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[Album] FINAL FANTASY XII Original Soundtrack (SVWC-7351~54)
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Spatula
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Old Jun 9, 2006, 10:34 PM Local time: Jun 9, 2006, 08:34 PM #101 of 124
Quote:
Say, did anybody else notice that the main drumline in the final battle theme is exactly the same as the drumline in Ultima the Nice Body?
I was thinking EXACTLY of that battle theme listening to the battle music, mainly because both of them deal with basically the final battle. I'll listen again for the similarities, but I personally like the FFT final theme better. Just to be sure, the final battle is "Batte for Freedom", do I stand correct?

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Old Jun 9, 2006, 11:14 PM #102 of 124
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Just to be sure, the final battle is "Batte for Freedom", do I stand correct?
Indeed.

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Old Jun 10, 2006, 02:58 AM Local time: Jun 10, 2006, 12:58 AM #103 of 124
I said it before but I'll say it again, I'm really enjoying this soundtrack . Sakimoto's orchestration is dense enough that after 4-5 playthroughs, you still notice things you missed the first time. And that is something that really contributes to the overall experience, because while you're playing the game you're gonna hear this music repeated several times anyways. I enjoy this technique; some composers (like the ones who contributed to the FFXI soundtrack) make tracks very long and drawn-out in order to avoid repetition. But in this case, the tracks usually repeat at around the 1:30 mark, making a whole lot of motivic ideas and developments occur during that short amount of time. I think this is why many people are turned off at first to his music, because they simply cannot understand the millions of things going on in that short amount of time. It's really a treat figuring out how all of his music works together and still finding new things in his music after so many playthroughs.
To sum it up, great soundtrack, amazing orchestrational technique (and counterpoint!), and you really need to listen to it at least 5 times in order to truly understand it.

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Last edited by Cheezeman3000; Jun 10, 2006 at 03:00 AM.
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Old Jun 10, 2006, 07:20 AM Local time: Jun 10, 2006, 02:20 PM #104 of 124
Originally Posted by Cheezeman3000
It's really a treat figuring out how all of his music works together and still finding new things in his music after so many playthroughs.
To sum it up, great soundtrack, amazing orchestrational technique (and counterpoint!), and you really need to listen to it at least 5 times in order to truly understand it.
How very well put. I fully agree with this description. It's such.. different music from, for instance Uematsu's and Mitsuda's. I find it harder to find 'instantly memorable' tunes in Sakimoto's work, but if you really give the soundtrack a chance, and you listen to it a number of times, every single song may actually stand out by its melody.
I'm utterly awed by this soundtrack. So much, in fact, that I may have to track down his Vagrant Story OST and give it another chance.

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Old Jun 10, 2006, 01:07 PM Local time: Jun 11, 2006, 01:07 AM #105 of 124
Btw, by the end of day when I last posted on this thread I have finished listening to it. Disc 3 was beginning to bore me, but disc 4 picks up the pace really quick and it ends great. Haven't got the chance to listen to it again, but I'll plan too (and many times...).

Too bad I never got the chance to finish this Vagrant Story (only plays a bit) that has being compared in this thread and so I'm totally unfamiliar with its ost. Maybe someday I'm gonna give this game a try to find out it's bgm collections. Well... I'm not really a fan of dungeon crawler games, so I'm not really sure about this...

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Old Jun 11, 2006, 03:07 AM Local time: Jun 11, 2006, 04:07 PM #106 of 124
I think what the people above me have mentioned is really true. There aren't really any instant memorable tunes in the Final Fantasy XII soundtrack except maybe the few exceptions that were heard for the Final Fantasy XII promotions like "Nalbina Fortress Underground Prison", "Theme of the Empire" and "The Dream to be a Sky Pirate". Overall, I consider the soundtrack really outstanding (just as how it felt with Final Fantasy XI). The soundtrack really extends for a much longer period of time so that eventually, when the soundtrack does loop in the game, you don't sense the difference and it seems amazing how the music can just keep going on and on without you getting bored of it!

I think Sakimoto did a really great job on the instrumentation and on first listen, I did get bored of the soundtrack because of the entire "grandeur" feel I got from it. I was on the look out for those beautiful piano pieces that were present in many of the Final Fantasy games (the only track that seems to intensively use the piano for the Final Fantasy XII Soundtrack is the theme song Kiss Me Good-Bye) but nope, couldn't find it anywhere. However, on second and third listen, it gets better and better. You start to appreciate the music much more and I think the soundtrack really complements all your in-game sound and music perfectly! It gives you a great view of how the world of Ivalice is constructed and what Sakimoto wants you to feel about the place as you step into it.

