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[General Discussion] MMO Design
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MTGNecro
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 04:50 PM Local time: Dec 4, 2009, 02:50 PM #1 of 18
MMO Design

Now I am sure that everyone who reads this at one time or another has at least dabbled in an MMO. Myself I have tried everything from old time MUDs, to WoW, to EVE, and a bunch of more obscure MMOs that never made the big time.

I have never been able to find an MMO that has really been for me. An MMO where the way it worked, the way it was structured, and in general the entire environment really fit what I was looking for. Guild Wars came close in its giant world. EVE comes close in the way that all of its content is user driven. But really, nothing out there truly clicks with me.

Assuming anything was possible, what would you look for in an MMO? Barring of course it was completely free.

I was never a fan of the linear progression model, and would want something akin to the elder scrolls series or EVE. You can train in whatever you want, become a master of your craft, but that doesn't require you to get to 80, grind raids until you are in full epics.

Aside from that I would be looking for something where the game adjusted to your skill/gear level. I.E. you wouldn't have 99% of the players clumped in one area because it was the endgame area, but rather all areas had something to offer to the endgame player.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
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Kolba
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 08:55 PM Local time: Dec 5, 2009, 02:55 AM 2 #2 of 18
MMOs have been ruined since World of Warcraft. WoW made everything easy, because the majority of gamers are the kind who want their hand to be held.

In EverQuest, pre-WoW, we had something called a corpse run. If you died, you dropped every item you owned on a corpse, and you had to retrieve that corpse by hook or by crook. This would often mean running half way across the world map, running like the clappers through dangerous territory with not a single item of cloth or steel between you and your next negative exp hit, should you stray too close to that wandering orc and be killed once more. What if you dropped your corpse in the depths of a dungeon? Good luck getting that out. You'd either have your guild mates help out, or you'd have to wait until another party cleared the path for you. Players could take days trying to retrieve a corpse.

See, it meant there was this thing called risk. Dying could mean everything, and playing the game could be tense. Y'know, exciting. If you had to cross some dangerous territory to get to some destination or another, it was an edge of the seat experience.

Back then there was no easy way of skipping out huge swathes of land, because there wasn't the huge prevalence of ports that there are for todays lazy gamer. Travel took time, and reaching a new land truly meant something, because you could feel the distance travelled, through the time it took and the danger evaded. MMO game worlds gave a true impression of variety and vastness.

Can you imagine this in todays MMO? The typical MMO players face would crumple at the merest hint of such a punishing experience. "If I'm not careful and I die I might lose everything?! You're telling me there's some kind of PENALTY for death?! or "I have to walk all that way on foot?! And then I have to - let me see if I've got this straight - I have to WAIT for a boat to arrive, and then sit on it and WAIT for it to make its crossing?! Like how boat travel actually is!? Can't I just teleport there?".

When WoW came out it molly coddled the gamer. Since the majority of gamers are of the casual breed (casual not in terms of hours played, casual in the sense of fearing hardship; challenge), everyone of course flocked to WoW, and it gained the huge market share it has today. And the only way to eat into this pie is for other MMOs to play copycat and also pander to the casual gamer and make their games easy.

Gamers like me are a niche market. Darkfall shows promise in showing MMOs can target a niche market and be profitable, but it's still early days for that game yet. For the time being I consider the MMORPG, in the sense I once knew it, to be utterly dead.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 10:43 PM Local time: Dec 4, 2009, 08:43 PM #3 of 18
I have limited experience with MMOs, with Final Fantasy XI being the one I played the longest (three months). I think the genre is sort of at an impasse with the focus on grinding and more grinding, but I have no idea how to address that.

One thing I've sometimes thought about is something Devo mentioned-- epic battles and player vs. player. Final Fantasy XI did an... okay job with PVP, but their focus is more on players competing against each other through friendly sports. Not very intense. As far as epic battles go though, it seems to've done it right-- Assault for taking a small, elite team of players and breaking into enemy fortresses, or Campaign for fighting beastmen for control of chunks of territory.

So, I guess I would like to combine epic, large-scale battles with PVP. You'd have to put restrictions on the kind of equipment you could wear as well as organize players based on their levels, but it should be doable. Players would choose sides and fight one another for control of some sort of territory that would not be arbitrary (ie, an important place that offered some sort of incentive for nations to keep possession of it). Probably not major cities, but perhaps fortresses, trade routes, or the like.

