Hitoshi Sakimoto

Sorry if I have continued to miss your point, niki. I believe you missed mine quite a few times too. Communications breakdown on both sides.

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I'm just not fond of these negative threads (anymore). It would be a nice change of pace if there were such active threads discussing different composers' abilities in constructive, not destructive ways. That's all.

I don't often care whether a discussion of a composers' abilities is destructive, but I find declarations like 'Hitoshi Sakimoto is an absolutely TERRIBLE composer' thoroughly irritating. Of course, I'm known for endless destructive ranting, so I'm a hypocrite too.

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Sure they talk about Koji Kondo at that school, but for goodness sakes, a few memorable tunes isn't all the Japanese have to bring to the table

While your reference to Koji Kondo is understandable, I find it a bit generalised that you think he's only capable of a few memorable tunes. I think Ocarina of Time is wonderful on a creative and technical level, even if it's not especially complex. It fits the game wonderfully too. Star Fox 64 and Super Mario 64 were also creative works, albeit less consistent.

Most amazing jew boots

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While your reference to Koji Kondo is understandable, I find it a bit generalised that you think he's only capable of a few memorable tunes. I think Ocarina of Time is wonderful on a creative and technical level, even if it's not especially complex. It fits the game wonderfully too. Star Fox 64 and Super Mario 64 were also creative works, albeit less consistent.

Did I say thats what I thought?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Daniel DeCastro

Did I say thats what I thought?

Apologies for also making a generalisation. Given your statement and how people often interpret his work, I wrongly asusmed you were a Kondo basher.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Not at all, and no worries, I understand. I admire Kondo's work greatly. Dark Overworld from Zelda SNES is one of my all time favorite works from the 16-bit era. I hope they do a complete orchestral rendition of it someday as I am not too impressed with the brief orchestral version they put together, unless there is a version out there of which I am not aware.

FELIPE NO

I suppose I should post my credentials here, because they offer some sort of insight to who I am. I'm simply a high school senior, one who has slowly developed interest in the genre that Game Music has to offer. Understandably, I do not believe that a Bachelors or Masters degree in a certain subject should have any relation whatsoever to the merits of any statement from any of the posters, but I do understand the differences between major and minor chords.

My number one fear of Game Music fans is the denouncement of any certain composer just because a style may seem somewhat bland. The reason is extremely simple: Game Music by itself is an all-encompassing genre. As Daniel DeCastro states, Game Music is a mix of rock, jazz, synth, easy listening, and classical genres of music, often combining different styles into a single soundtrack (although I'd say rap usually isn't involved). I give you a few more overtly obvious examples of what everyone here will think is distasteful music:

Onegai Teacher Sound Collection 1: 26 - Depressed
Narue no Sekai Original Soundtrack: 05 - The First Date
Hikaru no Go Original Soundtrack: 27 - Little by Little

Note that the genre I happen to be criticizing right now is Anime Music. I'm not trying to say that all Anime Music is bad, but I'm saying that there are deservedly certain tracks from Japanese Animation that are either so overdone or so simple that it could never be suitable for listening alone. Now, I want to become more controversial that in my opinion could be absolutely distasteful by introducing a few tracks from the Game Music genre.

Ace Combat Zero The Belkan War Original Soundtrack: 219 - Zero //Kobayashi

The orchestration in this song is completely overdone and fails to deliver. The songs vocals especially jive with the spanish guitars in the background and fail to deliver a sense of energy. The male choir sounds absolutely muddled in the background.

Final Fantasy VII Original Soundtrack: 416 - One Winged Angel //Uematsu

The track is way too obvious, because every single part of the phrase combined to form a single coherent and biting melody. Even in the orchestral editions of the theme, there is no art to the song, and any normal major would have been able to compose it.

Chrono Trigger Original Sound Version: 119 - Frog's Theme //Mitsuda

Again, if we compare this song to the wondrous works of Debussy and Chopin, this song does not contain any of the similar melody and backing harmonies that make any piece aesthetic. Instead, it contains just a single march with alternating drums in the background. Seriously, oversimplified.

Final Fantasy XI Promathia no Jubaku Original Soundtrack: 24 - Gustaberg (Bonus Edition) //Mizuta

The song tries to evoke a certain relaxed image or feeling, yet it becomes boring almost immediately. In order to become better, the song would have to rid itself of the ugly guitar in the background, and actually attempt to use a real melody. Otherwise, this piece is just terrible.

