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Misogynyst Gynecologist
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Old Nov 21, 2006, 01:19 PM #51 of 221
Originally Posted by ElectricSheep
Shit, you can hear on a CD when someone was making too much noise and heckling Dane Cook, he didn't totally flip out.
The major difference is that Dane Cook is never, ever funny.

George Carlin memorablity ripped a heckler apart during one of this stand-up acts, screaming that he would kick the guy's ass, fuck his mom in the ass and hope his kids died in a car fire. Yet NOW or children's rights advocates didn't flip their shit over this in the 70s.

Know why? Just like those guys in the balcony - they deserved what they got. The only stigma is that Richards called them EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE, sadly. "You're a nigger" is a terrible thing to say - but BLACK PEOPLE who are in CHEAP SEATS and TALKING SHIT is pretty goddamned stereotypical of NIGGERS just like BEING HORRIFIED about a racial slur not pointed at them is stereotypical WHITE.

God help us. A jew berates a black man. At this pace, dogs and cats will be living together in no time.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Nov 21, 2006, 01:43 PM Local time: Nov 21, 2006, 12:43 PM #52 of 221
Originally Posted by LeHah
The major difference is that Dane Cook is never, ever funny.
Agreed. The reason he calmly told the guy security would escort him out is that he lacks the wit to shoot the man down. Infantile noises and generally being a jerk-off usually won't silence a heckler.

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Old Nov 21, 2006, 01:46 PM #53 of 221
Quote:
Minion, you've never taken a class on gender, race and language have you?
With all due respect, that sounds like a lot of mumbo-jumbo. But if the beast is in it's "last throes" as you say, that implies it's death is at least inevitable, if not warranted. I'm just hoping that happens within my lifetime (or next week maybe).

How ya doing, buddy?
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Old Nov 21, 2006, 02:10 PM Local time: Nov 21, 2006, 01:10 PM #54 of 221
Originally Posted by Minion
With all due respect, that sounds like a lot of mumbo-jumbo. But if the beast is in it's "last throes" as you say, that implies it's death is at least inevitable, if not warranted. I'm just hoping that happens within my lifetime (or next week maybe).
No, it doesn't mean it's death is inevitable. What it means is that the culture has taken the word and toyed with it. Either it will become accepted and part of the social dialogue, or it will be rejected and put on a shelf to never be used again. The point is that we can converse about the word nigger. We can have dialogue about it. We couldn't do that a while back. Not a real discussion, at any rate. The problem is that there are still people who treat words as if they have no power, which is false, or they treat words as if they're the only source of power, which is also false. And sometimes people say things like black people use nigger amongst themselves as a way to personally spite them, as a white man, because you can't use it and they can. That's a whole different sort of animal.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?


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Old Nov 22, 2006, 01:45 AM #55 of 221
Originally Posted by Minion
With all due respect, that sounds like a lot of mumbo-jumbo.
Everything sounds like mumbo-jumbo when summarized in a few lines. I'm seconding the above two posts and telling you to fucking school more. You should not be so proud of your own ignorance.

FELIPE NO
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 08:52 AM #56 of 221
The two guys who Richards called out were on the Today show this morning. Apparently, they're attempting legal action against him, using a screaming hatchet-faced female lawyer that looks so lesbian she could chase most lesbians away.

Matt Lauer, who I find entertaining but pretty cloying, brought up the point that as terrible as Richard's outburst was - wasn't it free speech. And one of the two guys said "I think free speech needs to have a limit".

I find that infinitely more offensive than someone screaming racial slurs.

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Old Nov 22, 2006, 09:43 AM #57 of 221
Originally Posted by LeHah
The two guys who Richards called out were on the Today show this morning. Apparently, they're attempting legal action against him, using a screaming hatchet-faced female lawyer that looks so lesbian she could chase most lesbians away.

Matt Lauer, who I find entertaining but pretty cloying, brought up the point that as terrible as Richard's outburst was - wasn't it free speech. And one of the two guys said "I think free speech needs to have a limit".

I find that infinitely more offensive than someone screaming racial slurs.
Offensive (kind of racist in playful manner):
Spoiler:
Hey! Everyone jump the bandwagon. The double-standard of this word is gay already, but being like "I've been called nigga by a white man so that gives me the right to sue!"... I swear they are just making the image blacks look worse (or up to sterotype). It's almost as bad as the Wendy's lady.

"And one of the two guys said "I think free speech needs to have a limit"."

Further proves their stupidity and the idea that they probably DESERVED that outburst.

You know I'm Chinese, and white people slammed us sorta back in the day. Sure it wasn't slavery, but it was indeed opression... yet we fucking got over it.

God. How long will (the majority of) blacks ride slavery? Be more Jewish, please.

BTW I'm no racist, although I get fucking frustrated sometimes when I see people from all ethnic groups ride the sterotypes cause they don't have half a free mind.