Of course, people would have the ability to opt out and do their own thing, but I would like more MMOs to have epic PVP that held consequences for all players-- sure, skip out on fighting for your nation, but be prepared to deal with the particulars that ensue when your enemy wins.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Kolba
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Old Dec 5, 2009, 10:00 AM Local time: Dec 5, 2009, 04:00 PM #4 of 18
Not to mention real PVP is pretty much dead since there are so many hilarious advantages (gear wise, level wise). I went into WoW just wanting huge epic battles, instead they instituted arena bullshit. If I wanted to play a small competitive twitch game bullshit I'd load up an FPS that does it loads better. It's all about grinding battlegrounds for gear (not actually playing them), losing quickly if that means honor/marks faster and playing in a gametype that only heightens the imbalances between classes. Their most recent 'open pvp area' is only open every couple of hours and even with the restrictions on numbers it still lags like a bitch.
Yeah arena type pvp is a massive example of risk removal. In EQ pvp there was no such thing as a safe zone. Players could be stalked in their own home city by a lone assassin who was brave enough. You had to be constantly alert and always watching over your shoulder. Just how it should be.

EQ pvp was balanced too. As long as your resists reached a certain minimum, you stood a fighting chance against people who could be 5-10 levels higher than you with better equipment, provided you edged them in pure skill.

It's funny because Verant Interactive didn't give a fuck about pvp, so the fact that the games pve mechanics translated so well to pvp with very little tweaking was something of a coincidence.

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Final Fantasy Phoneteen
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Old Dec 5, 2009, 11:43 AM Local time: Dec 5, 2009, 09:43 AM #5 of 18
I agree that this hand-fed crap is dumb, but some of the stuff you're mentioning might be too far in the other direction.

Interaction with others in a massive online setting should be intense, but not so intense that you don't have time to relax and enjoy yourself. I can't say I like the idea assassins being able to stalk me even in the safest of havens, or the idea that everything I own drops onto a corpse I must find. There should be risk --a fairly large amount-- but not so much that it's... soul-crushing.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Kolba
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Old Dec 5, 2009, 11:02 PM Local time: Dec 6, 2009, 05:02 AM #6 of 18
Well I didn't quite mean every item you owned. That's where the bank system came in. Some players were even prudent enough to store a whole backup equipment set in there to aid in the recovery of a corpse.

And I exaggerated the prominence of the assassin. There weren't enough player killers with the audacity and guile to infiltrate an enemy town and attack from within to make it a common occurrence. But it could happen. They weren't hard coded out of existence. It made for a more dynamic and player driven game.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Kolba
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Old Dec 5, 2009, 11:31 PM Local time: Dec 6, 2009, 05:31 AM #7 of 18
Whilst we're cataloging the ways WoW ruined mmorpgs, how about outlawing cross faction communication? Lets make a game in a genre where the whole point is thousands of players being in the same universe, having a shared experience as part of a global community. Now lets make it so half the players can't talk to the other half of the players.

Communication is for fostering rivalries as well as alliances. The very fact that an opposing player can curse me after I've killed him is what seperates him from being another characterless npc drone. It's the heart and soul of pvp.

But nah, let's throw all that out cause someone might be called a naughty word once and get offended.

FELIPE NO
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Old Dec 6, 2009, 12:03 AM #8 of 18
I disagree. If there's one thing Wow did right, it was making sure that I didn't have to read what the gankers said to me after I was killed, or what those I killed had to say.

Trash talk is good, to a certain level, but it really only works well in a skill-based setting, where you die because you're actually a worse player. Or a laid-back social setting, of course. Also, considering the types of people who play Wow, I'm all for barriers of communication except with those I actually want to talk to, hah.


In terms of the whole dying thing, I think a lot of designers in the game industry should learn from Demon Souls. One of the things that often comes up in MMO comparisons is exactly the phenomenon that Kolba is talking about: the complete lack of risk in Wow, or the opposite, the excessively punishing risk in traditional ones. I for one prefer the lack of risk to the excessive punishment, but I can see the attraction in both; it's all about target audience.

But the designers of Demon Souls successfully took a step back and reexamined the meaning and purpose of death in games. Instead of looking at it as purely a setback or a punishment, they gave it meaning in several other ways. And I think that's the stance MMO developers should adapt to try and tap the best of both extremes. Find a way to make death meaningful and impactful, without simply punishing the player.

Easier said than done, of course. And there might be an argument that games like EQ DO create meaningful punishments, which is a point I could concede. Ah well. I figured I'd throw the concept out there.

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Fluffykitten McGrundlepuss
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Old Dec 6, 2009, 04:15 PM Local time: Dec 6, 2009, 10:15 PM #9 of 18
I've never really had the time or inclination for MMO's but I do enjoy loot grinding games. What I prefer though is getting the occasional bit of decent loot at random whilst playing the game normally, grinding is about the most boring thing ever.

I'd be more inclined to play MMO's if it was possible to enjoy the game and be part of the community without having to either grind for a million hours or be part of some bullshit clan and turn up at specified times for "raids". I don't really see the point of getting all the best gear anyway because once you've spent the hundreds of hours to get a ton of gear, then what? You PvP someone else who's got all the gear and the fight is as evenly matched as two brand new characters going at it. Obviously there are varieties of builds but the internet being what it is, those are common knowledge all too quickly.

