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[Movie] L O S T [possible spoilers]
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Musharraf
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 11:22 AM Local time: Feb 18, 2008, 05:22 PM #1 of 595
Thumbs up L O S T [possible spoilers]

The old L O S T thread can be found here

So, since we finally have a new season to watch, let's talk about it.

I must say that I like it very much so far. They didn't fuck up the first episodes of this season like they did with season 2 and 3. A lot of new faces, most of them are pretty much okay. Also, Jack has finally stopped to be a total faggot, that is pretty positive.

Sayid in Germany was pretty cool, too, off course.

It's definitely going to be an interesting season

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 11:37 AM #2 of 595
"Interesting?" I'm not looking forward to it at all.

I can't even sit through flash forwards, let alone knowing that six of the Losties are going to end up on the mainland.

I'm glad that they finally decided to focus on Sayid, though. A little attention paid to the original characters is NICE. I'm sick of being introduced to insignificant, inconsequential characters. (After the whole Nikki and Paolo thing, I don't trust those motherfuckers at all.) I was really upset when I saw Ben was pulling the strings on that whole mission in Berlin.

I'm convinced that this new "freighter" group is what's left of Dharma. (As evidenced by Charlotte in the desert with a polar bear corpse and a Dharma collar).

Why I think I am so resentful to this new season is due to the fact that they've made me sit and wait 8 months, and I feel like the whole plot line is changing. It's moving fast, which is normally fine by me? But I am TERRIFIED they're going to overlook all the things that they've set up in the past and leave them unanswered.

Fourth season, and we still don't know what that goddamn smoke monster is. I mean jesus christ, can we get any more ridiculous?

I'm starting to question why I bother watching at all. I know they're going to break my heart.

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Musharraf
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:10 PM Local time: Feb 18, 2008, 06:10 PM #3 of 595
I'm starting to question why I bother watching at all. I know they're going to break my heart.
You know you can't stop watching. Don't even try to think about it!

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:32 PM #4 of 595
Fourth season, and we still don't know what that goddamn smoke monster is. I mean jesus christ, can we get any more ridiculous?
I always suspected that the smoke monster's background would be the big reveal at the end of the show. So...we'll probably find out sometime next season.

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Musharraf
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:35 PM Local time: Feb 18, 2008, 06:35 PM #5 of 595
By the way, is it just me or is Hurley even fatter than before? I mean, this dude is so fat, you can barely see his face anymore

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:46 PM Local time: Feb 18, 2008, 02:46 PM #6 of 595
I'm convinced that this new "freighter" group is what's left of Dharma. (As evidenced by Charlotte in the desert with a polar bear corpse and a Dharma collar).

Why I think I am so resentful to this new season is due to the fact that they've made me sit and wait 8 months, and I feel like the whole plot line is changing. It's moving fast, which is normally fine by me? But I am TERRIFIED they're going to overlook all the things that they've set up in the past and leave them unanswered.
I'll go a little beyond in the freighter part, and say that it's a new party, interested in the old dharma experiences.

And I agree that the plot is going south fast, every episode a new question pops, and none of the 3 previous seasons questions were awnsered, and what the heck are all the future flashes coliding after all? 3rd season jack was so keen in returning to the island, 4th season he's a normal citizen again...

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 12:55 PM #7 of 595
As much as I want an answer to the smoke monster mystery, I know it won't happen until much later.

My main problem with the questions on this show is less that they aren't answered and more that they aren't ever fucking addressed. Am I the only one who feels that if I saw a flying cloud of death-smoke, I would not stop talking about it? The problem is that a ton of these mysteries go ignored by the cast, and that, if you ask me, is just poor writing.

Granted, my friend who is a huge Lost fan tells me that they never knew when the show would end, so they didn't want to address anything until they had a finalized show schedule. Regardless, it was relieving to hear Locke say point blank "what is the smoke monster" a few episodes ago.