Jam it back in, in the dark.
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 09:51 AM #58 of 221
Originally Posted by a lurker
Everything sounds like mumbo-jumbo when summarized in a few lines. I'm seconding the above two posts and telling you to fucking school more. You should not be so proud of your own ignorance.
You would take any opportunity to denigrate me anyway, so your opinion couldn't be less relevant.

Under whose authority is this curriculum being developed? Have you even been to college? If my college experience (which is very similar to everyone else's that I've spoken too) is any indication of the quality of this kind of class, then it is probably a lot of bullshit. You can't teach a thing like this in a classroom. It's something you have to know from experience. When people try to make a study of it, that's when it becomes bullshit. But you go ahead and believe that learning something in a classroom a) makes you understand it and b) confers to you any useful knowledge in the first place and enjoy your smug self satisfaction for mastering the intricacies of "gender, race and language" from a sum total of approximately 14 hour long lectures.

How ya doing, buddy?
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 10:36 AM #59 of 221
Originally Posted by LeHah
However, it should also be said that the word was used properly. Michael Richards wanted to insult those people and struck at a base nerve with a lot of people - not just blacks. The word is there to be insulting
That probably sums up my opinion on this when I heard about this Monday morning. I'm not a fan of Michael Richards, nor did I watch Seinfeld, so this won't affect my opinion of his as an actor because I never really had one in the first place. It was a poor choice of words on his point.

As you've pointed out, he used the words in their negative context. Very promptly after the outburst started, it became apparent that it was beyond a joke.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 11:06 AM Local time: Nov 22, 2006, 01:36 PM #60 of 221
either way, it's funny how he tries to apologize like nothing's his fault, why can't these people just come out and say" yeah you know what I said it, and I don't deny it, so blame me as you will for my stupidity

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Old Nov 22, 2006, 11:10 AM #61 of 221
Originally Posted by a lurker
Everything sounds like mumbo-jumbo when summarized in a few lines. I'm seconding the above two posts and telling you to fucking school more. You should not be so proud of your own ignorance.
I think the problem isn't Minion but the fact that you are all kids (and yes I'll name names here, Deni, Lehah, Lurker) and are still moved by words, like nigger. Grow up. Any sophisticated, educated person will be able to take a racial slur, and just brush it aside. You just look down on those people who have to stoop so low... that's about it. You don't take the time to make an argument of it, or to blow it up. Who gives a shit if they are close minded? It's not our job to save ever single damn person. I think Minion is coming from that perspective "above".

Originally Posted by Denicalis
The problem is that there are still people who treat words as if they have no power
Words have power man, but words like this... only move idiots who can be provoked by such childishness.

And you really don't need an education for this stuff unless you grew up in a closed closed closed white town with your parents constantly reminding you of white power. It is legit to make a study of it, and to analyze outcomes of people, but it really is something you develope with personal expereince... and you know it.

But back on topic, if you were heckled by a few black guys I bet you'd have the phrase "fucking niggers" crossing your mind. Mike just had the balls to say it... it's about damn time.

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 11:15 AM #62 of 221
Originally Posted by rocketdog
I think the problem isn't Minion but the fact that you are all kids (and yes I'll name names here, Deni, Lehah, Lurker) and are still moved by words, like nigger.
I'm pretty sure that the only people on this board who are older than me are Julia, Alice and someone on staff. How old are you anyway?

As for that word, I throw racial slurs out like beads at Mardi Gras. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to my posts in the past. I'm not moved by the words myself - but to say them is to obviously make a reaction. Thats the reason we have a spoken language - to get a point across. And if screaming "N" is one of them - then so be it.

How ya doing, buddy?
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 11:19 AM #63 of 221
Originally Posted by LeHah
Thats the reason we have a spoken language - to get a point across. And if screaming "N" is one of them - then so be it.
Actually, thanks. You just made something big click for me You're right in the sense that word has so much image and hype, that if he threw that word out so willingly that is just asking for it. I suppose he could have just been like "GET THE FUCK OUT." Hmm... maybe I should rethink.

Originally Posted by LeHah
I'm pretty sure that the only people on this board who are older than me are Julia, Alice and someone on staff.
Not directed toward you, but in my experience with age comes wisdom... for SOME people...

FELIPE NO
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 11:32 AM #64 of 221
It's not really age that brings about wisdom. It's more experience and a generally inquisitive mind. I know people twice my age who are absolute children and simpletons. And the "elders" of this board are hardly an example of what it is to be a grown up.

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Old Nov 22, 2006, 01:47 PM Local time: Nov 22, 2006, 12:47 PM #65 of 221
Yeah, Squirrel's about the only person worth looking up to in this sense in the bunch.