It'd be nice to have an MMO where you could do as well being a random healer as carving your way through millions of monsters. What I'd really like is a game where your character morphed into some super powerful being if you played for long enough without grinding.

These things possibly exist already, I've not really looked into it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
MTGNecro
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Old Dec 6, 2009, 06:32 PM Local time: Dec 6, 2009, 04:32 PM #10 of 18
Right now I am looking for a new MMO, one that actually has risk of losing something.

Originally Posted by Shin
I'd be more inclined to play MMO's if it was possible to enjoy the game and be part of the community without having to either grind for a million hours or be part of some bullshit clan and turn up at specified times for "raids". I don't really see the point of getting all the best gear anyway because once you've spent the hundreds of hours to get a ton of gear, then what? You PvP someone else who's got all the gear and the fight is as evenly matched as two brand new characters going at it. Obviously there are varieties of builds but the internet being what it is, those are common knowledge all too quickly.
To me this is how WoW has become. Welfare epics, carebear PvP, and a whole lot of people who bitch at Blizz while still paying their monthly fee. Nice eh?

I look for all of these things in an MMO, even if it is an older MMO (I played AO for a little bit recently), and really just am looking for something like that to play. I enjoy the social aspect, but if I wanted to play the glorified chat room that WoW has become, I would stalk small children over Yahoo.

Okay...I really wouldn't, but you guys get the point.

I have been looking for an experience that punished you losing enough to make you take it seriously (for a game), and have found myself returning to ADOM and Nethack. Are there any MMOs, new or old, that really stood out in the aspects we have mentioned?

There's nowhere I can't reach.
I forgot my old sig...
DarkMageOzzie
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Old Dec 7, 2009, 07:00 AM #11 of 18
Personally, I don't need to look for anything in an MMO anymore because City of Heroes has just about everything right that I want. I'm still going to try Star Wars: Old Republic but the reasons I like CoH so much is because...

Customization and it's not attached to gear. You pick what you want to look like and are only limited by the number of choices which is constantly being added to.

They've made the game incredibly solo friendly, but at the same time if you REALLY want a challenge there are a ton of adjustments you can make to mission difficulty. If you really want to now, you can make a mission spawn as many enemies as it would for a full party when you're by yourself.

And now, players are even able to make their own content with the Mission Architect. For me, it'll be hard for any MMO to top those things and the only reason I'm going to try Old Republic is because I want to play a Star Wars MMO that isn't crap.

I do want to say that I do still miss the old days of Everquest but they're gone and it's obvious we're never going to get them back. So we gotta make the best of what we do have available.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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RacinReaver
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Old Dec 7, 2009, 01:44 PM Local time: Dec 7, 2009, 11:44 AM #12 of 18
Oh come on, if you're looking for real death penalties you should play Hardcore in Diablo 2. Who doesn't like losing a character in Hell difficulty due to a random shot of lag?

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Agt Cody Banks
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Old Dec 10, 2009, 09:59 PM Local time: Dec 10, 2009, 06:59 PM 1 #13 of 18
MMO shouldnt let players go through other players. I mean if i can't taunt a player of my healer, at least i could block his way. And Friendly fire would be awesome in World of Warcraft. If someone gets in the line of sight, they should be able to be hit by that spell.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Kolba
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Old Dec 13, 2009, 07:27 PM Local time: Dec 14, 2009, 01:27 AM #14 of 18
Originally Posted by Agt Cody Banks
MMO shouldnt let players go through other players. I mean if i can't taunt a player of my healer, at least i could block his way. And Friendly fire would be awesome in World of Warcraft. If someone gets in the line of sight, they should be able to be hit by that spell.
Yeah, this is really basic stuff. EQ had collision detection. Pretty sure Darkfall has friendly fire, since it uses FPS style mechanics for its combat system.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Ernge Juice
 
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Old Dec 13, 2009, 11:02 PM #15 of 18
Personally, I liked Ragnarok the most of limited MMOs I've played. I liked the fact that there were many different combination of stats and equipment to fit a lot of play styles. But it fell due to the many reasons other MMOs fail, ridiculous items a very limited number of people could get and a crazy economy that anyone new had an extremely rough time. It to had grinding issues, but I don't really mind that.

If I were to start playing a new MMO I would look for something more of a chromehounds model (I assume there are other games that do similar, but this game stood out for me). I liked the idea that you had opposing countries that fought for land and was directly related to how you played against an actual opponent rather than how long you grind in a certain area. Plus the idea that the battling countries weren't just fighting for land as a side battle to a greater evil. For example, in FF11 I found the "battling countries" to not really have much to do rather than whether you can spawn/save in an area. But then again I hadn't played much past lvl 30 in that game.

FELIPE NO
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