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French Jobs Law Failure
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Adamgian
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 06:46 PM #1 of 31
French Jobs Law Failure

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French jobs law climbdown
Prime minister says he regrets failure of proposed legislation

Monday, April 10, 2006 Posted: 0927 GMT (1727 HKT)

PARIS, France (AP) -- President Jacques Chirac, bowing to intense pressure from students and unions, announced plans Monday to replace a contested jobs law that fanned large protests and strikes across France.

Chirac's office said a new plan focusing on youths from troubled backgrounds will replace the "first job contract," which would have made it easier for companies to fire workers under 26.

The move comes as a blow to Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who had championed the law despite weeks of protests across the country.

Acting on a proposal from Villepin, his longtime protege, Chirac decided to "replace" a key provision of the law with a measure aimed at "youths in difficulty," a statement from the president's office said.

The conservative government has pushed the law as a way to reduce high unemployment among French youths.

Chirac enacted the law earlier this month, but immediately suspended it to give ruling conservative lawmakers the chance to meet with unions and look for a way out of the crisis.

Unions were expected to make their own announcement Monday about whether to stage more of the protests and strikes that have shut down universities and tangled traffic in recent weeks -- and cast a shadow on what is likely to be Chirac's last year in office.

A visibly somber Villepin, speaking moments after Chirac ordered the measure replaced, said he had hoped to act quickly to reduce soaring youth joblessness. "This was not understood by everyone, I'm sorry to say."
What do other people think? I'm dismayed that this law failed. It was a chance for the French to finally start getting their labor market in order and start dealing with the issues they faced, and yet ignorant fools at the Sorbornne and employees who expect lifelong employment and can't adjust to a changing world triumphed. It's a sad day for France and for Europe, now the French join the ranks of Italy and have the joy of becoming a state in decline.

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god
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 06:55 PM #2 of 31
This is just a symptom of the larger French refusal to really embrace anything foreign. The racism exhibited towards immigrants in France (especially those of African origin) is remarkable. The French have been ignoring this problem for years and it has finally come back to bite them in the ass. I guess we won't see as many liberals claiming that they want to move to France because it's so much better than the US.

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PUG1911
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 08:11 PM #3 of 31
Originally Posted by god
This is just a symptom of the larger French refusal to really embrace anything foreign. The racism exhibited towards immigrants in France (especially those of African origin) is remarkable. The French have been ignoring this problem for years and it has finally come back to bite them in the ass. I guess we won't see as many liberals claiming that they want to move to France because it's so much better than the US.
I've yet to see liberals claim they want to live in France. They've often been told to go there though.

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The_Griffin
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 08:50 PM Local time: Apr 10, 2006, 06:50 PM #4 of 31
May I ask what was so utterly terrible about this law that it sparked protests?

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Fjordor
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 10:14 PM Local time: Apr 10, 2006, 11:14 PM #5 of 31
Are you familiar with the probationary period that exists with American employers? Basically, a new employee has to be very good on the job for a certain amount of time (6 months, I think), or else they risk termination without cause.
As I recall, one of the things that French law did was to extend that probationary period to a 5 year limit instead, and this was a big bonus for companies, while a big negative for employees.
I do not think this is the whole of the issue one bit, but it is a small aspect of it.

I was speaking idiomatically.
xen0phobia
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 10:21 PM #6 of 31
"The CPE would have allowed employers to fire workers 26 years old and younger at any point during their first two years on the job. Young people and unions responded bitterly, arguing that the measure would rob them of current job protections. "

Interesting that the students and unions would claim a victory. Exactly who won here? The students still won't have a job when they graduate. Chase jobs away and keep 22% unemployement. Economically it makes no sence.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Last edited by xen0phobia; Apr 10, 2006 at 10:51 PM.
Yggdrasil
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 11:53 PM Local time: Apr 10, 2006, 08:53 PM #7 of 31
The new law might've taken away job protections for the French youth but job protection means nothing if you don't have a job to protect in the first place, as evidenced by France's 22% unemployment rate for their youth. But whatever, if they want to keep those protections in place its their choice.

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Fjordor
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Old Apr 10, 2006, 11:55 PM Local time: Apr 11, 2006, 12:55 AM #8 of 31
What I want to know is why something like that is inhibiting job growth to begin with.
Why can't the companies stop being such pansies, and take some risk in hiring those people?