Final Fantasy XII Original Soundtrack: 416 - The Battle for Freedom //Sakimoto

The chords in this song are completely muddled into one, making it absolutely horrible for a final battle theme. In fact, the instruments sound only like noise, because they completely jive with each other and never create a true honest battle melody. The song is also stretched way too long, especially with the introduction really covering four minutes of the nine-minute song.

Angry? Good. I'm sure that you will like at least one of these songs, if not with the zeal of a crazy fan, at least slightly. If you take a look at the five above tracks, each of them evokes a completely different image and really uses a different style. I could name even more melodies from soundtracks such as Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune, Chrono Cross Original Soundtrack, Phantasy Star Original Soundtrack, Wild Arms Original Soundtrack(s), Yoko Kanno's surprisingly similar anime albums, or different albums from the Megaman Series. The truth is, I've heard individuals have these complaints with the above five pieces; that’s why they could be considered absolutely distasteful by some. I suggest you compare these five tracks, with at least one coming from the absolutely abysmal Hitoshi Sakimoto to the bland melodies listed from the three anime series above. If there is some music that can be considered a threat to academia or your ears, then the three songs above must be nominated before the music from the games I have just listed.

If you find Hitoshi Sakimoto’s music truly bland, I suggest that you take another listen and see how the elements of the song compare to other tracks from Game Music. This time, keep an open mind, understanding that yes, it’s possible for me to gain an interest in Final Fantasy XII Original Soundtrack. In all honesty, BurningRanger posted an anonymous track at the very top from this soundtrack asking anyone to identify and question it. I agree that somebody may not be able to immediately identify it as a desert, per se, but the Eastersands make up a wild expanse of a variety of different creatures, including wolves and cacti, that make it an especially-bustling first track that creates a sense of freedom. I understand that in the end, Final Fantasy XII Original Soundtrack might not be completely suitable for your tastes, but don’t immediately ignore it and claim that Hitoshi Sakimoto doesn’t even deserve to be a composer.

The reason game music is its own genre is seriously because it is all-encompassing. When I take a look at all of the users who listen to game music during their spare time, I honestly believe that most of them are very open about different types of songs. I could say that my number one reason for listening to VGM is that it puts different styles of music on a single floor, one where there are no limitations to what can be done, except for the fact that the music has to emotionally affect people (through either stimulation, tears, wonder, anxiety, or anything similar). The game music community needs to focus on the positive aspects of each and every composer, understanding that what each individual prefers may not always be the same. It is appropriate to say “I like this song because of X” or “I do not like this song because of X,” but it is never correct to automatically denounce a composer as awful. Strong opinions about certain authors are sometimes good; but music, in the end, is always subjective.

By the way, if any of you were wondering, I absolutely love those five game tracks I listed.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

He is an absolutely TERRIBLE composer. He has no idea of what chord progressions incite emotions, or when to use these emotions, or even what emotion a given piece needs to have. He fails completely in his attempts to write incidental music .... Probably the worst thing about him is that every song he writes sounds exactly the same.

Although I too have noticed somewhat repetitive-ness in his music for some scores, i have to say wait until you hear his work on Romeo x Juliet before you've made up your mind about him (although it seems you already have). Most, if not all criticisms about 'when to use what' doesn't seem to be present in this, IMO (although i haven't seen the anime yet, just worked on the soundtrack.) Plus this score is almost fully orchestral, rather than synthesised, so theres alot more potential for 'emotion'.

I think also another factor is the way the director describes the scene to the composers, although granted a composer shouldn't make 'walking around music' sound the same... but he has alot of fans, so he must be doing something right!

Jam it back in, in the dark.

A fine post Arch Slayer, better than I could've done in my HS senior year (Well, by default I could not have done so at all; I dropped out of high school at age 16 due to a trauma experience; I got a GED when I was 18.)

With regards to hip hop, I do recall an interview where Uematsu states that he is influenced by hip-hop:

Q: "What do you think of the evolution of gaming machines in music?"

A: "Everything is becoming simpler in that I can do anything I want. Because I can have sound sampling in PSX or SNES, it's even possible to surprise the audience by orchestrated hits. Still, I think everything isn't perfect yet. I don't think there is meaning to using sampling to mimic real instruments. If I were to use sampling, *I would like to use it in a hip-hop kind of way*. I think we're in the midst of a transition from synth game music to recorded game music right now."