I think the "man on their boat" Ben was referring to is none other than Michael. I'll bet money on it.

As much as I don't really like the direction the story is going, I think this season is off to a fantastic start. Unlike season 3 (which I think is the weakest), it has a definitive seasonal arc. Season 3 was a train wreck with no clear direction. Season 2 atleast had the seasonal arc involving the hatch, which is why I loved it. Season 4 is shaping up to be the season that centers on getting the 'Oceanic 6' off the island, so I'm happy it has some structure.

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 01:07 PM Local time: Feb 18, 2008, 03:07 PM 1 #8 of 595
As much as I want an answer to the smoke monster mystery, I know it won't happen until much later.

My main problem with the questions on this show is less that they aren't answered and more that they aren't ever fucking addressed. Am I the only one who feels that if I saw a flying cloud of death-smoke, I would not stop talking about it? The problem is that a ton of these mysteries go ignored by the cast, and that, if you ask me, is just poor writing.
Not really, think like this, they are stuck on an island with no means out, you can only talk about something you have no idea what it is for some time, after it, it gets pointless.

Imagine this, you and your friends are camping somewhere, for a whole week, no phone, no way of coming back, yada yada, on the first day, ya'll see a flying cardbox who kills a bear, now, honestly awnser, how many days you think you can talk about the box before one of your friends just say "enough with the box already!"

It's normal human behaviour, and the writers are right on not over using the question, and because if every couple of episodes someone asks about it, and no one awnsers it, the viewer is gonna be pisst and loose interest.

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 01:27 PM #9 of 595
I think the "man on their boat" Ben was referring to is none other than Michael. I'll bet money on it.
Ahahaha, you're not alone. That's EXACTLY what my friends said too.

I too was relieved when Locke said something about the smoke monster. $20 says they're going to explain it away by saying it's Jacob's spirit or some shit.

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 01:35 PM #10 of 595
I'm not saying they should discuss the mysteries at length every episode, but you don't find it odd that these people encountered a fucking flying smoke monster and didn't atleast say "hmm, that was weird" ?

I read a really great theory about Jacob and the smoke monster on a Lost forum. Pretty far fetched, but pretty air-tight in terms of logic holes too. I have it spoilered here, complete with awesome drawings the guy did:

Spoiler:
Originally Posted by andrew smith
The Astorian Theory




We have been given clues as to the identity and purpose of Jacob: a seemingly empty chair, liquid-filled jars on the window ledge, an oil painting of an Airedale terrier all in a derelict shack surrounded by a line of what appears to be dust; his ghost-like appearance to Locke in period costume - his words "help me"; his dislike of technology; his list; and, most importantly, the reverence in which the Others hold him.

If we can work out who Jacob is, we may solve the mysteries of LOST - the island, its time, the end of the world, the Others, the smoke monster etc.. This theory presents a portrait of Jacob.

























The character and idea of Jacob here draw on two Jacobs: John Jacob Astor (1763 - 1848) and his great grandson John Jacob Astor IV (1864 - 1912).




John Jacob Astor was the richest man in America in his day. His wealth was in fur trading, which brought him into contact with Daniel Boone amongst other interesting characters, and then Manhattan real estate. On his deathbed, his only regret was that he could not buy more of Manhattan. He lends his name to various Astorias including the Waldorf Astoria and Astoria, Oregon - about 2 hours' drive from Portland.



John Jacob Astor IV sustained and developed the Astor wealth. Also, he wrote a book called 'A Journey in Other Worlds'. This science fiction novel contains a lot of Ideas, prescient and usually based on magnetism - such as the magnetic eye. And there is this:

"A man's soul can never die; a manifestation of the soul is the spirit; this has entity, consciousness, and will, and these also live forever... Before becoming visible to your eyes, I, by my will, draw certain material substances in the form of gases from the ground, water, or air around me. These take any shape I wish - not necessarily that of man... By an effort of the will, then, I combine and condense these gases - which consist principally of oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon - into flesh, blood, water, or anything else."
words of the Spirit, ChapterVII 'A Journey in Other Worlds' by John Jacob Astor IV.