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Old Apr 11, 2006, 12:06 AM Local time: Apr 10, 2006, 11:06 PM #9 of 31
Well, let's say they make a mistake, and pick a total slacker who happened to do well in the interview or something. Now they're stuck with him forever. Nobody wants to take that level of risk...and if it means being a "pansy" then so be it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Fjordor
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 12:10 AM Local time: Apr 11, 2006, 01:10 AM #10 of 31
Originally Posted by Dhsu
Well, let's say they make a mistake, and pick a total slacker who happened to do well in the interview or something. Now they're stuck with him forever. Nobody wants to take that level of risk...and if it means being a "pansy" then so be it.
Funny thing is, if it weren't for whiny unions demanding their way, I am sure this would have been of no concern in the first place. After all, what else is preventing them from firing employees for reduced or poor performance?

Ah, it is funny how the left wing always manages to tie itself into knots of laws that can only be remedied by more laws.

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Yggdrasil
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 12:12 AM Local time: Apr 10, 2006, 09:12 PM #11 of 31
Don't French companies also offer employee benefits to their workers? Just look at American airlines right now, their workers want their benefits, but airline companies can't stay healthy as a corporation by keeping those benefits. At the same time they can't just layoff hundreds if not thousands of employees because then their unions will act up. and if I remember correctly you can't just file for Chapter 11 like before and just use it as a union buster. French employers probably have similiar concerns, where if all of a sudden business turns sour and you can't turn the kind of earnings to keep your employees and company balance books happy then you're going to be in an aweful lot of trouble.

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Old Apr 11, 2006, 05:37 AM Local time: Apr 11, 2006, 06:37 PM #12 of 31
There are valid claims for both sides. The measure was meant to help the "youth" be employed. But having no job security is almost the same as having no employment at all. Hehe as an employer though that be cool. I wouldn't have to go through the normal hassles of having to discharge an employee and go through all that paperwork.

Anyway why should I say this? Because as an employee I'll potentially never get anywhere with that hiring scheme. Even here with the six month preliminary work for security tenure I see a lot of companies not following this. They actually hire someone for at least 5 months then immediately discharge him/her. It still doesn't guarantee any form of job security when you come to think about it.

This hiring scheme also lacks any possible increase or sustenance of motivation for these workers when any positive performance does not guarantee a stable paying job.

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Adamgian
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 06:42 AM #13 of 31
Quote:
There are valid claims for both sides. The measure was meant to help the "youth" be employed. But having no job security is almost the same as having no employment at all. Hehe as an employer though that be cool. I wouldn't have to go through the normal hassles of having to discharge an employee and go through all that paperwork.

Anyway why should I say this? Because as an employee I'll potentially never get anywhere with that hiring scheme. Even here with the six month preliminary work for security tenure I see a lot of companies not following this. They actually hire someone for at least 5 months then immediately discharge him/her. It still doesn't guarantee any form of job security when you come to think about it.

This hiring scheme also lacks any possible increase or sustenance of motivation for these workers when any positive performance does not guarantee a stable paying job.
Ever seen statistics though? 22% unemployment is no joke, and if its that high, the French don't really have a choice. You get job security after two years, so work and do a good job. The French economy is in decline, it is less competetive, and won't remain the titan it currently is for much longer.

Also, France is probably the most diametrically opposed country to globalization. A majority of its people for example, aspire to get jobs with the state (only 32% want to be in the private sector), and there are other stats just as disturbing.

This law would have started in making the French competitive for international investment, but unions and their complete lack of foresight shelved it.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Monkey King
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 10:06 AM Local time: Apr 11, 2006, 09:06 AM #14 of 31
My thoughts were that young workers were essentially facing a continuous string of low-wages jobs up until they're 26, putting a serious crimp in their efforts to begin building a stable financial foundation for themselves. With a 22% unemployment rate, there is no shortage of people looking for a job, so it is every bit in a company's best interest to continuously turnover young workers so that nobody stays on long enough to earn significant wage increases.

In the US, places like movie theaters, grocery stores, and Wal-Mart actually count on the high turnover rate of minimum wage jobs so that they don't ever have to pay anybody very much above minimum wage. Even the managers are encouraged to move on after a while. This law would ensure this sort of behavior no matter where you worked, meaning you'd have to wait until 26 to even think about starting a career.

It was just a nasty, underhanded way to exploit the current unemployment situation, and Homey wasn't playing that. It's not just American businesses who are looking to fuck their workers in the ass any way they can.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Pez
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 10:50 AM Local time: Apr 12, 2006, 02:50 AM #15 of 31
Isn’t it rather fanciful to assume that you would actually get “job security” after the two year period?