Source: http://www.ffmusic.info/ff8ostliner.html

As one who has listened extensively to hip-hop, it's influence can be found in certain rhythms and looping techniques. Parrapa the Rapper comes to mind, and boy does the composer understand hip-hop well. I actually like some of those beats =). It is no Biggie Smalls, or Dr. Dre, but it does demonstrate the eclecticism of the composers and the important presence of the hip-hop genre in games. Katamary Damaci had a Japanese Rap, and Yoko Kanno has written hip-hop beats as well. I have too, not that it matters to some. It is quite prominent, believe it or not, Grand Theft Auto being a more literal example, but probably doesn't count for some.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by datschge

I'm just not fond of these negative threads (anymore). It would be a nice change of pace if there were such active threads discussing different composers' abilities in constructive, not destructive ways. That's all.

Oh, yeah I guess you're right.

And Maul, I see no problems really. Again, and that'll be my final disclaimer since this is quickly becoming a musical discussion by and for musicians, I don't hate Sakimoto and there are many things I like a lot about him. I just don't think he's all that special, but then again I don't think many of nowadays popular VGM artists are. May be just me ~

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I thought I'd throw in my opinion as well, just to show my support for Sakimoto. He is one of my favorite composers. The posters who've shown their enthusiasm for Sakimoto have said things about him that I would second. His music has influenced me greatly, and I do consider him a musical genius. If you don't like his music and focus on certain aspects of music, that's great! If anything, this fact sheds more light on how different people react differently to different types of organized sound. Why that is exactly would make for very interesting discourse.

It could be anything from one's personal philosophy, sociological conditioning, musical exposure, anything, and it is this fact that I find most intriguing. It is another reason I decided to take a course in psychology of music, and I would advise those who have not already done so to consider doing some research on the cognitive findings in relation to music. If you'd really like more insight on why people like certain music, I'm sure doing the research would be helpful.

Does anyone here experience Galvanic Skin Response or "Goosebumps", "Chills" etc. when listening to Sakimoto's music? If not, have you ever experienced this with other music or no music at all? I for one get it alot from Sakimoto, it is a really nice experience. I should note that GSR is not merely the physical experience of goosebumps, but a heightened emotive state of mind in which one's brain is stimulated with a rush of mental imagery, sense of atmosphere, past memories, ecstasy, stress relief, and other related difficult to explain cognitive experiences.

I'll talk more about why I'm interested in this when I've received adequate responses or a show of interest.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I personally receive stress relief from Yasunori Mitsuda's music instead of Hitoshi Sakimoto's pieces. The type of mental imagery I feel from Sakimoto is more of a mode of stimulation, especially due to the complexities of his songs. The instruments that Sakimoto uses can no way be expressed as simple.

What I meant by rap was that I have a certain negative bias towards the vocal element of rap music (moreso because of the lyrics rather than the music itself), but the melodies of hip-hop and the style that it encompasses certainly works well with game music. The only thing that I believe is that game music should not be equal to hip-hop, and it certainly isn't.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Game music is hip hop and *alot* more, lyrics or not. This is not to challenge you on your bias, if you don't like the lyrics, that's great.

As for Mitsuda, yeah, I can see that too. I feel the same way, sometimes I like to kick back and throw on June Mermaid from time to time.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Daniel DeCastro

Does anyone here experience Galvanic Skin Response or "Goosebumps", "Chills" etc. when listening to Sakimoto's music? If not, have you ever experienced this with other music or no music at all? I for one get it alot from Sakimoto, it is a really nice experience. I should note that GSR is not merely the physical experience of goosebumps, but a heightened emotive state of mind in which one's brain is stimulated with a rush of mental imagery, sense of atmosphere, past memories, ecstasy, stress relief, and other related difficult to explain cognitive experiences.

To Sakimoto's music, no...I've enjoyed several pieces of his a great deal, but never to that extent. I have with plenty of music in general though, so I know what you're refering to, although it's generally a one-shot deal...The tracks where the effect lasts for more than a couple listens are few and far between (or at least require time to recharge between listens).

FELIPE NO

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Does anyone here experience Galvanic Skin Response or "Goosebumps", "Chills" etc. when listening to Sakimoto's music?

Yes, all the time.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Science of Art:

http://mixingmemory.blogspot.com/200...chandrans.html

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~dyer/ah336/p...cience-art.pdf

These articles may be of interest regarding what happens in the brain when having such an experience. The articles are from world famous scientist V.S. Ramachandran. If anyone watches the science channel, he's been on several shows regarding the "Brain Man" Daniel Tammet, an autistic savant, and a proponent of mirror neurons, discussions on the existence of god, etcetera. Here are a few more links if any are interested. You will see evidence of how Daniel reacts to numbers as you and I do to Sakimoto's music. Whatever is going on with us may very well be special, and I would advise that you continue to search for and enjoy the music that you do most. I believe doing so has helped to aid me in my music composition ability.

