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I'm not disagreeing worth you on everything Adamgain, but what I'm saying is that I don't think its the right thing to do to try to bring in western style democracy to these countries, and I think thats what Bush is trying to do. The idea that the Iraqis adopted a constitution was cited in America as some kind of big step towards all kinds of freedoms, but I think that was a false premise.
About the Muslim attitudes, face it, there is tons of Muslim outrage towards any actions, real or imagined, conducted by the west, but beheadings, bombings etc. are all reasonably tolerated by most Muslims. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
How ya doing, buddy? |
eh, we don't do it by beheading, but rather lethal injection with a sterile needle. and we usually have a legitimate trial and a lengthy appeals process. it's a wee bit more civilized than the mid-east.
I was speaking idiomatically. |
It's still murder, though. And I still think countries should be allowed to make their own laws; however uncivilized they might seem to us - it's none of our business.
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
Secondly, I will take severe difference with your opinion on suicide bombings. They are utterly deplored in most countries with stable governments. Just look at the hotel bombings in Amman or multiple attacks in Saudi Arabia. As always, they are applauded by the minority that sponsors them, but the populations always have revolted against them. In both countries though, its a harder thing to notice from the outside than the inside, but after living in Saudi Arabia through some of the deadliest attacks, I can safely say that its not something the countries people condone.
FELIPE NO |
As in every society, the radical/fundamentalist groups tend to be the loudest. No different in Europe or America. How ya doing, buddy? |
Jam it back in, in the dark. |
I don't think he's talking about capital punishment, but rather militant beheadings, like in Iraq, which are done to shock and outrage. As a side note, it is thought that the disembodied head remains "alive" for as much as 15 seconds following the extraction. Gruesome thought. I agree with you that Islamic countries are not the least bit interested in westernizing - partly this is because westernization is synonymous with the throw away parts of our culture, and not our more cherished values. But modernization is a must. If we are ever going to reach a detente, let alone common ground in our ever widening global theology/culture war, muslims must take a few steps towards our millenium. In this way, it is a shame about Saddam Huessien. Sure, he was a bellicose psychopath, but before the Iran-Iraq war he was the most progressive leader in the middle east and did a lot of good for Iraq overall. THe history of western involvement the middle east/ west asia over the last 70 years or so, reads like a Three Stooges script. We never missed an opportunity to fuck ourselves. So much of what we do now is simply trying to fix the mis-steps made with an earlier policy. There's nowhere I can't reach. |
Frankly, I'd rather get executed in a beheading like that then via a hanging. After all, hangings have a higher rate of failure.
The Middle East really is trying not to Westernize, and so far has done a decent job. Petrodollars are also helping greatly in ensuring though that they can modernize, and frankly, I'm extremely impressed with how well the boom is being managed this time compared to the last where it was almost entirely squandered.
This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
Adamgain..i gather that you are a Muslim, and I'm glad you're free to practice and defend your religion, but saying that beheading is a more humane form of execution....me thinks your defense strays into the whacko zone here. The videos I've seen of the beheadings, done in Allahs name by the way, seemed very gruesome to me. Disclaimer: The above post wasn't meant to include and or offend ALL Muslims. I've found that mentioning ANY negative about Muslims soon gets one branded as an anti Islamic hate monger. I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
It's unfortunate that 'freedom' 'democracy' and 'morals' have all been lumped into the same thing. They have the freedom to chose, by democratic means what laws they wish to uphold and live by. That they do not reflect the laws that you or I would like to chose does not have any bearing on their having freedom and democracy. I was speaking idiomatically.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
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The appeal to relativism is so weak. So we're just going to accept hundreds of thousands of Darfurians dead or displaced because it's acceptable in their culture, and we shouldn't intervene in other cultures because that's bad (unless, of course, we're dolling out hundreds of millions of dollars in aid with no strings attached). Puh-leeze. Human rights are universal and don't apply to just one part of the planet. Human dignity transcends borders, and Westerners should be enforcing those values wherever we can, particularly in countries where we are nation building and where we expect those countries to live up to international human rights standards.