There are some immediate implications and practical concerns. Some questions to get you thinking…

If these French labour laws had been passed, would there be anything to prevent employers sacking people approaching the age of 26 (or at the end of the two years) and replacing them with younger people on less expensive wages?

Imagine you as the owner of a company. Would you be more inclined to hire someone aged over 26 given your business would enjoy greater flexibility employing a younger jobseeker? We’d decide things on merit, is what you’d probably say –but what if your unscrupulous competitors were exploiting the youth, in order to drive operating costs down: would you then adopt their practices in order to stay competitive? Hmm.

As a young worker, do you think a bank or financial institute would be more or less likely to grant you a personal loan (eg. for housing, personal enterprise/small business) given the unpredictable nature of your employment (and ability to repay the debt)? Another potential problem.

Competitiveness and increased international investment is indeed a fair point, although there is no guarantee that the lowest paid workers will be compensated adequately if at all for their current level of labour protection. It is naïve to expect the most disadvantaged to make sacrifices for the greater good of the wider economy. You also can’t expect people to see any long term economic benefit to be a good prospect for them if they feel they are at risk of being exploited immediately or in the long term. Such issues don’t even factor into their thinking.

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Adamgian
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 11:34 AM #16 of 31
Quote:
My thoughts were that young workers were essentially facing a continuous string of low-wages jobs up until they're 26, putting a serious crimp in their efforts to begin building a stable financial foundation for themselves. With a 22% unemployment rate, there is no shortage of people looking for a job, so it is every bit in a company's best interest to continuously turnover young workers so that nobody stays on long enough to earn significant wage increases.

In the US, places like movie theaters, grocery stores, and Wal-Mart actually count on the high turnover rate of minimum wage jobs so that they don't ever have to pay anybody very much above minimum wage. Even the managers are encouraged to move on after a while. This law would ensure this sort of behavior no matter where you worked, meaning you'd have to wait until 26 to even think about starting a career.

It was just a nasty, underhanded way to exploit the current unemployment situation, and Homey wasn't playing that. It's not just American businesses who are looking to fuck their workers in the ass any way they can.
At the same time though, France's labor market is so secure and protected that companies just don't want to take the risk hiring people since firing them for incompetence is virtually impossible.

Also, a temporary job is better than no job, even at minimum wage. If people just made a little money running between jobs, it would be better for the economy than the current situation of just not having one.

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Old Apr 11, 2006, 11:42 AM Local time: Apr 12, 2006, 12:42 AM #17 of 31
Why are you people unhappy about this? It's nice to see that people power still exists in the otherwise complacent world of western democracies.

A far greator threat to the job sercurity of everyone, not just youth, was passed in Australia and no one did a fucking thing about it. I admire the French.

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Phoque le PQ
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 12:28 PM #18 of 31
According to my uncle - he's been working in france for 3 years now- France is in decay. The 35 hours week is the worst thing that happened according to him. It'S nearly impossible to make overtime (those who do are looked down upon).

And in an economics class i had this trimester, i was told that this CPE was meant to break away the nearly-impossible fireing of an employee

Quote:
At the same time though, France's labor market is so secure and protected that companies just don't want to take the risk hiring people since firing them for incompetence is virtually impossible.
exactly

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Old Apr 11, 2006, 12:38 PM Local time: Apr 12, 2006, 01:38 AM #19 of 31
I can't believe you're overlooking the personal livlihoods of people for rubbish like "the national economy."

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Old Apr 11, 2006, 01:23 PM Local time: Apr 11, 2006, 12:23 PM #20 of 31
Are you being sarcastic?

The whole reason they were trying to pass this law is because 22% of the nation's youth don't even HAVE a livelihood.

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RABicle
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 01:29 PM Local time: Apr 12, 2006, 02:29 AM #21 of 31
But this law puts in danger the livelihood of the 78% who DO.

I like how in this day and age of aging populations, 22% youth unemployment isn't even uncommon. (Australia has 20%)

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Old Apr 11, 2006, 02:02 PM Local time: Apr 11, 2006, 09:02 PM #22 of 31
And this illustrates why living in France is both an awesome and extremely annoying thing, nowadays.

The French contestation culture is that double edged sword which gave this country it's unique political, social and historical destiny eversince the 1789 French revolution. The French people became famous for being a people who know when to stand up for it's rights, and it brought us all kind of advantages among the years ... as well as disadvantages.

Worse, French people arent what they used to be. When there is indeed something noble in people risking their lives fighting for they think is fair like in all of our revolutions, when there is indeed something admirable in workers rebelling against the exploitation they're victims of, when there is even something kinda understandable in that farce of a war against power that was May 1968 ... there is simply something pathetic when seeing March 2006 edition students yelling in the streets what basically comes down to saying " I WANT A COOL QUIET JOB LIKE DADDY ".