Brain Man:

http://science.discovery.com/converg...eogallery.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoNcmQydD7U

God and the Brain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z4B5...elated&search=

Ramachandran on Mirror Neurons and God:

http://beyondbelief2006.org/Watch/wa...eo=Session%204

http://beyondbelief2006.org/Watch/wa...o=Session%2010


I notice you are a Christian based on the link in your tag Piccolo. Well, I am an atheist, and we both seem to get GSR from Sakimoto, another interesting fact. The work Ramachandran has done shows that similar "peak" cognitive experiences involving GSR are found for reactions to the arts and spiritual experiences. I believe that when I as an atheist experience GSR, it is the same as when a theist experiences communion or contact with God, i.e. a "spiritual experience".

This is very interesting to me, so I thought I'd share that with you PiccoloNamek.

It is important to note that people experience varying degrees of GSR, and some are more sensitive to it than others, and some don't experience goosebumps at all. If you do experience GSR, I believe it is easier for you to identify what it is that you seek in music than those who do not. This is not to suggest that those who do not are unable to, I simply imagine that it would be more difficult. If you do, take advantage of it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Actually, I'm a very staunch atheist. I just work for the church. Odd, I know, but that's the way it is. The opportunity presented itself, and I took the job.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Hehe, I have a musician friend who is also atheist, and he performs for churches. Not unusual, but rare. This Reminds me of the scene in Star Ocean: TTEOT, when Cliff and Fayt are in a church, and Fayt says, "I thought you didn't believe in this stuff, why did we come to the church?" At this point, Cliff says, "It's because I enjoy the art." I thought that was one of my favorite RPG moments ever.

What are your duties there? Musician?

I wonder if Sakimoto is an atheist. Yoko Kanno already stated her non-religious status, most Japanese are rather secular. Would be interesting to find out.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I just find Sakimoto's style as interesting as it is moving. I like all the rhythm you find in his music and the melodic points seem to come at just the right times. Compared to much of the traditional orchestral stuff from western composers that some folks like to criticize, Sakimoto's music tends to have more pep, which for me puts him on top. You say that he has trouble writing incidental aka event music but I don't think it's that simple. As fate would have it, most of the games he has written music for haven't lent themselves to that kind of music, and so his style is often presented in epic form. However, when he does get the opportunity, he does a fine job. He just isn't as obvious about it as Uematsu or Mitsuda. For me Sakimoto's style makes his music unique and lasting. It's the kind of music that I can listen to over and over again not just because I like the way it sounds but also because the composition intrigues me. But to agree with what someone else said, I don't care much for these negative threads either. People have their reasons for liking or disliking whatever. Asking why someone feels differently is great, but I don't like the whole, "Sakimoto is in fact terrible...so how could anyone like him?" approach. It doesn't bode well for a discussion when the person starting it already has their mind made up.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Daniel DeCastro

This Reminds me of the scene in Star Ocean: TTEOT, when Cliff and Fayt are in a church, and Fayt says, "I thought you didn't believe in this stuff, why did we come to the church?" At this point, Cliff says, "It's because I enjoy the art."

I can really relate to him, then. Although I am an atheist, I really enjoy the solemn ritual of the traditional Anglican services my church holds.

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What are your duties there? Musician?

I am the sound tech. I usually run the sound board on sundays and for weddings or funerals, or any other special occasion. I also work for the church's side business, "A Word from the Lord" editing sermons for radio broadcast.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Just to chime in, Sakimoto has been a mixed bag for me at times, but much more appealing than disappointing to me. The most recent works I can compare would be FF12. I'll admit, it took a bit to grow used to the soundtrack, and I feel it has some very good tracks, and then some average ones. Melody is not always his strong point, but he is very good at making his work imaginative, as in you can form a picture almost. He can use a wide range of genres in his works, though classical is a strong point for him.

For Example, the track The Royal City of Rabanastre / Town Ward Upper Stratum, even without giving the title, I feel you could describe a town or village setting to go with the music, the battle tracks feel like battle tracks, dungeon themes fit the dungeons, so on and so forth. But I feel this adds to the music rather than take away from it. Sure, you would most likely like them more after playing the game, but you can enjoy his works alone as well.