The Spirit explains to the adventurers that he was an American bishop who died before the Civil War; that there are many spirits flitting around as shadows and whispers though it takes a certain aptitude to develop the necessary skills to materialise - into anything.

"A pillar of stone standing near him was suddenly shattered, and
the bishop stood where it had been."

Consider the island: the whispers, the whispered bodiless conversations and the movement just at the periphery of vision, the sense of not being alone: these things are in JJ's book.

Jacob is simply the best - the most skilled non-corporeal consciousness - able to draw physical form from the elements around him.

The Spirit of the book explains further:

"Time, replied the spirit, "has not the same significance to us that it has to you... Being insensible to heat and cold, darkness and light, we have no more changing seasons, neither is there any night. When a man dies," he continued with solemnity, "he comes at once into the enjoyment of senses vastly keener than any he possessed before. Our eyes - if such they can be called - are both microscopes and telescopes, the change in focus being effected as instantaneously as thought, enabling us to perceive the smallest microbe or disease-germ, and to see the planets that revolve about the stars... We also have a chemical and electrical sense, showing us what effect different substances will have on one another, and what changes to expect in the weather. The most complex and subtle of our senses, however, is a sort of second sight that we call intuition or prescience, which we are still studying to perfect and understand. With our eyes closed it reveals to us approaching astronomical and other bodies, or what is happening on the other side of the planet, and enables us to view the future as you do the past."
... outlining the abilities of prescience, healing and almost omniscient vision which we have seen in LOST in the healing of Locke, Rose, the accelerated recovery of Ben and Desmond's prescience.

And this:
"We absorb vitality in a sense," replied the spirit. "As the sun combines certain substances into food for mortals, it also produces molecular vibration and charges the air with magnetism and electricity, which we absorb without effort. In fact, there is a faint pleasure in the absorption of this strength, when, in magnetic disturbances, there is an unusual amount of immortal food. Should we try to resist it, there would eventually be a greater pressure without than within, and we should assimilate involuntarily. We are part of the intangible universe, and can feel no hunger that is not instantly appeased, neither can we ever more know thirst."
Detailing a diet of magnetism for the so-called 'spirits', of which there is an abundant supply on the LOST island.

The Spirit conjures scenes and people from memory. The heroes visit a conjured up cathedral amongst other things.
From the graves filled recently, and from many others, rose threads of coloured matter, in the form of gases, the forerunners of miasma. He now perceived shadowy figures flitting about on the ground and in the air, from whose eyes poured streams of immaterial tears. Their brains, hearts, and vertebral columns were the parts most easily seen, and they were filled with an inextinguishable anguish and sorrow that from its very intensity made itself seen as a blue flame. The ruffles and knickerbockers in which some of these were attired, evidently by the effects of the thoughts in their minds, doubtless from force of habit from what they had worn on earth while alive, showed that they had been dead at least two hundred years. Ayrault [one of the heroes] also now found himself in street clothes, although when in his clubs he had worn a dress suit.
This resembles moments in LOST, where a character is seemingly transported physically in time and space - most profoundly in Desmond's re-living of his romance with Penny - or in memory - with the conjuring of Ben's mother from the one indirect memory he had of her, that is: his photo of her.

Thus, the island is populated by these conscious non-corporeal beings one of which - Jacob - is magnificent enough to actually take shape and perform his illusions, drawing on the memories of the humans.

On April 14th 1912, John Jacob Astor IV stood on the deck of the Titanic. He had given up his place on the lifeboat to which his great wealth entitled him. Accounts differ as to his last words: "I asked for ice, but this is ridiculous." is the most common. It is also believed that he released all the dogs from the ship's kennels. I picture him on the deck with his beloved Airedale terrier Kitty.