De Villepin was of course an ass to act the way he did. Trying to pass his law en force. I mean, you can't be prime minister of France and know French people so badly, can you?

The extremist leftists commies anarchist nihilists "my dad buys the cars I set on fire" students of the Sorbonnes were too happy to take the opportunity to re-enact May 1968 scenes and awaken public opinion. It's important to know that such students are kind of a tradition in every French universities eversince the 70's.

So they start blocking universities all over the territory. Labour Unions eventually join in, and then all your ordinary pacifist white dude with dreadlocks 16~20yo join in because, well, why not. It's soon a good part of France's students that are in the streets, backed up by leftist labours.

So there: we went from a communist/nihilistic/anarchist action to a kiddie march surrounded by Labours Unions members usually all working for the State. Only in France. <_<

They then try to get the other workers in but with few sucesses. The suburbs youth try to join in. Youth and labours go "hurray" until Rachid, Abdula and Mamadou start beating the shit out of everyone. I think those are still the less hypocrites of the bunch. Well anyway of course youth will yell at policemen that they didnt defend them, when they were themselves throwing bottles to the same policement a couple minutes before... But there I'm getting carried away again ...

SO, marches, demonstrations, blockings, illegal occupations ... That's March 2006 in France. Fortunately very few violences take place after the early days suburb kids attacks.

Politically, left is blaming right, as usual. It would even seem that the only politicians left in this country are the right wingers, as the left is making analogies after analogies describing the whole french populace oppressed by the vicious right wing.

Then Chirac mumbles stuff about validating-but-rediscussing-or-maybe changing-things-here-and-there-and-hum-what-was-I-saying... and simply cancels the law a few days after. If there were still people hesitating on wether he got strange longwinded strategies or is just plain fucking stupid ...

So yeah, French people is happy. It had it's oppresor's head on a pike and can proceed on it's nationalist impulse to invade a few countries or fund a visionary republic... Except this time the head on a pike are just words in the air and that they'll come back to their spoiled little lives while other laws are rewritten behind their backs.

Of course we all know that kind of stuff can only last so long ... France these days is basically a prostitute who won't aknowledge it. It's been benefitting of the world economy and capitalist ways for decades and wants to pretend otherwise. Capiltalism, mercantilism and globalization may be despicable concepts to some, we still chosed to walk that path years ago. The naive masses ones need to understand it and the few real revolutionaries need to shut the fuck up and fly the hell out of Cuba or some other commie *paradise*.

I personaly have confidence that when the time will come that it's truly too late, French people will have the strenght to provoke the traditional national impulse that will get us back on tracks. Also, Sarkosy comin liek wut ~

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 02:09 PM Local time: Apr 12, 2006, 03:09 AM #23 of 31
Are you a fence sitter or what? Stop disguising opinion in words.

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niki
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 03:00 PM Local time: Apr 11, 2006, 10:00 PM #24 of 31
Originally Posted by RABicle
Are you a fence sitter or what? Stop disguising opinion in words.
I think I made my opinion perfectly clear when describing myself as a pro-Sarkozy ...

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Old Apr 11, 2006, 03:19 PM Local time: Apr 11, 2006, 10:19 PM #25 of 31
Villepin's biggest mistake was passing the law by force, if he took the regular law-making way, it would have had a much better chance. Chirac didn't help out either, reacting too late as usual, only adding fuel to the fire, and in the end weakening his PM's position. And of course there's Sarkozy, who couldn't help but make sneer remarks. I won't even mention the opposition, since imo they didn't even try to take advantage of the situation.

I personally am not too pleased with Villepin giving in. More andmore students are not happy that they can't go to the classes that they need to pass their exams because of the protests, and if Villepin would have held on for a couple of weeks maybe, the protest would have died out. What has happened now, is that the students know that they can achieve their goals with pressure, and they don't stop at the CPE, but they are going after the other law that was passed the same way (forgot the name).

In Belgium, we had some difficulties last year, which our so-called "Generation Pact", which forces people to work a few years longer, until 58 before they can go on early retirement. We had weeks of strikes, but the government didn't give in, and in the end, the unions didn't have any other option but agree with the pact.

I agree with Niki, Sarkozy has the best chance of becoming the next president, Villepin is hated and humiliated, so it would be foolish of him to try, and the socialists just don't have the right appeal. If Sarkozy is a good choice, I'm not sure.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
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