But yeah, I learned (somewhere) a while ago about black people and nigger. Like what lurker said; saying it among themselves makes it seem less, a joke. A white person saying it empowers the word and brings back old bitterness among the blacks... Even if the majority of them nowadays don't even have grandparents that went through slavery. OH BUT THE THINGS THAt WENT DOWN BEFORE THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT... What about it?

Jam it back in, in the dark.
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 02:08 PM Local time: Nov 22, 2006, 11:08 AM #66 of 221
Good god Reverend Al Sharpton's talking about this on CNN. I hate his fucking ass and he's an embarassment to black people everywhere. I really don't know why they keep letting him on television, representing the black community.

Anyway, apparently Kramer apologized to Al Sharpton. Why, I'm not too sure. The biggest offense I've found is that I can't really watch Seinfeld in the same light, but at the same time I don't really care. What he said didn't really offend me much, since the guys who said the shit deserved it.

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Old Nov 22, 2006, 02:12 PM #67 of 221
I guess that's the question, isn't it? Is there really anyone ou there who actually deserves to be called a nigger? It's obviously wrong to brand an entire race with an epithet like that, but what about individuals?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 02:33 PM #68 of 221
Originally Posted by Minion
Is there really anyone ou there who actually deserves to be called a nigger?
A nigger is to a black man as white trash is to a white man.

There are many black people who are worthy of respect - these are people that work hard, go to their jobs every day, have the self-respect to look presentable and try to do their best.

A nigger is someone who stands in line for food stamps, who's cheap with money and generous with his dick. He's tasteless and classless. He cares more about his clothes than he does about his child support check. Similarities with white trash are very obvious.

Certainly, there are various shades of grey to this but in the end, I think everyone knows the difference between the two.

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Old Nov 22, 2006, 02:35 PM #69 of 221
But you can call whoever you want white trash. That's the difference. No one will ever make as big a deal about ANY other racial epithet - any epithet whatsoever, really.

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 02:38 PM #70 of 221
Originally Posted by Minion
If my college experience (which is very similar to everyone else's that I've spoken too) is any indication of the quality of this kind of class, then it is probably a lot of bullshit. You can't teach a thing like this in a classroom. It's something you have to know from experience.
It's time again for Choose Your Own Response!
If you're an obnoxious pedant with no creativity, go to response 3.
If you're a caustic asshole, go to response 1.
If you want to make a ghost of a point that will be ignored anyway (in between passive-agressive racist arguments), go to response 2.

1) As a white man, I'm sure you learned all the effects of racism you need to know from off the streets.

2) You're using ancedotal evidence to back up your claim that something you never studied is bullshit.

3) "I've spoken too"? Are you even for real.

Double Post:
Originally Posted by rocketdog
I think the problem isn't Minion but the fact that you are all kids (and yes I'll name names here, Deni, Lehah, Lurker) and are still moved by words, like nigger. Grow up. Any sophisticated, educated person will be able to take a racial slur, and just brush it aside.
Aren't you the kid who taught himself classical music from the Sheet Music forum, and now bitch about every girl who dates you because they aren't as refined or cultured as you?

I would give you a better response, but you ask for ego stroking on the internet. You don't deserve better.

I'm just bitter because you're right, though. I would never countance someone saying the n word in my presence.

How ya doing, buddy?

Last edited by Sarag; Nov 22, 2006 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Automerged additional post.
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 02:54 PM #71 of 221
Quote:
an obnoxious pedant with no creativity... a caustic asshole...
I have to admit, you know yourself well. If only you could decipher a point.

I'm not saying *I* know anything. I'm saying there are things you can't learn in a classroom. Do you understand that? Or maybe this argument stems from your relative lack of real social experience? I'm just trying to sort things out here.

You don't need to learn "from the streets". Again, it seems as if you either didn't actually go to college, or you were a shut in the whole time. I was able to bond with people during college that I would never meet under any other circumstances in this country. African-Americans were not only present, but any American was viewed as a bit mundane in light of my school's ethnic strata. I don't honestly know how I could have learned more except by actually being black and growing up in harlem or detroit. I sure as shit wouldn't learn anything that I've learned from real interaction with human beings in any classroom.

How ya doing, buddy?

Last edited by Minion; Nov 22, 2006 at 02:56 PM.
Skexis
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 03:04 PM Local time: Nov 22, 2006, 03:04 PM #72 of 221
My critical theory class was talking about 3rd wave feminism the other day, and somehow we got on the topic of race. My professor said that the reason he couldn't believe in something like reverse racism was because there still is a very real differential between the traditional white male power elite and the black work force.

I dunno if I agree with that entirely, but Richards made it a racial issue to begin with, when he could have called them a variety of other, more accurate insults.

Originally Posted by LeHah
A nigger is to a black man as white trash is to a white man.

Certainly, there are various shades of grey to this but in the end, I think everyone knows the difference between the two.
I think you know that, in the end, these two are intrinsically not the same. People don't call each other white trash when they have nothing else to fall back on.