So ultimately, thumbs up! But so far, it's been the hardest Final Fantasy OST to unravel and get into. Maybe I'm just not used to this style. Final Fantasy XI still had some light go along tracks but the Final Fantasy XII OST, yar, you need time to listen to it. It can only get better on more listens!

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Last edited by ruixiong89; Jun 12, 2006 at 05:45 AM.
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Old Jun 16, 2006, 05:55 AM Local time: Jun 16, 2006, 06:55 PM #107 of 124
Guess I'm the only one who was automatically attracted by Sakimoto's video game scores.

I was a Uematsu fanboy until listened to FFTactics' OST in 2001. After that, everything was changed. His music never seems boring to me, as I can repeatedly listen to a whole Sakimoto OST for a few times, every time with different thoughts and discoveries. Even listening to those extremely ambient like 'Catacombs' in Vagrant Story can be enjoyable. I enjoy EVERY work he composed.

When I first heard that FFXII was developed by Matsuno's team, I was so excited, but what's more excited was the fact that Sakimoto was creating the score, and the result, as I can see now, is very satisfying. It's sort of like every work he has composed combined, yet largely magnified. I just can't find a single filler track in this score. Guess because of my fanboyism... hehe

I think this is probably the best post-SNES-era Final Fantasy original soundtrack (excluding DoC:FFVII maybe). The only thing that I would complained is the quality of the trumpet and french horn sample. VS did a better job than this.

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Old Jun 17, 2006, 02:16 PM Local time: Jun 18, 2006, 04:46 AM #108 of 124
Sorry for my belated replies, but

Originally Posted by Raijin
Btw, will we get a translation of this interview (or even some parts of it)? I think we have an explanation of why a such big difference between the in-game sound and the OST in this interview.
There is no explanation except 'OST includes the stuff before sequenced inside PS2', in that booklet.
In short, it's so hard to play luxurious music like FFXII on PS2 which has only 2 megabyte of sound memory.
Indeed, it's revealed they wanted to stream music because Sakimoto had used too many channels.

Originally Posted by Cellius
If there are any MIDI experts in this thread, would you care to hazard a guess about what libraries they're using here? I'm randomly clicking on tracks and the MIDI samples are incredible, at least to my ears.

Might this be the work of EWQLSO ? That's the highest quality library I can think of at the moment.
I'm not a MIDI expert, but Sakimoto and Kawamori mentioned it in a magazine.
Yep, mainly wood winds were taken from QLSO(Perhaps Platinum!), but strings and brass were respectively from Sonic Implants and Project Sam.
Then, some trumpet samples were from other library I can't remember the name now.

I have seen many dissatisfied with strings. Are Sonic Implants so bad samples?

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Last edited by Taisai; Jun 18, 2006 at 03:23 AM.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 03:35 AM Local time: Jun 20, 2006, 02:35 AM #109 of 124
I don't understand why they can't stream the music. Hamauzu (or rather, his genius sound programmer) did it with Dirge of Cerberus, which is probably even more chock-full of movies.

This same thing happened with Final Fantasy X; the developers whined about having to sequence the tracks, but I don't see why they had to do that.

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 04:53 AM Local time: Jun 20, 2006, 07:23 PM #110 of 124
Though I'm not a game developer, my thought is as stated below:

Streaming music brings the slower speed of loading data than sequenced music.
I haven't played DoC yet, but that was FPS game they could put an entire stage date on memory.
But FFX was RPG whose battle datas couldn't always be on memory.
In the case of FFXII, PS2 had to load and handle dates incessantly 'cause this game features a seamless transition from exploration to combat mode.
They would not be incompetent but prefer less loading time, to the better sound quality.

Still, I personally guess FFXII music was spoiled after sequenced in PS2.
Sakimoto was supposed to be able to compose simpler music.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Last edited by Taisai; Jun 20, 2006 at 05:41 AM.
jb1234
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 04:57 AM #111 of 124
On the other hand, DQ8 also had streaming music and they proved the technology was possible with such a large RPG.

Honestly, I don't know why they didn't stream FFXII's music. Disk space might have been an issue. FFXII had four times the amount of music as DQ8 and twice the amount of DoC.

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Old Jun 20, 2006, 06:55 AM Local time: Jun 20, 2006, 09:25 PM #112 of 124
Yep, as you say, foreign edition of DQVIII and Star Ocean 3 have both streamed music and the fast loading time.

However, FFXII has over 1.0 GB of free space.
I don't know how much size it require to compress 120 to 130 tracks into ADPCM files, though.

if that helps, I draw the comment of a staff on this from a guidebook.
Quote:
Yajima:It's hard to design the system since we couldn't know what would happens and when it would. We wanted to stream music at first because Sakimoto used many channels. But it needed too much load, so we finally decided to sequence music in PS2.