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
How ya doing, buddy? |
As for outrageous, I still scratch my head thinking about the capital crime in Pakistan of "insulting the prophet". What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? |
Almost all if not all (I'd need to read the document, im going from memory) the mentions in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are embodied by Islam, its merely an issue of interpretation. The problem with interpretation is that radicals tend to scream louder, and theirs has taken over. Wait a little though, it's slowly changing as the ME comes to terms with its own terrorist threat. Jam it back in, in the dark. |
Double Post:
"Freeing an oppressed people", is exactly what happened. They are no longer being forced to live by Sharia law (or one interpretation thereof), instead they are chosing to live by the values they hold dear. Just as most western countries chose to live by Judeo/Christian values. There's nowhere I can't reach.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Last edited by PUG1911; Mar 30, 2006 at 04:11 PM.
Reason: Automerged double post.
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Wesker:I guraantee you that there no. of gays are more in Chriastians/Westerners than extremists in Muslims.
Going by above rule, i am not stupid to declare all chriastians=Gays. Change your fucking attitude towards Muslims ,you are reeking of hatred even if you dont say so. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Last edited by Sexninja; Mar 30, 2006 at 04:48 PM.
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Also, last I heard, being homosexual is genetic, and the odds are relatively even across the board. The only reason it seems that Christian societies have a higher number is because it is regarded as an abomination in conservative Islamic societies. It's one area in which I wish the region would lighten up on, they act about it in the same way Pat Robertson does. I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
That being said, maybe it depends on how one defines an "extremist". Executing a man for changing religions seems very extreme to most Americans, and I'm sure its extreme to alot of Muslims, but to those in power in Afghanistan, and to other very fundamental Muslims its no big deal. I'll say my main point again. Americans were, in my opinion, sold a false bill of goods by the administration, as to the sweeping changes brought about by new constitutions and governments in Afghanistan and Iraq. These changes weren't as big as we were led to believe and the old ways still prevail. Most Americans are not willing to spend the lives of American troops to bring about governments that are arguably just as oppresive as the ones replaced. I'm all for hunting down UBL and Al Quida, and for removing the threat of WMD but I feel that sending mostly Christian American troops to die in order to set up a government that then wants to execute a man for becoming a Christian is very wrong. I was speaking idiomatically. |
And low crime rates have absoloutely fuck all to do with respecting human rights.
Executing someone on the basis of his religious affiliation doesn't strike me as respect for one's human rights. What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Last edited by lordjames; Mar 30, 2006 at 11:09 PM.
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Also, the US and the economically powerful nations have an obligation to prevent human rights abuses globally regarded as vile and reprehensible, but not one to interfere when the issue is the result of a different interpretation of the values of a nation. In particular, I reference the difference between genocide and execution for adultery, or in this case, apostacy. The fact of the matter is, a nation has the right to chose its own laws, and the US has no right to tell them whether or not they are justified. If a majority of Afghanistan believes that he should be executed and the system of laws in Afghanistan leans towards that, then I'm afraid hes a victim of that. Curse and damn their laws all you want, I won't be hesitating, but at the same time, its simply not our decision.
Look at things in the broader context and not their direct relation, or you'll be blinded by the sheer depth and complexity of these issues.
FELIPE NO |
I could just justify slavery by saying that this is a culturally norm and therefore acceptable. I could say that our culture kills everyone with a mark on their left cheek and that statement in itself would justify those killings. Your standard fails because there is an objective moral standard to judge these things, and no bullshit relativism will ever discount that.
Relativism fails by its own justification. The view that everything is relative is a relative p.o.v. and therefore cannot be regarded as truth. What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Last edited by lordjames; Mar 31, 2006 at 12:07 AM.
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Jam it back in, in the dark.
LlooooydGEEEOOORGE
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Fuck it ,man i know Islam and i know that no where its written in Islamic Principles that behead those who change thier way from Islam,infact God will takecare of those people in life hereafter. I hate to see nations like Afghanistan having no concept of what real Islam is, yet claim their validation.Such stupid nations spoil the whole image,futher giving , guys like Wesker an "Excuse" to bash and pluck out problems in the religion even more. When i heard the news of this man, i knew and still believe that its a conspiracy,the issue is "made" to be "heated" up. Really, there are more Human rights issue to deal with in US herself(child pornos at large,no?) than infiltrating policies of other nations. Double Post:
Can they ,ofcourse they can't. US is disliked by many countries aroud the wrold 'cause of its inhumane policies not "just" by Muslim countries and its a well known fact not a "relative" concept and you know that. So "first" a nation herself should be wise and clean,before pointing fingers at others. Dont fuck others if you like to fuck yourself. There's nowhere I can't reach.
Last edited by Sexninja; Mar 31, 2006 at 02:08 AM.
Reason: Automerged double post.
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Instead I get a smart-ass remark. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
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