So... is Cerberus - or 'the black smoke' - a human spirit? No, Cerberus is Jacob's dog. One clue is the name - belonging to the three-headed guard dog of Greek mythology. Another is the monstrous way in which the black smoke conducts itself - chasing and fetching people, digging up trees, making a lot of noise and generally sniffing around the place. At the end of Season 3, we see Cerberus - or Kitty - lying around Jacob's cabin. Gulping with fear, Ben steps over a line of what appears to be dust; curious, Locke stoops to smell the substance; let sleeping dogs lie - this is Cerberus waiting on her master Jacob as the faithful guard dog she is. Inside the cabin, we see the picture of how Cerberus used to look.

...the oil painting on the wall of Jacob's cabin.

But why does Cerberus resemble black smoke and not a dog?

When Jacob realised that he could give his consciousness form - centuries after his physical death - his first action was to summon his dog forth. But dogs are as resistant as the other human spirits of making that leap from spirit to physical. Jacob needed a medium in which Cerberus - or Kitty - could hold a physical presence; he used the black rock that is native to the island; shattering the magnetic rock to dust provided the dog with sufficient material to form a physical being. Unfortunately (in some ways), Cerberus did not hold the memory of her shape and size well enough for her to assume that shape. She could not remember her dog shape well enough in order to form it. The poor dog cannot even remember how to bark - not least because she does not have the larynx, lungs or mouth - she recalls the impressive and monstrous noises of her Manhattan home in place of a bark: the elevated railways, the trams, the street noise of centuries ago. There are advantages to losing the dog shape; for instance, Cerberus - or Kitty - can fly at speed in the electromagnetic field of the island and exert massive physical force as it protects Jacob her master.



So... who is Richard Alpert and the other Others? By all accounts, they've been on the island for a long time before DHARMA even arrived. The biggest single clue is the name Richard Alpert - a real-life man - like many LOST characters. Now known as Ram Dass, Alpert was the first to study and experiment with psilocybin - losing his professorship as a result - he proceeded to get high and tried to never ever land. Ram Dass - if I can vulgarise - promotes existence and human consciousness as being a great Oneness on a level free of physical being. Thus LOST's Richard Alpert is a literal incarnation of a spirit...

...Jacob, having summoned himself and his dog forth, then proceeded to assist the other spirits around him - the whisperers - to again live as physical human beings. They simply were incapable. Will and meditation were simply not enough. They did not want to exist as rock dust - like Cerberus - they wanted to feel as humans feel and to love as humans love. But the ingredients were missing - the flesh, the blood, the bone, the cells. Jacob with Cerberus at his side sniffed out the Black Rock - the sunken galleon - bringing it to the island. However, the occupants' flesh was corrupted beyond usefulness.



Then came 'Adam and Eve' (as described by Locke) as the progenitors of the Others. Adam and Eve sacrificed themselves - their living flesh and blood - so that Jacob could fashion human forms for his companions. Adam and Eve's consciousnesses transferred to two little stones - one black and one white - in a pouch, later discovered by Jack, while their flesh went on to clothe spirits.


LOST's Others are therefore not all technically human, unable to successfully reproduce. Ben is human - we see him born in a flashback. Ethan, amongst others, however was a creation of biological matter and not reborn from the womb but from Jacob's will. LOST's Alpert is the same - ageing very slowly - if at all; they've been there for centuries... In fact, they've been there since the end of the world.

The world ended at precisely 4:23 and 42 seconds on Wednesday afternoon, April 8th, 2015.
4 8 15 16 23 42 - the Numbers - a date for the end of the world. Here we should look at The Stand by Stephen King:

The first monitor showed only a digital clock. Until June 13, all the numbers on that clock had been green. Now they had turned bright red. They had stopped. The figures read 06:13:90:02:37:16.
June 13, 1990. Thirty-seven minutes past two in the morning. And sixteen seconds.
From behind him came a brief burring noise.