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Last edited by Taisai; Jun 20, 2006 at 07:05 AM.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 11:30 AM Local time: Jun 20, 2006, 08:30 AM #113 of 124
Understandable, considering the quantity of music compared to other games that streamed redbook tracks. That would probably explain why they used Sonic Implants strings as well. They're less harsh when it comes to using their sounds when stored internally and used by sequence. EWQL tends to get really uppity when it comes to using their sounds in any other way than a redbook recording.

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Old Jun 20, 2006, 11:09 PM #114 of 124
And of course, they could have made it a dual-layer disc. Then again, I can't think of many PS2 games that have been dual-layer...

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Old Jun 21, 2006, 02:36 AM Local time: Jun 21, 2006, 05:06 PM #115 of 124
Originally Posted by Cobalt Katze
They're less harsh when it comes to using their sounds when stored internally and used by sequence. EWQL tends to get really uppity when it comes to using their sounds in any other way than a redbook recording.
Hmm...Sakimoto dared to use worse samples.
Certainly, I heard some say he used better strings in Stella Deus which streamed music from disc.

Originally Posted by jb1234
And of course, they could have made it a dual-layer disc. Then again, I can't think of many PS2 games that have been dual-layer...
At least, it takes longer time to read dual-layer disc than single layer.
I hear many movies scenes of KH2 was cut off because of running out of disk space.
In this instance, staffs also preferred less loading time and comfort to the density of story.

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Old Jun 21, 2006, 02:40 AM #116 of 124
Really? Do dual-layered take longer to read? That's interesting... Might explain why there's so little dual-layered games out there. Xenosaga is the only one I can think of...

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Old Jun 21, 2006, 07:54 AM Local time: Jun 21, 2006, 10:24 PM #117 of 124
Still, I spoke of bog-standard DVD-Drives for PC.
By some chance, PS2 drive can have the same speed (4x) for dual-layer disc.
(Rather, I hear old models have a problem with even recognizing dual-layer disc...)

It's off topic.
The biggest reason most of games has been released in a single-layer is simply because they haven't needed so much capacity.
Actually, what hog disc space most in low resolution game are voice and pre-rendered movie.
While Xenosaga has the both too much, FFXII still features some pre-rendered movies and voice,
but most of event scenes are rendered in real time.


Btw, when will any FFXII arrange albums be announced?
I'm craving for orchestra album.

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Jun 22, 2006, 11:23 PM Local time: Jun 23, 2006, 12:23 PM #118 of 124
To be honest, my first listen of the FF12 OST didn't exactly evoke feelings of greatness. It was definitely good, epic and grand but didn't leave as strong as an impression as I'd hoped. For one, I thought the sountrack could have been more varied in terms of style and instrumentation at several spots (same complaints I have with some of Soule's work). More piano would have been nice. But with a few more listens, I must say the soundtrack is starting to grow on me.

I still gripe a bit about how the instrumentation could have been more diverse but now appreciate the care implemented into many of FF12's tracks. I guess Sakimoto's FF12 outing might not be as catchy as Uematu's classics but they have a bit more depth that takes time to recognize and enjoy. I also like how the soundtrack is very cohesive and thematic. The use of the wonderful FF12 main theme is great and really helps to create a more memorable listening experience in the end.

The battle themes are generally nice and sound pretty solid but I particularly liked the final battle theme. Definitely one of the better ones I've heard of late but I'm having some trouble adjusting to the brass sample used; I actually like the one in the psf version more. I'm also wondering if "Esper" (402) is a battle theme as well because it appears to be a slightly more exciting version of "Esper Battle." That and it's very reminiscent of several battle themes from Vagrant Story, particularly the percussion.

Speaking of which, there were quite a few moments of deja vu with FF12. Even with some of Iwata's tracks, I couldn't help but be reminded of FFT in many instances. And then there's of course the Vagrant Story throwback. Despite that, FF12 manages to create its own identity fairly successsfully. But I do kind of miss the stuff Sakimoto did in BoF: Dragon Quarter and Legaia 2: Duel Saga. I guess it's too much to ask considering the somewhat medievil setting of FF12 but I really liked the refreshing changes he introduced into Dragon Quarter.