I feel that he is one of the more unique composers in the VGM field, not for everybody, but I find it hard not to at least respect what he is trying to accomplish. But, opinions are opinions, everyone has them.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Josh_1

His music DOES have emotion when played by an actual orchestra. I believe that he needs to move out of synthesized music and go either into full orchestra or a mixture of synth and performed. His Opening and Ending themes for FFXII and his Staff Roll for Vagrant Story are all evidence that his music can be melodic and emotional. I find his intricacies the most amusing, as he has such a unique view of orchestration, and I'd say that's pretty good for someone who hasn't been formally taught how to orchestrate music .

To illustrate this point, I've created a comparison audio file between the synth version of the FF12 opening theme that was used for trailers, and the orchestral version that was used in the final game's opening FMV. The theme was edited from the trailer and parts of the music were placed in different places in the FMV. I simply took those parts and arranged them so that the synth version plays first, and then the orchestral. There should be around4 - 5 motifs in the mp3.

http://media.putfile.com/FF12-Openin...and-orchestral

I made this because I had a very recent discussion with my boyfriend, who wasn't too impressed with Sakimoto as well, although I believe that he needed to hear more of his work, and that his work will sound less "messy" as he called it if it was orchestrated instead of using synths. Unless the synths are Jeremy Soule's quality, Sakimoto should work with real orchestras more often.

RomeoXJuliet is another fine example of how his work just shines out when its performed by a real full orchestra.

FELIPE NO

I seem to be the exception even in Sakimoto supporters. When first hearing Vagrant Story's score I'm thrilled at its beauty. And when I listen to FFTactics, I can immediately distinguish his work from Iwata's. It's not that I don't like Iwata's work, I just found Iwata's work less... personal than Sakimoto's.

Sakimoto's music made me goosebumps. Just a seemingly random chord progression penned by him can do that for me. I can listen to a piece continuously for a hundred times and I don't feel bored in any way. I already knew I love dissonance and weird stuff etc because he's not the first controversial 'noisemakers' that I hear and love immediately (The first one is Elliot Goldenthal for his frenetic Final Fantasy TSW score which I still adore so much today, especially the most noisy Toccata and Dreamscape cue). Also, his music fits the game perfectly. To say I love it because it's complex is by no means correct; I did't have a clue why I love this music so much until much later.

To exaggerate a little bit, I think the experience when listening to Sakimoto's music is somewhat like staying with a girlfriend - I don't have one (and I'm male, despite the username ) - you know what I mean.

Admittedly, I myself also found FFXII OST a little bland, and out of place, in some places. Overuse of bitonality in a not so cool way is one of the reasons, IMO. And some repetitive orchestration techniques. Suspended cymbals come to mind, which is something he's been using for 4-5 years. I didn't hear that in Vagrant Story that often. I can still hear them in Romeo x Juliet, but I found it harder to notice. Maybe it has something to do with the synthesizer?

But somehow Sakimoto can always give me surprises. When I found the main theme of Grim Grimoire quite lacking, there's Opoona that sounds so promising; let alone Romeo x Juliet, whose orchestral pieces sounds so much like a Hollywood score, but with enough Sakimoto trademarks, and the chamber pieces are so lovely and emotional, even out of context.

But if you have the chance, you must listen to Vagrant Story's score thoroughly. And try NOT to think of a scene. I hope that would change you opinion just a little bit. :P

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

While we're on the subject of Grim Grimoire... a rip can be found here:http://www.sendspace.com/file/7gzu6e.

I think this is good enough to sate my Sakimoto hunger for a little while until Romeo X Juliet is released . Plus not only do you get to hear Sakimoto's music, but you will also hear Masaharu Iwata here as well. Enjoy!

Jam it back in, in the dark.

It looks like Sakimoto might be Vanillaware's main composer. Since he did the music for Grim Grimoire and Odin Sphere.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Has some kind of OST been released for Odin Sphere or is the game still in development.

EDIT (Grim Grimoire Link on Josh's post in dead - http://www.sendspace.com/file/9mpylg)

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

When you hear his "ending movie" of FFXII, what could you not like about that? The chord progressions used there are very nice not?

What truly astonished me was 3:53 where he used this incredible symmetry in chords. One melody going up, the bass going down.

la
sol si
fa la do
mi sol si re
re fa la do mi
mi sol si re
fa la do
sol si
la

You get it? This chord progression, he just invented one and has a patent on it. No other composer may use that chord progression anymore... (talking about symmetry, 100th post...)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?