This is the date and time in King's book that the virus escapes the high security army compound and kills everybody (and some animals). A book could be written about the connections between LOST and The Stand - the old person who lives in a cabin who dislikes technology (Mother Abigail/Jacob); Mother Abigail being 108 years old; the infection; the question mark; Charlie is Larry; but, at this point, please just take my word for it: there is a strong relation between The Stand and LOST.

The purpose of DHARMA, in the island's unique environment, was to prevent the end of the world. The island exists in their and our future. DHARMA experimented with the island's unique position as a one-way bridge from now into the future and generally messed around with rabbits and anti-rabbits. But, for the Others, the world had already ended - centuries ago. It took centuries for the ruins of the previous world to crumble under the weight of climbing roots and disintegrate from many rainy seasons. Indeed, very little remains of Manhattan apart from a single section of the Statue of Liberty - just the four toes of her left foot.




...the Manhattan skyline after the end of the world (as we know it).

When Kate and Jack discover 'Adam and Eve' in the grove, they were semi-naked having fled a swarm of bees. Only when Charlie arrives and makes a cheeky joke about Kate's bra-size, does she feel her nakedness. This is a clue which I suggest points to: Jack and Kate are the 'Adam and Eve' corpses that they discovered. When Jack extracts a pouch containing a black and white stone from the male corpse's pocket, he is actually picking his own pocket. These stones are a paradox. And, as such, allow Jack and Kate back to the island.

At the close of Season 3, Jack is fraught with regret because he screwed everything up. Yes, he got them rescued from the island and they all got golden passes. But then he is forced to live with the knowledge that the world will end in 2015 and there's not a damn thing he can do about it. He flies to Australia continuously in the vain hope of crashing back onto the island.... And one day he will remember the stones. Just like Dorothy and the ruby slippers, the stones will return Jack and Kate to the island - far in the future - where they will willingly give up their bodies so that Jacob can create the Others.


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Old Feb 18, 2008, 02:03 PM #11 of 595
Jesus CHRIST, Sprout. That is one goddamned far-fetched theory.

But like you said....it makes sense. Far-fetched and insane, but really, a pretty good explanation, if you like that sort of thing.

I kind of hope that's how it goes. It's totally true about The Stand/Lost have these insane parallels - you can see it as early as season 1.

I hope there's some truth to that theory.

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 02:10 PM Local time: Feb 18, 2008, 07:10 PM #12 of 595
How about a spoiler warning in the thread title?

I love the new season so far. New characters are actually pretty awesome. I thought Dan simply had a shitty actor at first, but after about ten minutes I realised that the acting was intentional.

Good all around. It's keeping me gripped as ever.

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 04:01 PM Local time: Feb 18, 2008, 10:01 PM #13 of 595
Thx for the link :-)

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Feb 18, 2008, 07:26 PM #14 of 595
So how does this grand theory explain that Ben aged at a normal rate but not Richard?

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 07:30 PM #15 of 595
So how does this grand theory explain that Ben aged at a normal rate but not Richard?
Ben wasn't born (or "created") on the island. In this theory, Richard was. This theory does seem eerily plausible. It's certainly the only explanation I can think of for the Statue of Liberty's foot to be on the island.

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Old Feb 18, 2008, 09:55 PM Local time: Feb 18, 2008, 06:55 PM #16 of 595
Reply to Astorian Theory:
The specifics of that theory are way, way out there. The island is not Manhattan. It's ridiculous even for Lost. Ghosts reanimating corpses and time travel is more plausible to fit into the storyline of the show. I mean, come on. Geographically, I don't think the plane was anywhere near that region of the world when it was brought down. Let's say that doesn't matter and some crazy space/time dislocation magic occurred. The island was overrun to the point where there would be no sign of buildings, roads, subways, docks, bridges, or electrical systems in one of the most densely populated places on earth? How about the smaller island nearby?