Oh yes, then there's the obligatory vocal song. I found it a bit odd that the theme doesn't appear anywhere else in the soundtrack. It's pleasant as vocal songs go and a good effort by Uematsu but I imagine it would make a stronger impact if it had made more appearances. One reason why I felt "Melodies of Life" was very effective at FF9's conclusion was its many incarnations in the game, from the overworld theme to Garnet's song, which lent more weight and attachment to "Melodies of Life" in the end. But maybe "Kiss Me Good-Bye" will work out eventually. Many games have also resorted to using a previously unheard vocal song when the credits/ending sequences roll and some of those have been rather effective.

On a somewhat unrelated note, the Vienna Symphonic Library samples are very, very good. I didn't think it was possible to put so much character into synth. Well, actually, with a lot of work, it could be done, I guess. But I imagine Sakimoto's FF12 score would certainly benefit greatly from better synth in some spots. :P

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Last edited by Elorin; Jun 23, 2006 at 10:53 AM.
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Old Jun 25, 2006, 01:17 PM Local time: Jun 25, 2006, 08:17 PM #119 of 124
I'm a bit amazed how big the difference is between the psf2 file and the real stuff. I just listened to it. It just changed my vision about this OST in a good way...

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Old Jul 4, 2006, 05:11 AM Local time: Jul 4, 2006, 12:11 PM #120 of 124
I'm starting to enjoy this soundtrack. like many of you, I didn't like it at first, but it's definitely a grower. also, on the love theme, I had to listen to it a couple of times to enjoy it. but I really do like it now. although it may not be as great as the love themes of ff8 or 9.... maybe I'll like it more after I've played the game.

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Old Jul 6, 2006, 03:29 AM Local time: Jul 6, 2006, 12:29 AM #121 of 124
My first impression of this OST is that its different and beautiful, but ultimately pretty boring and uninteresting.

Most of the songs all feature the same musical idea. A wall of strings without much in the way of melody, going for more of an environmental type of sound rather than something more structured. Having some of the music like that would've been great, but its almost all like that. Some diversity would've done wonders.

I feel there's too much reverb on the sound. While they may have been aiming for a sound that's as close to an orchestral hall as possible, sometimes it sounds like its being played in a cave. A much crisper sound would've made things better. As it is, it makes things sound too messy and jumbled, and softens the impact it would've otherwise had.

The drums and percussion feel very weak and boring. They mostly serve as background filler, rather than adding a sense of attack or power to songs that would've benefitted from it.

Perhaps a few more listens will change some of my opinions (playing the game wouldn't hurt either I suppose), but as it is now, I'm not impressed at all. It may serve the game well, but as a stand-alone listen without much knowledge as to what situations they apply to, its all too similar and blah.

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Old Jul 6, 2006, 08:42 AM Local time: Jul 6, 2006, 06:42 AM #122 of 124
If you can't pick out any of the many wonderful and diverse melodies, you have some serious problems.

As for the reverb, I fear that too little reverb would make it sound nasty and ugly, like the Vagrant Story remaster that we recently released.

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Old Jul 7, 2006, 02:06 AM Local time: Jul 6, 2006, 11:06 PM #123 of 124
Well, it was my first listen through, so what I posted was merely first impressions. I stick by the idea that many of the songs are too similar and the melodies aren't strong on that fact.

Too little reverb can make things sound too artifical (unless that's what's intended), and I agree that killing it all would be a bad thing, but this album is saturated with it.

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Old Jul 7, 2006, 11:04 AM Local time: Jul 7, 2006, 08:04 AM #124 of 124
Reverb will always be a subjective thing. There's also a difference between using it generally to apply ambiance, as well as proper mixing of it to simulate a virtual location.

One of the differences I noticed from the PSF version of the soundtrack to this OST version, is that the mix on the PSF was all done with generic ambiance reverb. It's slapped on either via the audio engine or the samples' release trails and often gives a generic ambiance that we're used to in sequenced music. What's apparent on the OST version is that the instruments are mixed for depth as well, in that the ratio of wet vs. dry sound is different depending on where that instrument would be sitting in a room. While this adds to realism, it also adds more size to the virtual space and hence the reverb. Additionally, some instruments aren't as well-mixed as others and tend to pop through in a grating manner at times. All in all, it's a tricky business trying to create a virtual space, especially one that can fool our ears succesfully while at the same time fooling our ears still with the instrument sample quality.

And simply, regarding the repetition, it's been done a lot lately in RPG soundtracks to, actually, provide variety. What other games have done in the past is simply use one track for one theme and keep bringing it back over and over again when it's necissary. By having the composer write variations on the theme, that element can keep coming back but under different guises and have different connotations. Such as the tracks Coexistance labeled "Imperial Ver." and "Liberation Army Ver." - They take a similar piece, and then thread the imperial or rebellion themes into it so as to relate better to the scenario. Just one example of many

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