The concept of ideology to begin with involves calling someone by their position within that ideology. If you call someone a nigger, then it says you've stopped thinking in terms of individuals, and are looking for class labels, the same way you might call someone poor. It's not just derrogatory. It's a way of saying to a person, "You are insignificant because of your position."

When all Richards had to say was "Nigger," he was essentially telling the audience that that's all he needed to say. And I don't think for a minute that's true.

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Old Nov 22, 2006, 03:10 PM Local time: Nov 22, 2006, 05:40 PM #73 of 221
Originally Posted by Denicalis
So shut the fuck up if you don't know.

Was it funny? Not really. The interrupting the white man line was pretty good, but over all it was pretty fucking unfunny. But that's mostly because Michael Richards is mostly unfunny. However, the black guy did call him a cracker-ass. That's a racial slur too. Someone yell at that ignant ass nigga.

Also, requesting that Balcony Heckler be curbstomped for stealing my Muppets av/sig combo.






You fucking biter.
dude, calm the fuck down. I didn't steal anything, I was intro'd to this site by a friend here, and just chose something at random. I'd have to be pretty bored to search through a forum just to steal someone else' av and sig

Jam it back in, in the dark.


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Old Nov 22, 2006, 03:31 PM #74 of 221
Originally Posted by Skexis
when he could have called them a variety of other, more accurate insults.
Black people buying cheap seats, talking shit and then playing victim? Jesus Christ, all you need is a welfare line and it's the very definition of nigger!

Originally Posted by Skexis
I think you know that, in the end, these two are intrinsically not the same. People don't call each other white trash when they have nothing else to fall back on.
As a retort - you're correct in that I've never called a black man white trash. He is obviously NOT white, hence the word NIGGER.

They are very much the same thing, though I suppose racial class may make "white trash" a little less insulting than nigger.

Originally Posted by Skexis
If you call someone a nigger, then it says you've stopped thinking in terms of individuals, and are looking for class labels, the same way you might call someone poor.
I call people poor all the time. I also call people WTP all the time (White Trash Poor).

From a first person account, I can tell you that I'd much sooner call a black man a nigger than I would call him a bitch. Black men HATE that word and I can tell you they reacted way worse to being called that then the "N" word.

I call people poor though. Obviously, I may be an exception because I try to use every racial slur I can find - nigger, wetback, slant-eyes, zipperhead, Carl Winslow, paddy wagon - because its as empowering to use those words properly as it is to use words like apotheosis or dodecaphonicism. Obviously, talking about twelve tone and shouting PORCH MONKEY are not the same in the eyes of others - but they both show you know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Skexis
It's not just derrogatory. It's a way of saying to a person, "You are insignificant because of your position."
I think if you're getting called out on a stereotype class issue and you're getting offended, you don't have any right to leave your house. People judge people anyway, they may not say it but we're all guilty. Why do you think so many white women have an automatic aversion to blacks? (I can't say, but I've seen it way more than I can think of)

Originally Posted by Skexis
When all Richards had to say was "Nigger," he was essentially telling the audience that that's all he needed to say. And I don't think for a minute that's true.
No. No no no. See, while Richards was probably wrong in SCREAMING that word, he was absolutely right in calling them nigger. If you were to do a farce about black people - how would you do it? Cheap black people with 6 kids, living on welfare and food stamps and driving a brand new Audi.

As an aside, after seeing the two gentleman who were called "nigger" on the news this morning, they actually were NOT very "niggerish". The one who talked more was very well spoken, even though I largely disagreed with his remarks about victimization. Both were well dressed and you can tell that it wasn't that someone gave them a collared shirt.

However, the idea that blacks are bitching about victimization from a JEW of all people is not lost on me. Outside of the Irish, is there any other culture in history that has been more shit upon than the Jews? Don't get me wrong - I am not attempting to play down slavery or what-have-you - but have we gotten to the point where two victimized races are going at it? Isn't this one of those things that you'd find at the ends of the universe or something?

There's nowhere I can't reach.
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Old Nov 22, 2006, 03:35 PM Local time: Nov 22, 2006, 12:35 PM #75 of 221
Originally Posted by Minion
But you can call whoever you want white trash. That's the difference. No one will ever make as big a deal about ANY other racial epithet - any epithet whatsoever, really.
That's the point, isn't it? If you're going to insult them, hard and fast without much quick wit to back you up, you might as well pick the one or two words that have the deepest cultural significance. That's the fastest way to put you back in control of most peoples' emotions. (Compare cheat slut for many women, faggot to most men.) Words are a game of power in these situations, and trying to ban a word in a misguided attempt to ban hate only gives the word a great deal of extra power.

Not that culturally enforced civility is such a bad thing. But applying it to a handful of random words, isn't exactly a useful way of going about it.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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