I don't know about the Adam and Eve thing. All that will probably come back into the show as a factor near the conclusion, but there's so little information over that mystery that any sort of speculation is really grasping.

Given the quotes, though, it seems likely that the guy found a major reference for the show's creators, that's what seems interesting. That the smoke monster is a spiritual manifestation of a dead dog might be the first fan theory that I'm actually rooting for being correct.


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Old Feb 19, 2008, 05:06 AM Local time: Feb 19, 2008, 11:06 AM #17 of 595
Really enjoying the season so far. I like the new characters somewhat. Dan's great, as is the pilot. The other two I just want to bugger off and die somewhere. Why can't they make another decent English character? Hell can we just have Charlie back?

I'm seriously rooting for Locke's group, if not for the fact that it has all the best characters in it bar Sayid and Desmond (who are now off to the freighter anyway. I expect them to royally fuck that boat over when they discover the Boaties true intentions). Hoping that Sawyer and Locke stay alive, although things look bad for Sawyer. I just know they're gonna do the whole "noble sacrifice" thing and he'll die to save Kate or something equally shit.

Jam it back in, in the dark.


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Old Feb 21, 2008, 10:07 PM #18 of 595
O my, the first episode this season I loved!

Spoiler:
Chris and I were laughing so hard when they revealed that Kate's kid was Aaron. We saw that coming a mile away.

And Ben is right - what's up with the 3.2mil that Miles is asking for? Why that amount?

And what's the "progress" Dan is making while playing cards with Charlotte?


Next week looks doubly good. I love Desmond.

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Old Feb 23, 2008, 07:43 AM Local time: Feb 23, 2008, 04:43 AM #19 of 595
It was an okay one for a Kate focused episode, but, typically, the Kate-centric are the worst ones.

Spoiler:

Yeah, Sass, I called that too. Wonder if there'll be an Aaron flashforward this season with him as a teenager or something. Wouldn't be surprised.


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Old Feb 23, 2008, 11:52 AM #20 of 595
It was an okay one for a Kate focused episode, but, typically, the Kate-centric are the worst ones.
I'm just happy that they answered the question of "what will happen to Kate when she goes back?" because honestly, I thought they may just dismiss the whole murder thing.

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Old Feb 23, 2008, 12:24 PM #21 of 595
I'm just happy that they answered the question of "what will happen to Kate when she goes back?" because honestly, I thought they may just dismiss the whole murder thing.
Agreed. The Aaron twist was nice, and certainly gives us something to ponder over along with everything else.

One nice thing about these flashforwards is that they are posing very interesting questions. The Oceanic 6, the fact that they are telling this blatant fabrication about what happened, Aaron... They're all very cool questions that we can be assured that we'll see a resoution to soon.

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Old Feb 23, 2008, 01:58 PM #22 of 595
Does this mean Aaron counts as one of the Six?

We can basically rule out that Kate was actually pregnant--simply because she isn't dead.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old Feb 23, 2008, 05:00 PM #23 of 595
Does this mean Aaron counts as one of the Six?

We can basically rule out that Kate was actually pregnant--simply because she isn't dead.
Probably not; Aaron wouldn't have counted as a passenger on the manifest.

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Old Feb 24, 2008, 03:21 PM #24 of 595
I wonder why people aren't wondering about the age of the baby, and the timing. I would think that there would be people other than the Marshall who were investigating Kate and aware of her crimes, yet nobody wondered why she wasn't pregnant at the time of the flight and now suddenly seems to have a baby?

Then again time seems to move at different rates on and off the island...

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Old Feb 24, 2008, 07:30 PM #25 of 595
Although very interesting, this story keeps getting more twists and not enough answers...

I'm beggining to wonder what Ben did once he sided with the "hostiles" and why are the "hostiles" against the Dharma initiative.

Spoiler:

So I guess Ben is the only master of a giant company that somehow exploits the island.

As for Aaron, did she steal the baby, is that her baby? What happenned to Claire?


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