds familiar. Reborn is still around... so to speak. Actually, I think Reborn left to another server. I know Ramonster just left, but most of the people have left due to server lag. Most of Imminent left too.

I remember Prophets of the Alliance, though. Especially when you guys would raid TB. :P My gnome got in Pants Pirates (another Aussie guild) but due to real life stuff happening, I don't know how long I'll stay there. All my horde are in my guild, Scumdogs of Azeroth. (Best tabard on Thunderhorn. PERIOD!) I may try to get into Sanctify since they're like the only guild who does modified rolling instead of DKP. (PP went DKP recently, which makes me sad as when I joined they didn't care about loot and just played to have fun. )

Those TB raids were awesome fun, when there was an entire herd of guards chasing us around the place. Reborns rolling system was totally retarded, since it required you to attend every raid to ever ever stand a chance of getting anything, which in turn was 6 days a week raiding. A group of us split off to Jubei'Thos and its fun as hell. I just got my Undead Priest to 60, he'll be strictly for PvE, and then I'm stuck between a hunter or warlock for PvP.

You should come join us on Jubei'Thos, its a lot of fun, way better than TH was, and you could always just transfer your character.

There's nowhere I can't reach.